havaduck

Autsch ..... List of "useless" skills on a NM: Last Stand, Expert Rear gunner, Fire prevention. You might want to reconsider those ....... Module Slot 1 + 2 + 4 are questionable as well, but that at least comes down to preferences.

Yes, Atago is a p2w boat. No, you should still able to roflstomp him in NM esp. considering fighting in co-op. Keep practising.

Kazo is definitely right. WG brought this upon themselves with their p2w boats: If a premium now isnt complete p2w it is automatically disappointing and downright not worth the money. I honestly dont buy the cover-up with "its got to different". Look at Flamus Video: He criticised that they put the Smoke on Flint (the actually earned ship) and radar on Atlanta (the paid one). I suspect a lot of the "its gotta be different" translates exact to the same "its gotta be better". Because the opposite is also true: Why would you ever play the Hipper when you could also use Eugen? I mean the Eugen does have its merrits alone by being a premium ship ... what got the Hipper going for itself? Why would you ever pick a Hipper over a Eugen in lets say team-battles? and then it trains your captain fast (even faster than other premiums), and the camo is free and give a battle-performance bonus by itself (what the bonus is neglible? k, lets make it a malus of the same amount because negligible ...), and without penalty for him being on another ship, the hipper doesnt need ANY captain perk to work (SA is now free, and sure there are benefits, even huge ones like CE, but nothing is a must like EM on Warspite) and you can use any captain in there, to grind captains with a rank no other not-€-using player can even dream of... ......... also that Camo Nr 2 ...... Its so out of place it looks like you accidentally fired up CnC and you are playing GDI.

After 5 pvp games Aboo, after 5 games! (Wanna compare the Co-op results with all the Kongo-Variants, that are a whole tier lower?) The last two were very good and pushed said average. Had I had a Fuso or a NM (Or hell even NY and Kongo) in those the result would have even been at least 1/3 higher ...... Also you might consider that I have 75 k avg damage in NM - but after 146 games .... The problems stems from seeing what this ship "can do" in co-op and in trainingroom, but you know I already did that objective<->subjective thing allready over here: http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/60510-so-german-bbs-are-not-meant-for-long-range-combat/page__st__40 So far you have to search and will never find me asking for a buff of that ship; but you will certainly find me calling it Seacancer. The wet dream about the Bayern would be putting 4 of those Kongo/NY-turrets on her -> unstoppable. This one sums up trying to use Bayern guns (on a broadside, straightlining oblivious target - just like in the video); has even a small rage-quit (how realistic!) and at the end it even covers what happens when you go closer to point blank range .....

I do, a lot. Eg when extremely tired, or wanting to try stuff, or even just because I cant stand the sewer that is random team anymore. And before the usual bashing starts: I ve got 2/3 of my games in pvp with good enough results and my profile is not hidden. (So everybody bashing co-op players and having worse stats than one might consider un-installing? ) OP only does own up to T 6 ships - so high tiers are not the case. @ The OP: I didnt notice any change, beside me playing the crappy Bayern; and that ship simply has very bad offensive capabilities even in co-op.

Higher quota of players with premium accounts specifically rushing up the german BBs compared to the other BBs of long established nations which should be grinded by the random f2p population primarily? (No sarcasm, a guess ;))

According to "some" it does. Had two good games in the Seacancer, both good enough for this thread, considering the cute petname I had to bestow on the ship, but I will stick to the better one:

Nope I shot pretty much a mix - then switched to co-op with a mix again - and in the training room I selected a bunch from the MM spread a few times in a row. I even played against active, but unarmed bots to bring random angling into the play as well .... emphasis on "random". Played it 3 times today again divisioned with Kostis (for he apparently can stand me bi7ching on TS) in his Budyonny - even two pretty good results (HC + C and C). Still I got a new pet name for this thing: Seacancer. For that sums up playing it, and playing against it. For now I have to finish the grind anyway in order to progress to Gneisenau. Who knows maybe I figure this shi7heap out. I wish I could swear I had the determination to figure this ship out, but I very well might just sell it after the grind. I mean I liked the Colorado, but not that much I would have keept it as another T 7 BB - and I needed the captain on NC. So keeping the Bayern because "its the Bayern" has to compete with "its also Seacancer".

