Syrchalis

Maybe, just maybe consider that a person might just be good at a game?

With that wretched Defensive AA cheat-consumable it can make a 7.2km radius a pure deathzone for planes. Not only can you not bomb anything for 40 seconds, the DP guns actually shoot down 2-3 planes per half second even at the most outer edge of that radius. "Pick a different target" is not a solution to this. Just because there aren't many Baltimores around right now, doesn't mean it stays that way and thus doesn't make this anywhere near balanced. If you would ever face 3 of them in the same team, there would be no ship on the entire map you could even remotely try to attack. Any Iowa or Montana with a Baltimore around has complete and utter immunity to carrier attacks. No other ship has this kind of a hard counter or inability to do anything at any given time in the game. I agree in low tiers CV should really get a nerf, AA get a buff and so forth, but in T8+ CVs border on uselessness if a team utilizes their tools correctly. Merely the fact that T8+ is filled with noobish Atlantas and Atagos that have no idea of what their role is or what their tools can do allows carriers to be relevant.

I said it in the game - consider maybe that I actually know what I am doing? I do pretty okay even in the worst of games, because I know what I can do. So taking me as average is a big mistake. Your team was split up to hell and that's why I could bomb SOMETHING. If your team had stayed in a 7.2km radius around you I wouldn't have had over 500XP that game. You were a single Baltimore with a split up team. Imagine 3 Baltimores with a team that stays close to them. Is it fair that a CV is completely useless then? I don't see DDs, CL/CAs or BBs ever be "completely useless", because noone has an ability that hard-counters them nearly as badly. The only ability that is about a third as effective as Defensive AA Fire is Smoke Screen, but that only applies to the DD itself (mostly) has a tiny radius, lasts shorter and doesn't deplete the damage potential of enemies. Imagine CVs would get an ability that makes their planes take 80% less damage for 40 seconds. That would be justice - not balanced, but it would be the closest you can get to Defensive AA Fire.

40 seconds is simply too long. I'm sorry to all the cruisers, but denying proper aim to bombers in a 7km radius for 40seconds by not even doing anything at all is just unfair. Especially since there is no counterplay from CVs against it. There is literally NOTHING to beat this consumable. All you do is turn away and wait for it to run out and lose half your planes in the process of that. 1. I suggest that cruisers get a big fat icon over their ship if they use the ability so it's completely clear they use it even if you're not already in AA range with bombers. 2. The duration should go way down. CD can go down too. 3. Or remove the accuracy penalty of bombers, it already amplifies the damage of AA so much Note - on low tiers AA should get a general buff no matter if defensive AA fire gets nerfed. But in higher tiers (8+), in which BBs have enough AA to take down 1 plane per second at 5km range it's insult to injury.

There is two things you apparently don't get: 1. Planes are the SECOND HEALTH BAR of carriers. If EITHER (this means ONE of them, not both) reaches Zero the CV is useless. Either because he can't affect the game anymore or because he sunk. 2. High Tier BBs like the Montana oneshot Cruisers over 20km CONSISTENTLY. A carrier has to make 4+ runs to sink a Montana, while the Montana can possibly sink a cruiser every 30 seconds. You're dumb if you're trying to say that a carrier is OP due to the power of a successful bomb run. It's about the time it takes - a bomb run takes 3-4 minutes, a BB salvo takes 30 seconds to reload. One bomb run does NOT sink a cruiser, one BB salvo can easily do it. So being able to pick a target at will is a good advantage, but it comes at the cost of VERY LOW ATTACK COUNT per game.

TBH, that's as wrong as it gets. Your math is more made up than the argument of planes dropping like flies. You have no idea of how the code of the game works, so your math is worthless, as it is only based on the numbers the game gives you, which could be insanely inaccurate. You have never played CV yourself if you think that's made up. A cruiser popping Defensive AA Fire and the carrier turning his planes around will still result in the loss of 50% of your planes, which is essentially 100%, because the rest is so badly damaged it can't even approach a low BB with AA without being shot down entirely before it can drop bombs.

Kommt nur mir das so vor oder ist auf beiden Schiffen die Standard-Version der Fighter besser als die, die man kaufen muss? Kawanishi N1K5-A (stock) 153 kts 162 DPS 18 Loadout 1620 hitpoints Kyushu J7W1 (upgrade) 162 kts (+9) 148 DPS (-14) 17 Loadout (-1) 1820 hitpoints (+200) Wie komm ich jetzt darauf, dass die Kawanishi besser ist? Geschwindigkeit ist meiner Meinung nach stark überschätzt. Einholen kann man andere Flugzeuge eh nur sehr sehr langsam, selbst mit einem Geschwindigkeitsvorteil und auf der Map rumfliegen kann man damit auch kaum eine oder zwei Sekunden schneller. Die 200 Hitpoints sind gut, keine Frage, aber man verliert 14 Schaden pro Sekunde und kann 1 Sekunde weniger angreifen. Dazu kommt, dass man durch "Dogfighting Expert" WESENTLICH weniger Bonus bekommt, wegen der +9kts. Bei der Hakruyu sieht es ähnlich aus, da verliert man zwar keine DPS aber man gewinnt auch nur +140 Hitpoints. Außerdem sind die Stock Fighter 160kts "langsam", was gegenüber geupgradeten Midway Fightern ganze 20 kts sind - wodurch der Bonus von Dogfighting Expert relativ heftig sein müsste - richtig?

