Chaos_Umbra

I think this is the key thing that WG have forgotten... it doesn't matter if the spreadsheet says they're fine if whenever they are played you wished you were in another ship instead... I mean the whole goal of the game is to have fun and if the line is frustrating cause of all the limitations that they have added to the ships just so they can have this lacklustre SAP ammo and a very short smoke with only a few charges just don't weigh up. Positive? Gimmicks apparently SAP, not really a positive in any situation... Fuel Smoke, strong consumable but have so few that you are afraid to use them.... High Speed, on some of them... Tight turning circle, so you loose more speed when dodging... High Muzzle Velocity, great for the AP... wait the SAP shells are faster and it actually hinders SAP performance as you cannot use it at long range and have to get close to use it... Negative traits to balance out Long reload Slow Rudder shift Bad concealment Bad armour Massive Citadel Bad AA No Hydro No Def AA There is quite a shift in the negative traits section and the 'positives' are not really all positives...

So how many of them were obliging broadsiding glue sniffers? I played the ship on the PTS sure the pen angles have been improved since then, but the underlying characteristic of SAP that favours slow floaty shells remains, I was able to get 10k plus salvos on RN, MN and USN T10 BBs with it from it's old max range cause the shells fell almost vertically from above and is matches you had to be be that far away as your survive-ability is worse than a Molotov in every aspect, only thing I found it good at was devstrike-ing Kirovs, cause 50mm Citadel armour... I just find the whole concept of the new shells a complete negative and adversely affect the enjoyment factor of the ships, this is before we consider they have some of the worst rudders (so good for dodging shells not... also as they are long ships it is actually impossible for them to have tight turning circles unless WG suddenly forgot about Hydrodynamics for this line), worst concealment and largest citadels, Pensacola is a BB compared to these ships and has a better alpha strike. What was wrong with basing the gameplay on that of the Duca, cause it isn't like we needed another line of max range spam a single ammo type cruisers in the game...

The issue is that Chappy actually has a smaller citadel, has better detection and a faster rudder, which all together make it a much better ship at avoiding being hit, also it can still damage bow on targets and has radar and Hydro for dealing with DDs... Yeah I would like to see someone carry a game in an Amalfi where they are the only ship left on their team against a DD and 1 cruiser that knows to just point his bow at you...

My vote would be on this: HMS Dido

If you read the blurb on all the mid to low tier Italian cruisers it says they had good armour for their time and in their class... even the Trento that has a larger citadel than the Molatov with worse armour... I think the Gimmick (Balance) department is not talking to the modelling and historical research departments at WG otherwise we wouldn't have such a mess with most of the most recent additions to the game...

Yeah I hated the Lion the guns were so wonky I had a salvo completely bracket a broadside Worcester at 6.2km with none hitting it at all and had the rear turret miss a broadside Lion at 2.4km, left barrel went high left, middle barrel went low into the water and the right barrel went high right... all missed,. Got a decent WR in it but I think that was more luck with MM and teams than the ship being any good, at least the Conqueror has some accuracy and thus you can switch to AP from time to time...

The only times I get really vocal on the forums is when WG do something that will be detrimental to the game, so far there have been 3 such times; RN BBs with the stupid HE 'gimmick' Research Bureau cause all it is there for is using up Free Xp and making people use money to convert Xp to get better T10 ships rather than actually trying to entice more people to play the mid-tiers that will improve the life of the game Italian Cruisers, cause they were 1 of the lines I was most looking forward too as I like my Duca's game-play and we end up with this rubbish that is the complete opposite In hindsight I think I have been correct on all cases...

The only T6 Cruiser it can out spot is the Graf Spee and that has massive guns and a heal... I would prefer to play the Pensacola over the Trento cause it is better at what the Trait of the Italian cruisers (Decided by WG) large Alpha strike!

They need an entire rework not just balancing tweaks, the entire line was dead on the following traits; SAP and no HE Long main battery reload Poor concealment Poor range Long rudder-shift No Hydro or other utility skills It is the combination of all of these that ruins the ships as they cannot make any plays in any situation I would always pick Duca D'Aosta or Abruzzi over the tech tree alternatives... for how fun they are and that they are not hindered by any gimmicks.