So this one on the Bayern - plz consider everything (objective <-> subjective part) because it might cause some confusion or even outrage. Is the Bayern a good ship? If I try to stay objective: Yes, it may very well be a very good ship even. I even dont see it as unbalanced from my actual PoV; but its driving me crazy. Good players which can cope with her may very well use her awesome strengths to crush their enemies. My personal experience in some limited pvp, co-op and sessions in the trainingsroom is a "little bit different" ... warning: The following is now straight into the subjective territory and contains rage and serious bi7ching - do only read if you want to now why the author hates the Bayern so bad he wants to trade it in for a set of Pre-Buff Furutaka, Karlsruhe and a Kolberg. So this ship is a joy to play. Manoeuvrable enough - doesnt even need Gears so it can use damage control mod and gets even more durable to fires. Damage taken from cruiser HE shells is low - ridiculously low. Damage from AP shells is ... spurious. You might not scratch this thing and then the stupid tumor they call SS and the empty-cardboard-toilettpaper-roll take all the AP shells they can get. You might even get decent AA out of it once you get a 10 pts captain and manual AA ..... but ..... yeah as you exptected there is a but: THE GUNS ARE SO FU<KING BAD. (*screams internally and sure a hell externally too*). In fact I think the guns are even a straight downgrade from the König/Kaiser. I shot enough 5-7 BBs, CAs and DDs with those 12" to know what to expect. I mean I did recently play Kawachii and Myogi on the PTS (which left me scarred again), but Bayern may very well worse than Myogi - for it has the better guns. Lets start on the guns in detail: - The reload is ...... average. Fuso is faster, NM is slower. Barrel count is low - which to be expected considering the high calibre (but the rest of the gunperformance is not! - wich is breaking the deal) - The shell flight times are ... a bad joke. Kongo or hell even Hippers shell reach 17,7 km faster - and the shells come in in a very steep angle without any penetrative power at all distances. - Penetrative Power - is one of the keywords. These shells have NONE. The only reason you get any damage at all is the occasional over match due to the calibre. This is also pretty much the only good thing about those guns. - Citadeling other BBs? What are you thinking - yeah you get one (1) when you would be in clear one shot territory with the other BBs. - Accuracy? Somewhere between Kwachii and Myogi. effective gunrange is below 6 km. This is what keeps attempting to overmatch bows an fruitless enterprise: Your are trying to specifically aim for a ship section, at a target that is probably bow-on and thus only showing a small profile, when reliably hitting the same ship broadside is already impossible. So if you just hit the ship somewhere and you cant overmatch you get .... - None-pens and bounces .... none-pens and bounces everywhere! I really do mean everywhere - even broadside cruisers! Now you really start to envy Myogi because although this ship governed by RNG the guns can do stuff. So how about brawling, and going for DDs again: Cant do. You cant get citadelled (the same goes for you citadelling any BB), but anything you can meet will win in the reg-pen-contest, and you dont have a large HP-pool ontop. DDs? The guns are way to inaccurate for that (remember what I said about the König easily hitting DDs at 12 km? Forget that completely with the Bayern - even when you are down to 2ndary range). I am so deeply disappointed by the ship I looked forward the most in the whole line ... I kept the constant nerf and rape victim Mogami in Port, but I now harbour such a deep seated resentment toward this shi7heap I may very well sell her. I have no idea how to survive the long grind on this PoS ..... Im might even go full HE-Spam; I am that desperate.