I highly suggest you try CV yourself first before you come with ignorant responses like this. And by "try CV" I mean - play at the very least T8 CV in a match with a few T10 Battleships and Cruisers. AA in low tier is pretty weak, rather fair in mid tier and ridiculously overpowered in high tier. By setting up your ship I was refering to selecting captain skills and installing upgrades. And you obviously never played CV before, because positioning as CV is harder and more important than on any other ship. Play one game on HOTSPOT with CV and you will know what I mean.

The whole problem with AA is that it's completely automatic and doesn't require anything from a player. Yes he has to setup his ship properly, but that's nothing that is part of an actual battle. Other ships have to setup their ships too for their roles, so that simply doesn't count. A CV has to work really hard in high tiers to do a successful bomb run, especially if the enemy is paying some attention. But that you lose almost all of your planes simply because of something that is completely automatic is ridiculous. The one button cruisers have to press to make you utterly useless isn't really doing much to improve the situation. If it was for me, AA guns wouldn't even fire if you didn't select a target - but that's the easy solution. The best solution would be if AA was a lot stronger, but you had to actually shoot and aim yourself. You could defend yourself really well from planes, but only if you are good enough and hit the planes. Automatic AA should be really goddamn weak, because it's automatic. If you want to have a powerful counter to CVs it should require player input and not just one button that makes you immune for 40sec, but something that requires your complete and undivided attention.

Get into higher tiers then. There are some noob Atago's who run around alone (but are still no targets for you because they can still deny you for 40sec) and a whole bunch of Pensacola's, New Orleans, Myoko's and Mogami's that escort all other ships. The only thing you can go for with ANY chance of hitting something and not losing all your planes are DDs.

Because there are 1-2 CVs per game and 5-10 cruisers. One cruiser covering a small area? Okay, but he isn't alone. There are at least 5 other cruisers doing the same.

Defensive AA Fire should simply not reduce accuracy at all. It is just too much of a hardcounter. Every other ability can be circumvented by skill or other abilities (smokescreen gets countered by hydroacoustic search, and even without that you can see the DD from time to time, giving you the chance for a shot). Repair of BBs is simply more effective HP for them. Hydroacoustic search doesn't make you immune to torpedos, it just makes it a lot easier to dodge them. Engine Boost for DDs doesn't make them immune to shells, just faster. But Defensive AA Fire makes it utterly impossible to attack a target, but not just that, it makes every ship in a giant radius invincible to planes. Unlike other abilities it also lasts for an eternity and has a low CD. In it's current state you should be able to use it ONCE per fight. Without the accuracy decrease it would be fair, because you would still lose a ton of planes BEFORE they attack, so your damage will be a lot lower. But at least you get a CHANCE to do SOMETHING and not be doomed to FOUR MINUTES of uselessness.

CBT player spotted, that didn't see any high tier BB since that time. You didn't even consider that its maybe not simply the ship.

So being completely unable to even touch a T9/10 BB because his automatic AA that he has not to control or otherwise interact with - that he didn't need to spend other resources on (like reduced firepower, speed etc.) is fair? Well then, let's remove T9/10 CVs and just limit them to low and mid tier games then. Because that's what you're saying.