And the WG 'Gimmick' Department... I mean 'Balancing' Department still haven't learnt otherwise we would not be getting the absolutely horrific Italian cruisers, and I was looking forward to a techtree line like the Duca D'Aosta same as it was with the Warspite and RN BBs... I always feel sorry for the WG Ship Modelling Department when they make these great 3D models of these historic ships only for them to be Gimmick'd to oblivion...

Well haven't quite got the Thunderer yet (50k coal short), but I do enjoy the Vanguard, I will say it is not a strong ship if you are looking for hard hitting guns and tankyness, what it does have is a very good rudder, good concealment and accurate guns, so while they struggle to citadel really well armour'd BBs they do well against equal tier and below BBs and handle most cruisers well, and the HE isn't bad either so you have options when the AP falls short. I did take it out once in the last ranked sprint and was able to reliable get 11-15k salvos on Bismarcks and Tirpitz when they were broadside, Vladivostoks were a bit harder to deal with. It kinda plays a bit like an openwater heavy cruiser where you want to use both ammo types depending on the situation. Is it worth the price? Well if you are like me and liked the Warspite and hated the techtree RN BBs (due to the nonexistent accuracy) then it is probably a good pick especially if you are used to openwater cruiser gameplay, if you want a BB for getting in close and brawling or tanking then it is probably not for you it is easy to get citadel'd when broadside and eats a tone of HE damage. As for the Thunderer, from what I've heard it is like the Vanguard but on a Conqueror hull with the 18" guns so the guns hit hard and are accurate at the expense of loosing the supper heal. So it is really down to your own preference whether you would rather beable to print new ship mid game or actually be able to hit things beyond 2km unlike the techtree ships...

Totally called that this will be detrimental to the line from the moment the first initial stats were released I knew this entire line was ruined... I'll just have to keep enjoying a proper Italian Cruiser the Duca D'Aosta!

People seem to forget (and WG as well) that the designation CL only applies to the size of the guns so in theory if you took a Tirpitz and replaced all the main guns with a load of Koenigsburg turrets it would still be a CL despite the ridiculous armour on it, just cause it is a CL is no reason why it can't have the 27mm armour. Also another issue with the ship is that the turrets from the Koenigsburg have only 20mm armour so even DD HE can knock them out easily...

I knew this would happen as soon as they posted the initial stats, and first thing I thought was oh no this line is dead before it even goes through further balancing, I was so hyped when they ships were first announced then when the gimmicks were announced I knew they were dead. Was looking forward to them cause; A- they look nice and B- I enjoyed the game-play of the Duca so much. In the end they are more of the same shoot 1 ammo type from max range and pray you don't get torped or BB'd. I even grind-ed the PTS Research Bureau just to confirm my fears so I tried out the T6, it had 2nd worst Rudder of the tier (No dodging here), the worst concealment of the tier, equal 2nd best speed of the tier, worst armour scheme of the tier worse reload than a Pensacola and 2 less guns, and below average shell velocity (Same as Aoba but with a lot more shell drag, the shells came down almost vertical at 12km range) & lastly no utility (Hydro etc). Then onto the SAP ammo, basically in any broadside situation SAP was better than AP especially against Kirovs as SAP citadels them (So anyone grinding the Kirov finish the grind before the next patch) and for dealing with BBs you want to be max range as then the shells came down vertical and you got 10k+ salvos, even against T10 BBs (except Kremlin, GK & Yamato). If any ship is closer than your rainbow arcs appear and is bow on well the only way to damage them was with torps... A prime example of a gimmick doing more harm than good just like RN BB HE... Well at least while a lot of the RN CAs are not much in the looks department they do at least seem to have reasonable and fun characteristics... As for the SAP I could actually see it doing really well on Italian BBs as a gimmick, especially with Roma that has an Overpen issue with broadside cruisers closer than 12km (Obviously with the SAP alpha lower than the AP alpha).