We all know certain MM chances are needed, were needed and there will be even more needed in the future. Ofc its going to screw up certain tiers to different lengths. And that ofc is screwing with people that need (eg for missions) or want (eg German battleships) play certain tiers. Whats pissing of people (and I am no exception) off is being bottom tier. OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN - ofc (nearly) always with a 2 tier spread. I doesnt help to select another tier (aside from T 10 ofc) because the MM has no manners and you STILL are bottom tier again. So today I put it again on "is just felt like it ..." - instead of actual statistical evidence ..... until I collected that data: WS-Today says I played 17 matches (some out of division - not that it would matter) and I have screens of the team panels of 17 matches (so I proably didnt screw up putting things together), and this are the results: Times played: morning till prime time evening - NO ... [edited]... DIFFERENCE .... WHATSOEVER. So to summarize this: WTF! And its been like this (at least on a felt-basis) even before the MM patch. I seriously doubt it evens out over time ..... tl:dr: What WG should do is collect data about being top bottom tier and so on; and then give people which are bottom tier all damn time! an actually higher chance of being top tier. The greater the imbalance between bottom-top-tier the higher the chance. A chance to make sure that it cant be "farmed" in the lower tiers and then "used" in the higher tier. OFC the amount of players will not allow that always -> fine put it in the "bank" but the next time a lot of players are on line I expect a god damn top-tier-orgy! /tl:dr That ofc, complete with a small UI so everyone can see the data for themselves without going detective on things. Its not that hard, and being bottom tier whole days is just plain bad game design. The thing is: Its not going to go away. Today T 5 + 8 are screwed. Next time some other tier might get the the stick -> What tier exactly doesnt matter. What is is important tough is that you should stop excessive top OR bottoming of all the tiers and players in general. P.S.: Just to make sure: This isnt a +1/-1 MM request, tough it probably would also quell the thirst for that as well - at least partially.

The big question is: Would it have been enough for the highest XP-GNB-Mission without those 4 caps?

So the "bank" part of being bottom tier disproportional often would also benefit you. It was not meant to make it look like people who bought and play the ships are the problem. They are only a problem for the MM atm because of the "Flood-Syndrom". ... and generally if they bought a high tier premium without a clue; but this in general and in now way hinted at you.

Or they are playing Scharnhorsts, Dunkerques, Bayerns, Gneisenaus etc and enjoy being top tier/mid tier disproportionally often; compared to what a T5/8 player experiences.. Also its also about extremities in a small time window: being top tier for one whole day is BS, being bottom tier the whole day as well.

There is close, and then there is close. I had Pensa game with 183 k damage - while the floating battery Kongo camped behind me motionless. Chat ofc to no avail. He had to use 3 charges of the spotterplane because "apparently" the Kongo doesnt have enough range. (yes this base xp is without capping ANY point) €: I didnt blot out the name - have a censored version instead: Oh wow! He did beat that guy that detonated, and the other cruiser who straight up suicided through the middle in "Two Brothers", but there are several others of the "suicide-squad" (that went full retard through the middle as well) that are above him: So even tough they suicided in a stampede of pure stupidity, they still were more useful to the team, than the floating battery that survived to the end - with most of his hp intact ofc. Needless to say, that I could have used the help in that game from Mr. I-stay-full-hp-and-at-range no matter what. So in reality "close" is rather: effective gun range. Ofc its ok to dug in and out - its a dynamic battle after all. But as a bottom line: I would argue that if you cant hit and damage the enemy you have to get "perilously close". The reason for that being a bad trade of your ship against the enemy is still favourable for you team (esp. in a BB that can soak some enemy fire); at least compared a target drone wandering aimlessly around the map edges. Most people that are not total coward actually dont trade to bad, if they get support, and might be able to roll over a similar skilled enemy flank with ease. Instructions unclear. Error 101 - doest not compute.

Oh yeah the: "Ive got the range"-faction ... hitting crap the whole match never wondering how others can be on top of the table - must be hax or OP-ships. Honestly ... why run simulations of Neutronstars on supercomputers when such "dense-matter" is readily available for study on earth. My sympathy!