Ok, since you at least had the decency to admit you have no idea how a CV plays in T8-10 - let me explain it from my perspective for once and maybe you can see my side, or at least understand where I am coming from. T8+ means right now there is a crapload of Atago's and Atlanta's. While especially Atago's are not that heavy on AA damage, they still can use defensive AA fire and make a 7km radius around them completely invulnerable to bombers. I'm not sure you know how bad your aim gets with defensive AA fire on - just imagine you are playing BB and your shells hit over an area of 10km in length and width. That's how bad it is. AKA you CANNOT attack during those 40 seconds at all. Now, ships are not balanced in terms of number - what I mean, there is 3-4 BBs, 1-2 DDs and like 8 cruisers per team. Meaning that even if half the cruisers are bad players who simply threw money at the screen (premium ships) the other half is still enough to cover the entire fleet in AA fire, making your job not hard, but impossible. No ship, and I mean NO SHIP except CV can be denied from their job THIS HARD and THIS LONG. BBs, CAs and DDs can ALWAYS shoot at the enemy, even if they are outnumbered or enemies use their abilities. The only things to stop those ships are islands and range, both which you can do something about. You CANNOT do anything about defensive AA fire. It's just 40sec of complete denial. Worse yet, you lose half your planes when turning around. The rest is so low on HP that they die even without the consumable afterwards. AKA you have to send a new squad and lost nearly 4 minutes of time and easily 20 planes. Okay, now that's not all. They also have that damned fighter plane, which does the exact same accuracy BS. And it doesn't even time out after 40seconds. Yes they are just a small issue for CVs, but it adds up. Let's assume for a moment only cruisers are left. Any ship can fight any ship. However, fast and agile cruisers with defensive AA fire and a fighter plane are basically invulnerable to CVs. I dont dare to even think about attacking them in my games. So half the enemy team is cruisers AKA close to immune to you. BUT WAIT, THERE IS MORE - and this is the real issue here. BBs at T8-10 get AA that puts those cruisers to shame. Even a Colorado (T7) can easily shoot down T8 planes in masses. If you look at the Iowa and Montana there is just no room for your planes. Now those people who grinded to T8+ learned something along the way and usually they have a cruiser escort. So their combined AA destroys your planes from 5km distance and if you ever manage to get into bombing range you can't hit anything, because of defensive AA fire. So you say now - pick a different target. Well guess what I say: There is no other target. What do you want me to do? Hunt super fast DDs? Attack the enemy CV that has 3 cruisers escorting him and has 80+ rating AA too? Now all this is assuming your enemy isn't retarded. If there are lone BBs, then good hunting. And I promise you, in higher tiers the amount of dumb people drastically decreases. I agree that low tiers really need more counterplay against CVs. In my Zuiho (T5) I occassionally get some free XP for myself and boy, it's a slaughter. Though at high tiers, the amount of NO-PLAYER-INTERACTION-REQUIRED counter against CV is just too damn high. I say AA shouldn't even fire automatically at all. It should only fire if you click a squad - then it's current OP state (in high tiers) is justified. And defensive AA fire only decreases accuracy of the focused squad - then the 40sec can stay.

Oh you know, playing a CV means you half to pay attention to 7 places at the same time, which is something 95% of the people here can't do, but still say "it's so easy". While sitting in a cruiser, pressing one button for your consumable is soooo hard. Oh wait, specialising in AA also takes considerable skill. You have to actually click things in the port and that under immense pressure of time. Seriously, you obviously never faced a T8-10 battle as a CV, so please don't try talking about something you don't know nothing about.

Maybe read what I wrote before you go through the trouble to post a link to a thread that has NOTHING to do with what I said. Cleveland is fine. It's T8-10 that I'm talking about.

That last part was awesome. Nice way to beat those border-hugging exploiters.

Die Hiryu ist definitiv ein großartiges Schiff. Anders als die Ryujo bietet sich bei der Hiryu das Strike-Setup nicht so sehr an, da man ein sehr gutes ausgeglichenes Deck bekommt, das Strike Deck aber kaum besser wird (IJN Divebomber sind ... nicht so wahnsinnig toll). Schaden macht man genug, auch ohne Strike Deck. Wer mir nicht glaubt:

Two things really annoy me: 1. Shift changing perspective in carriers, while also being used to queue commands and add/remove planes from squadrons. This is a modality and should be removed. 2. Ignoring common RTS controls by using left-click to give move/attack commands and right-click for minimap movement, deselection etc. While I can change controls, the defaults shouldn't contain modalities and follow standards, so most players don't have to change them. P.S.: I know some will be used to different standards and I know some might not be bothered by the modality.

I thought so too, but as you go on, you will notice how the IJN CV's are kind of superior. I played both lines and trust me, the Independence is the first ship on the US side you won't feel like a man with one arm. At T5 with the Zuiho you get three torpedo squads, which means six easy torpedo hits and nine if you are lucky. The six will sink any CV up to T7 even. And since you got three squads you can attack from different angles. Avoiding the single torpedo squad of the US carriers (they get 2 only at Tier 9!) is a cakewalk compared to the IJN bombers. Also your bombers get faster a lot earlier, which makes them much harder to shoot down (since they spend less time in enemy AA). If you really feel weak, try the first two US ships. The Langley will feel ok, the Bogue will be an extreme pain. Either way you will feel at least adequate in the Hosho.

As a big Hiryu player: I can understand you. I see the ranger as no threat to be honest. Fighter setup is annoying at best and all other setups are food for me. I play 2/2/2 exclusively.

