Syrchalis

0/3/3 is better than the new stuff. But 2/2/2 is simply really really good.

Ok troll detected. That's not the only suggestion I made. You could also simply improve the AA of T9/10 IJN CV, you could improve their spread instead of making US spread worse. It's not like the developers lack parameters to play around with, though right now Essex/Midway parameters seem to be cranked to maximum, completely contrary to Taiho/Hakuryu.

@Pap I won't even bother explaining to you how what you're saying is neither relevant nor even remotely right. Maybe you will figure it out one day. You have to take into account that most of the time you won't just drop torps and be gone, but have to fly circle to get an acceptable angle. And Midway isn't untouchable, yes, but it does reduce your power enormously and it makes it impossible to attack in waves, because only in large numbers can you make sure something gets past that insane AA. And let me tell you about that one game again. I was escorted by Des Moines, AA ability ACTIVE and the Midway did not lose a single torpedo bomber, despite focused AA fire from us both. Either RNG of death or simply the fact that both Des Moines and Hakuryu have crappy AA DPS, either way it's still a T10 cruiser and T10 CV that together can't take down a single bomber plane. Meanwhile Midway reliably kills half my TBs when attacking.

Well, you tried I guess? Coming here, telling one of the view people who actually played up to Hakuryu with impressive stats that he can't dodge is pretty bold. Even more so, because you know nothing about T10 carrier play, since your highest ship is T8 and not even a carrier. If you knew anything you would know that T10 carriers have gigantic turning circles and extremely bad rudder shift times, so "dodging" is more like "turning in one direction, so the bombers need a little longer to position perfectly". And this thread isn't about CVs being stronger or weaker than BB/CA/DDs, it's about imbalance between different CVs, which is a completely different topic. So, maybe you should reflect on what you wrote before you decide to post it next time.

I can't really confirm what you write, because of two reasons. 1. I am taking into account the upcoming changes - with the ability to shoot down many squads at the same time Midway gains more power 2. Sniping is ever so present and I don't see that changing. Whenever I play my Hakuryu it's snipe or be sniped. That's another point where Midway is insanely superior to Hakuryu. Midway has the total initiative here. It can decide to NOT snipe the Hakuryu, because it's AA will protect it from being sniped. Add a cruiser and it's absolutely 100% impossible to even properly damage it. So if the Hakuryu decides to snipe, Midway wins, because Hakuryu wasted a whole run without any effect and Midway meanwhile destroyed a high value target. If the Midway decides to snipe, the Hakuryu has nothing to defend itself - usually only two fighters. One can be shot down very fast by the Midway fighter group and then bind the other, while 9-12 torpedos really really hurt the Hakuryu. Sinking a Hakuryu on the first run is easy, I've done it in my Hakuryu so many times. The Midway has the option to use their fighters offensively because it's AA protects it so damn well. The Hakuryu can't do that. So basically you are forced to play 4/2/2 on the Hakuryu or you will simply be sniped. In that case I guess they are somewhat even, but not entirely. We know from experience in the lower tiers that strike layout always wins against fighter, due to the fact that the fighters cannot be everywhere at once. If you spread your 4 fighters out only 1-2 will be in range of the attack. One will be bound and wiped out quickly by Midway fighters, the other can't even take down half the torpedo squad, due to low damage. Once the rest arrives the attack is over anyway and Midway can lose tons of planes unlike Hakuryu. With the patch and the AoE fighter ability I see this becoming even worse, because that 7 plane fighter squad of the Midway will gain A TON of power. They should really consider changing IJN spread. It doesn't need to be anywhere as tight as the US spread, because that might even be bad in some cases. Still I think it's a necessary buff, simply because IJN has lost 1-2 Torpedo bombers on ALL their CVs over the course of development.

Statistical data is very helpful when it comes to balancing, but the insanely grave inbalance they will create with 0.4.1 in terms of IJN versus USN CV is something you can predict with certainty. In lower tiers it might turn out somewhat balanced, since the 2/2/2 setups on Hiryu and Shokaku always have been amazing. It largely depends on the impact of the new fighter ability. But it's definitely a harsh nerf for low tier IJN CVs - which is good in a sense. So this cannot be predicted. HOWEVER - Unfortunately the high tiers are affected by the secondary changes too (the fighter ability, longer start/ready time) and were already biased heavily towards the USN CVs. There is no way this patch will help IJN CVs in high tiers and since it wasn't fair before the patch, it's certain that it won't be after it. So WG can act upon this even now. I would go so far and say that should even do something in the 0.4.1 patch. On the testserver they won't get any T10 data anyway, because either noone gets there or noone has the appropiate skill level to provide reasonable results. Whereas on the live server there are at least 50-100 good T10 CV players, who can somewhat test this. They might as well change something they think makes sense and test it on the liveserver, as it will only affect like 0,1% of the players anyway, but they can get some accurate feedback. High Tier balance is incredibly important. Right now not so much, but as soon as a reasonable amount of players gets there it makes ALL the difference between keeping them for like a YEAR or losing them after a month. That's an insane change in average lifetime which would mean a noticeable difference in revenue, since those players have a significantly higher percentage of paying users as well as a much higher ARPPU.