Remember this one from atsfs Scharnhorst Video? It has somewhat "similar Lyrics" (that you can read in the videodescription below if you fancy) .... (Someone should definitely try to convert the OP-Lyrics into a full song remix. )

You got that one completely wrong. Read again mate, I was talking about the HE damage those battleships take from heavy cruiser guns, esp. HE shells. The same with the Nassau as she doesnt posses 152 mm mainguns - now does she? I mean seriusly: Albany, Bogatyr, Pensacola, IJN 20 cm, 152 mm ...... and it doesnt ring a bell that I am talking about HE damage taken? - just like the very first sentence of that part of the post (that you ofc left out in your quote) says? If anything that makes them even stronger, but I have yet to see for myself how they fare in total; which is also pretty clear if you actually read whats there - since I already wrote that I am just a Bayern with a couple of games. Forget about the stats for now- They need to settle down to a actually meaningful state: - Lots of idiots in Scharnhorst and Dunkerque to farm. - generally higher BB population atm, and thus vastly more HP available. - Good players getting there first. - Might even have dumped free xp so they can sealclub T5 Königs without mercy - with the current MM as their henchman.

Ähm no. Their mainguns are usually "crap". I mean its difficult and I am only at the Bayern but .... The secondaries become really noteworthy on Bismarck. (Gneisenau has pretty good ones two, but they get overshadowed by torps which are plain more important). Its just that they can also help you out in a tight melee more than what you would expect from shitty Wyoming secondaries ... Nassau: Good and fun ship! AP DPS is the way to go, can citadel cruisers which are the main targets. Only way to take a citadel is if the barbettes on the turrets above the deck get penetrated from closup (very very rarely). Inaccurate as fu<k at anything that isnt point blanc. (which still means Nassau totally accurate compared to the Doomturtle: Kawachii ) Kaiser: AP DPS again. Good ship, but cant punish other BBs. You might be a "german BB", but so is every other BB you meet (in terms of "cant citadel this shitty stock broadside Myogi/Sushi-BC! Grrrrrrrr!). Very inaccurate at range. Again, got only pierced twice though the barbettes on the wing-turret. Prime targets are cruisers. König: Finally _some_ accuracy (still worst of the bunch but ...) but now the 12 " are really outdated by now. Cruiser and DD are the main target (get ready to still bounce a lot). If you land in a T 7 match (AS YOU DO ALL THE [edited]TIME!) its really painful as your HE spam against enemy top tier BB is just pitiful. Then your top tier BB will be Wallet Warriors and campers, and you got a recipe for disaster and no ship to carry. . Stick to DDs and Cruisers as targets as you still can punish those ... Bayern: Didnt play much, seems like it actually plays like a Battleship and can occasionally pen shi7 ... Generally the german BB are very HE resistant too: I found it very hard to do damage to a Nassau with even 152 mm HE shells of Bogatyr or Albany; witch is frankly petty ridiculous. Kaiser is only vulnerable to 180 + 203 mm HE .... Next thing is Gneisenau/Scharnhorst. YOU WOULD THINK that the huge SS takes a shi7ton of damage - just like Tirpitz - but nope. Cant damage even with perfect shots. Tirpitz? No problem with the same shots. I sadly dont have to many screens but compare these two from the same game with Pensacola HE. Or how about this one: IJN 20 cm HE is supposed to do more damage ..... yeah right. Congrats! WG has made even 20 cm heavy cruiser have a too shitty calibre to have workable HE. AP ofc works if the BB is stupid enough to give you the broadside intentionally, because usually everyone goes at a, at least, slight angle. Now you only need to wait for Panzerschiffe (if they get put into the cruiser line) with 28 cm to have workable HE again ..... A CV-Bombdrop or general HE spam will do that. .... We know what he meant. ;)

Only 1 of the none p2w premium german battleships has torps. They do however have rather good 2nddaries and their accuracy really starts to shine closer, where they also are able to bring their armor into play and are actually able to pen shi7. The same armor allows them to take greater risks, or heavens behold! Turn! in front of a enemy flotilla to save their hide. The thing is that I found eg the König to be an exceptional DD hunter. Not only is it ok in terms of turning and dodging, when you shoot at a DD you usually shoot at < 8 km, at which the guns will be lethal and accurate. It doesnt matter that your HE is crap, derp a DD with 6 + HE (or AP if you got those loaded) shells in the face and he feels the sting. Hell, since BB guns are the best guns in the game, I find it even rather easy to hit DDs out around 12 km with the german battleships (ofc the DD has to be "cooperative" to allow that in the first place ...... or hax, as people will tell you in chat).