Well I suppose it would work on the Duca quite well but I still wouldn't need Torp acceleration buffed and expert loader is not that useful as the reload is already good, his special talents also lean towards long range fire support, which is not Duca's strength either, the skills all contradict each other in terms of what ship they suit (including the special tallents) looks like they would work best on a Zao or something, even then torp accel isn't that useful...

Isn't that a wasted perk as there is almost 0 reason to change from SAP to AP cause unless you can guarantee your shot will get 2 citadels, you will always do more damage with SAP than AP? Another result of the stupid gimmick...

Changes make no difference, the entire line failed with the entire SAP and long reload concept, Balancing needs to go back to the start and redone, cause as it is, I will just stick with my Duca D'Aosta if I want fun and if I want a bore fest then I might play the tech tree ships...

Well maybe a better turning circle and cause it has torps and hydro it will be easier to push in it.

Well at least the ships are not too overloaded with gimmicks that do more harm than good for example the Italian cruisers, for example I was really looking forward to the Italian cruisers when first announced, but when the first stats came out with all those gimmicks I immediately lost all interest exactly like with the RN BBs when they were turned into inaccurate Flamethrowers completely the opposite of the Warspite almost exactly like how the new Italian cruisers are the complete opposite in play-style to the Duca D'Aosta. At least with these RN CAs I at least see that they have a reasonable starting point to further balance rather than being a complete lost cause from the get go with the gimmicks...

Not saying spam from max range is bad just saying that it is more of the same, just without the fires and with bow on targets being impervious, just a massive disappointment that one of the lines I was most looking forward to due to how much I enjoy playing the Duca is gonna have the complete opposite game-play that is basically the same as the IJN, RU, MN & Germans, only difference being that all of those ships actually have a reason to change ammo types and can actually damage bow on ships...

More proof that the new Cruisers are meant to be played at range... Like 80% of the other cruiser lines... More of the same...

I tried the T6 when we were able to try them on the PTS and it was seriously god awful and only good for spamming SAP from max range, also there is 0 incentive to change ammo against a broadside target unless you can guarantee at least 2 citadels cause you would do more damage with the SAP otherwise. And I don't want an OP line I just want a line that follows the fun game-play and traits that my Duca D'Aosta has (Speed, Amazing Rudder Shift, good armour (when angled correctly), good shell velocity when at optimum ranges with good AP balanced by the anaemic HE, but with a good rate of fire) very much suited to supporting DDs in caps and ambushing broadside ships at close range, in stead they have some of the slowest rudders of their tiers, they have an ammunition type that basically makes it pointless to switch to AP in 90% of cases while being unable to damage bow on ships and guns with an awful reload and no Hydro plus poor concealment. Not gimmick ridden... Speshul SAP Ammo Awful reload No Hydro on a cruiser Fuel Smoke Terrible armour That's a lot more gimmicks than most lines... Also not high risk you stay at max range as shell velocity doesn't affect the SAP ammo, I tested on the PTS with the tier 6 you can get over 10k salvos from max range on T10 BBs with SAP, if you try and get close welll you have worse armour than a Molatov... I have watched the reviews on youtube and Rarely has anyone switched ammo or been close than 14km from any target while easily doing 15-20k Salvos with SAP on BBs... totally fun and totally not similar to long range HE spam, compared to the close range knife-fighting of the Duca D'Aosta... Also I have only seen 1 review of a ship below tier 8!!! You don't need a Box O gimmicks for every new line, just the Fuel Smoke would have been enough, though I would have changed the duration so it only lasts 20 secs across the board but you have more of them, just to push that it is more of a disengagement tool.

Shame the release is so close (cause it would mean that there is still a chance of them being majorly changed like the RN Cruisers were), as I was excited when the ships were first announced and now I have no interest in them due to how they have been gimmick'd into a boring play-style... Such a waste...Please for the love of GOD don't do the same with the RN Heavy Cruisers but I have 0 faith that it will happen considering how gimmick ridden the other RN lines are...

@Tanatoy Is it just missing but only the T10 has secondaries in the stats and none of the others despite them having 102mm or 113mm dual purpose guns and also there are no stats listed for the range, reload or shell info for said secondaries?

Yep you are correct and it is really irritating