That wouldn't really help. US needs to be more vulnerable to bombers or lose their devastating bomber runs. Right now it's like this: Hakuryu attacking Midway: Midway shoots down ~4-10 Planes with insane AA Your DBs do no damage at all (only fires and only if you're really lucky) Your TBs have horrible spread and even a giant turd of a Midway will only take 2-3 Midway attacking Hakuryu Midway loses 0-1 TBs, because Hakuryu AA sucks balls TBs spread is so tight, if done correctly Hakuryu is INSTANTLY dead, just by the TBs DBs do some serious damage and have a lot better fire chance for some reason Essentially Midway has superior offense AND defense. That's grave imbalance. Especially so because Hakuryu has nothing to make up for it. It has not a single torpedo bomber more, it has no plane that is better than Midway's, it has less armor, less AA, less reserve planes. It's just horribly imbalanced. So 1vs1 you get raped badly. With 0.41 I think this will become A LOT worse. Especially because 1vs1 and 2vs2 will happen a lot more, thus making the balance between those four carriers a lot more important. I will even go so far and say (given equal skill) the side with more US Carriers will have a significantly higher winrate.

T4 has somewhat a torp nerf, because the torpedos dont start at the 8500 dmg that IJN has from T4 to T10, for US they start way lower at 5900 (but gets to 8500 after upgrade already). What's worse is that US get Divebombers with 7500 damage and IJN has 4600. US TB do nearly 10.000 damage and IJN TB 8500. US has the better fighters too. So yeah, balance. Add to that that high tier US already have been better and in 0.41 IJN can basically forget ever playing CV above T8. The two super tight spread TBs they get with Essex are just way too broken. Not just because it can oneshot a IJN CV right after the start if he has not at least 2 cruisers as protection, but also because he can oneshot other ships with that too, while IJN has to place torps perfectly to ever hit more than 2. Hitting 6 torps on USN TB is not super easy, but it's doable and that frequently. Hitting >2 IJN TB is NOT possible frequently. So US has better fighters, better TB, slower but harder hitting DB, AA that can put any cruiser to absolute shame and also more reserve planes. Does noone see how unfair this is? P.S.: I summarized what BS WG did in the OP again, in an easier to read way.

Well, as I see it US CVs will become 100% broken and unstoppable now. WIth the new fighter ability you punish lots of squadrons due to how the system works. This and it does friendly fire, meaning a Hakuryu with 4 fighters will destroy it's own fighters when engaging in a fight, while a fat 7 fighter squad of the Midway can just tear through the 4 fighter squads of the Hakuryu, without having to worry about friendly fire. This and the fact that they can now use fighter layouts without worry, as they will always face a CV. Since there have been no buffs to anything on the IJN part, only massive nerfs and they have worse fighters, worse TB and slightly better DB (the most worthless of the 3... amazing) I see no reason to touch my Hakuryu anymore after this change. The 2/3/3 setup for Hakuryu will be great, but that's all the positive I can get from this patch. I still firmly believe that any Midway with a brain will now super-rape any Hakuryu. Their one fighter squad combined with the 200+ AA rating of the midway will simply kill 80% of the IJN bombers, while their 12 super durable super tight-spread TBs will oneshot the Hakuryu who has essentially no AA. Given that right now a fighter squad of the Haku can't even kill half a TB squad, I doubt the ability will help at all. Good that I have a Ranger already.

You already can fully repair burn damage with your ability. At higher tiers thats 60k or more HP no problem. Then you DO oneshot cruisers. If you hit more than 2 citadel shots the cruiser is history, not including normal penetration shots that will happen a lot too. And that's exactly the role a BB has. You're somewhat slow and less agile, but once you are at a position that position belongs to you. Noone just simply removes a BB quickly, not in high tiers. Cruisers have the biggest problem with that. DDs need to get really close or really lucky. CV can only attack one ship efficiently and only every 2-3 minutes. You're a moving fortress and if not heavily outnumbered or outplayed can last quite a while. Even if I 100% focus a BB as T10 CV, I will need 3 runs to kill it at least (given the BB is T10 as well and has NO support).