Yes. or: ... but dont worry, Noodle. From what I get to know of you, your Voice of Reason is strong enough to blot out the gibberish-maniacal-one exemplified in this thread. ;) Also thx good sir, I had a perfectly good laugh. Especially considering in the context of this thread. This thread IS pure gold.

This. Best nation to have a positive impact on the battle is still the Kingdom of Ballz; and said Kingdom sails under all flags. If I had to take some long range shots at the beginning while getting closer or because every prey around me is dead, I would like to use (best to worst) as a general rule of thumb: IJN-, US-, KM-BBs

SerBs best friend: Atago, Tirpitz and Atlanta ....... ofc he knows everything! I sent the replay to Loran. To (freely) quote Jingles here: "Naming and Shaming on the WG forum is forbidden ..... but this is not the WG forum and such outstanding and vocal idiots are there to be laughed and pointed at." - More than appropriate, I think. Also: The Ponies from FiM dont do that, but the ones from Friendship is Witchcraft might deal with a heretic.

"More times" is one thing. A 6 to 12 to 82 % distribution another. ;) I dare WG to comp up with generally binding numbers they are aiming for; like: 25-35-40 %. That would fulfil what you said and still would be a huge, HUGE, HUGE improvement.

Sorry for the spam - quite a few memorable games today (some for all the wrong reason like unbelievable idiots, wallet warriors, damage-whore cvs on your team , enemy CVs in general , being continuously bottom tier, and so on). I also think its good to show that I dont "only" play co-op ... but the first one is quite old actually (could find the other screens damn -_-): Its a shout out to Babykim who totally secured this victory and deserved "Man of the Match" with his deathride against a enemy Tirptiz when we were in a stalement in a capfight that made our victory possible in the first place! _____ I hope I dont get things wrong, but a game simply summarized as: Dragging them to victory kicking and screaming. Games like this make you really wish there were 2 forumites instead of .... you know ... Zombies. Also the CV was 1 tier lower, and I had two cruisers with AA barage with me (at one point against one attack) - so he only got "some damage" instead of the usual pillage. _____________ In this game: 2 CVs .... ours were worse -> gg. _______________ Today in general has been a good day: 2 Wins and a Loss alone are missing from that tough. ________________ The grand finally: After AO had his Kraken, and I was about to ragequit because of the tremendously stupid and greedy damage whores CVs on our side in the game before, I decided to give the Kongo a try again. This in order to establish if my critique of the König was justified ....... well: So ofc this was another bottom tier game - like basically EVERY [edited]OTHER GAME TODAY. And ofc you not only have to play to win yourself -> you also got write in chat - only for the idiots to throw the victory away. So after again retaining a _chance_ of victory you then still keep using chat to tell everybody basically: "How to not [edited]up the most obvious things", and have to put up with the gigantic moronic wallet warriors in chat; that in general, MM ALSO loved to put on my side today. .... and then people wonder why I play a few co-op matches from time to time.

good choice Abo! I love that little boat! Damn I am having fun with the those german BBs in co-op. They are really nice for brawling. Also I am starting to figure out the distance above which their guns enter full retard mode. Also you _can_ citadel a New York with König ..... targets just need to be 2 km broadside from you. I wish there were more closer ranged battles in pvp ...... anyway: chasing the 100 in König too. ^^ (I will not just sit still so the 2ndaries can rack up ribbons ... all through active melee) Damage from 2ndaries: 7k .... and thats WITH firedamage added to the total.