It's hard enough to hit with them and even if you pull off a perfect hit with your manual aim, mostly only one or two will hit. Then they do a pathetic 1000-2000 damage and if you're unlucky not even set the ship on fire. It would feel a lot better if - when you manually aim and do a good job - at least some more would hit and the damage would be higher. The US divebombers, which deal about twice the damage and come in bigger groups feel kind of rewarding, but the IJN really make me want to feed them to enemy fighters. Don't get me wrong, I really like abusing divebombers to burn BB's damage control party and then flood them with torpedo's, but is that really the design behind the two types of bombers? That one is basically useless, except for the utility of fire, while the other does outrageously high damage?

Nice to see that others agree on this matter. I barely play DD anymore now, because I feel so gimped in this ship. If it at least had 3x3 Torpedo tubes it would allow one to cover a bigger area and so maybe make up for it.

TL;DR - I never thought I would say that in a game, but the risk/reward ratio is too high. I've played this game intensively for some time now, reached T6 in the US CV line and the wonderful Hiryu (T7) in the IJN CV line and noticed many things along the way. I will tell you about these things and to what conclusion I came at the end. I should add that I work as a game designer, so I might look at this in a different way than a (usual) player. 1. In low tiers CVs dominate Especially if you are the only carrier in the game. While the average DD, CL/CA or BB trades 1:1 on average, you will trade more like 3:1, if not better (ON AVERAGE!). Why is that? The two major risks for CVs are missing: - Strong AA from cruisers, combined with their consumable. - Other carriers to kill you (strike setup) or hunt down your bombers (fighter setup) The only thing that usually can bring you down is fast rushing DDs and Cruisers, if you don't move. However if you move you are basically save (except you are Bogue, in which case you should be gathering free XP on a different ship anyway). 2. In high tiers CVs struggle I admit, it just might be me, though from what I have read from some alpha-testers, it seems I'm not quite alone after all. With every game having at least 6 Clevelands spread over both teams and similar cruisers like Atago, Atlanta, Pensacola and so on - your available targets become next to none. I even went so far to target destroyers as main targets, because my impact there was the biggest (I'm pretty good at sinking DDs, even if they are paying attention). BBs and CVs tend to be protected by Cruisers (people cry about lack of teamwork all day, but I see good teamwork a lot). If that wasn't enough, BBs start having incredible AA as well (North Carolina... holy crap). But no, there is more - even bomber-heavy CVs have fighters now and the setups give the versatility to carry fighters without relying on the enemy team having a CV or two to be useful. 3. What I looked at So I looked at the best case scenario and the worst case for a bomber run. Now I will not look at edge-cases (aka extremely lucky or extremely unlucky cases). Worst case can be many things, but they all have in common - you lose all your planes in the air. This happens mostly due to cruisers, fighters and the strong AA of high tier BBs. Best case is you find a lone BB with weak AA but that has otherwise a very high impact on the battlefield. A single US torpedo squad can oneshot a T4 BB if all torpedos hit. With divebombers setting ships on fire, wasting their damage control party and another setting them on fire again combined with flooding from torpedobombers I could sink even high tier BBs in a single run. To summarize: Best case: 70.000+ Dmg, no planes lost, no time wasted evading anything Worst case: 0 Dmg, all planes lost, lots of time wasted evading fighters, cruisers and AA-heavy BBs 4. Conclusion CVs in high tiers simply lack consistency, because the difference between worst case and best case (not considering edge cases) is simply WAY too high. So how to fix it? Reduce risk, reduce reward. Yes I said it. I am a big fan of high risk, high reward, though I think here it's too much. Increase aircraft HP considerably, increase fighter damage too (to compensate), do NOT increase AA damage (so planes are harder to shoot down by AA, but not fighters), then finally reduce damage by torpedos and divebombers too. In low tiers this makes CVs less potent, because AA isn't an issue anyway (so the buff in this regard is irrelevant) but the reduced damage of bombers will decrease their impact. In high tiers this will significantly help CVs actually do something against a target that has either extreme AA itself or a ship with extreme AA nearby. They will still lose quite a few planes, but they might be able to drop at least half their bombs and torpedos. Now due to the reduced damage however, this won't have an impact like it would now, so the AA isn't suddenly obsolete, but at the same time AA doesn't make a ship completely invulnerable to bombers. 5. Edge Cases I left those out before, because they aren't relevant. Even with the changes I propose you can of course still lose all your planes due to stupidity or very bad luck and you can still oneshot a yamato with one torpedo - but what were worst/best case before will now become the edge cases and overall the performance of CVs in all tiers will be much closer together, which will allow Wargaming to balance it much more easily. Feel free to agree or disagree with reasons - I just want to say that I want carriers neither nerfed nor buffed. I just want them to be a fair entity in the game, that is both fun to fight as and against. English isn't my first language, so I apologize if what I wrote makes no sense or sounds weird.