What I find very funny is that possibly the matchmaking is a lot simpler than you might think. As far as I have observed it, your personal skill is not a factor at all. Basically - you get matched inside your tier area. It might make sure you don't end up at the bottom or top of that area all the time, but that is far as it's complexity goes. I say this because so many times my team gets insanely obliterated (just 7 minutes down and a whole flank is completely wiped out already, wtf?) and so many other times it's the other way around too. So sometimes I can lean back and do nothing and just win and other times i have to hard-carry. Just because WG claims something, doesn't mean it's true. And I really think their matchmaking, especially for WoWs is that simple. Why? They have only 20-30k players. It already needs to sort after tier and make sure every game has a certain number of certain classes. Add to that their "maximum 5 minute rule" and you HAVE to have a simple matchmaking or it simply won't find a game that quick. Still don't believe me? Compare it to LoL. I have to wait up to 20 minutes for a game there with my account, because it can't find suitable opponents and LoL has many million of players. You still are not believing me? Well - I play a lot at ungodly hours of 5-7am in the morning with my T10 CV. I had games 1vs1 me against a T7 DD, wtf? And the only rules that seemed to be true were that all ships were roughly the same tier - skill difference gigantic. Boy, you're one skeptical ... person. My profession is game design, so I'm the guy in a development team that thinks of the matchmaking and how it's calculated. I have some experience in that area. Please believe me?

I find myself having nearly no fun whatsoever in DDs past T5. Not only will you get spotted a ton by planes and your torpedos too, but people simply become too smart to eat a full salvo of you at stealth range. While that is alright, it usually means you hit nothing at all for 15 minutes straight. Your best bet is a suicide rush. There is a list of things that would for absolutely sure make DD more fun, without making it overpowered: 1. Increase reaction time in low tiers 2. Reduce reaction time in high tiers It's TBH a very ridiculous thing that reaction times are as low as 6 seconds in low tiers and as high as 12 seconds in high tiers. Bad players need more time, aka low tiers need more time. DDs would still hit a lot and the whining about torps would immediately be cut in half. The higher we go, the less reaction time the ships get, because there they know not to travel in a straight line. 3. Double or tripple the reload speed of T6-T10, reduce the damage of torpedos. While overall it comes down to the same damage, simply being able to fire more often is a lot more fun. Whenever your torpedos are ready it's a big "try again" button. Having to wait over a minute and a half for that is bordering on torture. WoWs is already a very slow game, but having to drive around and do nothing for so long is poor design and not balance.

Below 6 I feel they are fine, but 6 to 9 they feel insanely underwhelming. If you aren't lucky to randomly sink another DD and then find a few BBs that are afk, plus a CV that isn't protected, your game is basically... fire torps, watch them miss, repeat. The changes to rudder shift time in the next patch worry me even more. I'm not a big DD captain myself, but I enjoy all classes, so I'm kinda annoyed at how bad DDs are. Plus it leads to oversaturation of T6-10 with cruisers, which are very annoying ships for EVERY ship (retarded consumable makes CV useless, HE spam annoys BBs, they oneshot DDs, due to super accurate guns). And since many people don't even read the first sentence: I'm ONLY talking about T6 and above.

Also ich versenke Tirpitzs und Atagos liebend gerne in meiner Hakuryu. Die wissen meistens kein bisschen wie man ausweicht. Meistens wird weggedreht und sie fressen echt alle Torpedos, was selbst mit geradeaus fahren nicht erreichbar ist. Insofern ist es nicht verwunderlich, dass man mit solchen Schiffen gerne als Noob gebrandmarkt wird - der Anteil der "mäßigen" unter den T8 Premium Schiffen ist halt tatsächlich viel höher. Aber deshalb muss man es im Chat noch lange nicht kundtun oder direkt Leute beleidigen. Weil vielleicht kauft sich der weltbesste Yamato oder Montana Fahrer auch die Tirpitz, weil er sie schön findet und tja, dann kann man durchaus die falsche Person beleidigen. Jeder kann sich bei den Leute die diese Schiffe kaufen oder fahren denken was er will, solang er das nicht jeden aufs Auge drücken muss.

That was my suggestion. I doubt 2-3km would be enough of a buff. I know how hard it is to actively avoid planes in a DD and it often puts you into a position where no matter what you do, you get spotted. Since you can't spot planes from that far you have little reaction time as well, despite turning fast and moving fast. I could deal with 1.5-2km, especially on high tier DDs (T9/10) but I think more will just not change much to the current state of perma-reveal. If you have used BBs or CAs you know how hard it can be to find a DD without CV support. And I think that's good that way. Even with a range of just 1-2km a CV could be a huge asset to finding a DD, but you wouldn't accidently find them all the time while simply moving to a different target and ruin their game. Another suggestion would be that planes simply SOFT-REVEAL DDs. Meaning they get shown on the minimap with an outline (like targets out of your acquisition range) but you cannot actually see them. Add ontop of that a much smaller torpedo reveal distance and I think DDs might suddenly be a lot better in high tiers already. This is also great because it gives BBs and CAs counterplay, allowing them (if they watch the minimap) to see - oh there is a DD, I cannot shoot it, but I know where it is and I can already start dodging. This is especially positive because it rewards awareness which is SKILL and not luck. As for the faster reload suggestion - this wasn't MAINLY aimed at balance. This was mainly aimed at fun. Waiting 2+ minutes on a reload and doing nothing but "trying to stay hidden" is simply freaking boring, that's my #1 reason why I don't play IJN DDs anymore. And as I said in another thread before, torpedo spotting distance has to be reversed. Noobs will flame less if they have a bit more time at low tiers and pros will actually get hit if they don't have ages to avoid torps.

Hab noch hinzugefügt, dass die Tirpitz 15 Sekunden DCP hat. Korrigiert mich, falls ich falsch liege. Außerdem hab ich etwas Typografie angewendet um die Lesbarkeit zu erhöhen und ich hab die einzelnen Kapitel in Spoiler gepackt, damit man nicht von Text erschlagen wird. Ich werde weiter versuchen das Layout zu verbessern.

So sick of reading this argument. CVs can attack 3-5 times in a game. Every other ship countless times. So they need that reach and precision to be even worth called a ship. And related to this very point - this isnt a CV debate. This is about DDs. Part of the reason they suck so bad at higher tiers is that their reload of torpedos is so slow. Yes the torps do insane damage, but basically you fire and then can't correct your aim for over two minutes. What I heavily suggest is that torps do less damage in higher tiers, but the reload is also a lot faster. So you can actually have an impact, by constantly adjusting your aim and because you force enemies to dodge. The CV problem merely stems from the fact that most DDs need to be invisible to do their job well and because they are so fragile. NOT because CVs target DDs in general. They don't. All they need is to retain that fearsome stealth in high tiers and you can do that by simply making them nearly invisible to planes.

You are seeing this way too hard from the DDs point of view. First off, noone will have 3 torp squads save for Taiho and Hakuryu (read changelog). US gets 2 squads only at Essex and Midway, so up to T9 they are literally defenseless against DDs. Secondly, you need to be spotted which is really hard with ~1km air detection range. Then the carrier needs to have bombers ready for you and actually do a complete run that could possibly do 50.000 damage or more to a BB on a DD that has 15.000 HP, just so that ONE torpedo even hits. Remember a carrier can attack like 4-5 times a whole game. A DD is by no means a priority target. What you want is that DDs become completely and utterly invulnerable to planes, be invisible to them and in general make them a smaller faster cruiser. That's overkill.

Thats exactly the problem with defensive AA Fire. In a well organised team you can't EVER attack as CV already without DDs having this cancerous ability. We definitely don't need more of it. The other changes should be the main focus, because less visibility to planes will make you extremely hard to find by the CV. That's enough already. Once you're found you shouldn't be able to quickly kill the planes and avoid all bombers for 40sec. Some counterplay has to be there after all.

You can panic planes in a giant radius around you, providing a giant area of NOPE for enemy carriers. Other cruisers have a much smaller radius, thus keeping a lot less ships safe. Keep in mind that with increasing radius every bit more radius gets even more valuable.

Nice I just saw I got the highest dmg for a single game of all IJN CVs. And nice site, gives some good stats for people who are interested, since WG doesn't really give out much.

I thought it was simply a percentage of HP? Apparently something changes it though from ship to ship. Because my Hakuryu takes 150! damage only per flooding damage tick.

Hab noch ein paar Infos über Wassereinbruch vs. Brände hinzugefügt.

Alright. I was simply surprised because in lower tiers I often completely sunk ships just with flooding rather efficiently and in high tiers I started using fires a lot more, because flooding seemed so underwhelming suddenly. I thought it was because high tier players use the premium consumable and can fix flooding so fast that it can't run through, while fires do their damage really quick. Will add this to my CV guide on ther german forums.