Unintentional_submarine

So they decided to bring her out essentially as she was datamined... Well, that's a bit of a surprise. Hopefully they will see the futility of her as she is now, and give her something to differentiate her from Admiral Hipper. I was so sure that the datamined stats were placeholders, and while I do see some minor changes, they are hardly very different and the old stats were a clear indicator of what they had intended. However, one 'stat', that isn't readily obvious is the internal armour. Where Admiral Hipper has a 30mm turtleback, Prinz Eugen has 40mm. Doesn't sound like much, but will likely help against cruisers.

2167 base XP. Pretty easily achievable. In regards to this mission. Since it isn't a single battle result, I couldn't be bothered if Premium players got the benefit. Sure I think that the Premium benefit is better for the general value rather than directly in missions (so I guess I'm more on the side of no specific mission benefit), but if it had been given I wouldn't be bothered. I was bothered by the GNB mission requirement as it was about single case capabilities. If I have to play 50% more battles to get the benefit? That's fair enough. But if I have to do 50% better in a single battle, then it does bother me. Besides, as we know base XP progression isn't linear, it has a fairly significant diminished return. The 1000 XP from 1000 to 2000 XP is much much easier to get than the 1000 XP from 2000 to 3000 XP. And that I felt to be an unfair advantage (it should be noted that I got it through extreme luck, and I got it early). This sort of mission? I'm not bothered much as I can 'just' play more battles.

It's the listed max damage of the shell. The mechanic is the same as for AP, but HE generally has a much lower max damage than AP (there are some DDs where they are the same or the HE has more max damage). It isn't uncommon to citadel all the low tier CVs with HE. Even Ranger is quite vulnerable to it.

Ah yes this... Having been the victim of an enemy CV fail division I am less than thrilled of anyone considering gaming the system. They will just take a dump on an unsuspecting enemy player, or potentially (as in my case) an entire enemy division. Thankfully the latter isn't likely to happen due to the more strict MM rules, but it would still be possible (since a 1 tier difference would be possible).

Naturally they will be OP and UP at the same time. It's just the way things are. They are cruisers, so if they don't offer their citadels up on a silver platter to the battleships, they are OP AF, and if they dare do damage back in more than token values, then they are cheaters or worse, using unbalanced mechanics to get unfair advantages. But at the same time they have to perform certain actions and do them well to protect a certain segment of the playerbase from other OP classes.

I didn't mean the citadel armour. I meant the 16mm structural plating. That's enough to bounce 130mm AP. A well angled Minotaur will bounce Khaba AP for the most part. But obviously that Minotaur is then locked in. He can't very well turn and run (opening up the entire ship to a barrage of 130mm AP), leaving him very open to other ships' AP. Yeah, it seems like the high tier RN cruisers are going to be Atlantas that have traded even more survivability for firepower. But that is firepower against enemies close in or enemies that can't maneuver fast. Obviously if they catch a Khaba close in, it will be the Atlanta scenario again, and even more so against other DDs. And further out they will only really be able to hit battleships.

Ok, conducting some tests. Stupid bots decided to ram a few targets. Thankfully the new T1 ships have less HP, but it still annoyed me to lose spotting. Will real time type in the results. 25mm deck at 15.2km: Penetration 27mm deck at 15.2km: Penetration 25mm deck at 12.9km: Non-penetration *obviously I will have to move back a bit* 25mm deck at 13.5km: Penetration *I felt that there might have been a couple of non-pens* 25mm deck at 13.2km: Non-penetration 25mm deck at 13.4km: Both *obviously this is the point as it was nearly 50/50 with pens and non-pens* 27mm deck at 13.65km: Single Penetrations when the ship rolled towards me 27mm deck at 13.7km: Both *about 50/50 pen and non-pen* It seems to me that I should do some 19mm tests too. Will edit this post afterwards. [EDIT] Well that turned out to be fast. 19mm deck at 12.7km: Penetration 19mm deck at 12.5km: Penetration, a few non-pens and interestingly ricochets now and then 19mm deck at 12.3km: A mess, but penetrations happened. Seems like it is the cutting point as going closer will just result in ricochets it seems. Besides, penetrations were down to about 40%. [EDIT] Tested Iowa's 38mm middle weatherdeck. Proved to be impenetrable at max range I could land hits; 15.25km. Going further out resulted in the shots landing short and hitting the side.

I guess something like the 25mm decks? I think New Mexico should be possible. I'll try to get some tests in on Des Moines for 27mm, but her detection range might mess with it (will see if I can make use of active but unarmed bots to spot for me)

I remember I managed to get a T4-5 battle in my König. I stress 'a battle'. But I got it.

Well angled they will still bounce most of a Khaba's AP. But with only 16mm structural plating the Khaba will just use HE and pen everything but the turrets and belt. As I mentioned in another thread, the Khaba is ironically enough seemingly a hard counter to the top tier RN CLs.

With 16mm of structural plating those things will have issues with DD HE. They will get penned from bow to stern by destroyer HE. Imagine it like how Zao's HE treats battleships at the moment. And of course, Soviet DDs will smack their lips at those large barely protected citadels. Khabas will probably, and ironically, hardcounter them with it's 50mm belt that stops their HE, large HP pool, and powerful flat trajectory guns. Good luck trying to hit a maneuvering Khaba at 10km with those orbital strike guns.

The 67.5 degree auto bounce limit applies only to the 8 inch cruisers. And they start bouncing at 60 degrees, where other guns reaches auto-bounce. But it is only for the 8 inch guns, Pensacola to Des Moines, every other gun in the game follow the usual rules (I believe Tachibana was 'fixed'). I know there is no random aspect to most things, but I was surprised nonetheless as I related to that Kongo test that was screenshotted earlier (long time to finally get that citadel). I didn't take into account that while the deck is essentially perfectly flat (there is a slight rolling and pitching going on, but not enough to impact, post-bounce limits, penetration to any observable degree), the belt of ships aren't. Also the relevant areas of the belts are extremely small in comparison to the deck, so hitting near it but still outside is going to be a common problem. Anyway, I'm no longer surprised at the very sharp transition. It is as it should be.

They have, and GM3D has even managed to get the armour viewers up and working for the ships that missed them. Quite a story to be told in regards to Budyonny and Shchors (115mm vs 75mm belts and long but low citadel vs very long and tall citadel). Anyway, unfortunately only Neptune has the module viewer up. I assume the others are in the process of being made. It is probably enough though. Neptune does in fact have a citadel hump just like the armour indicates, so one would assume the same from Minotaur. So expect a lot of citadel hits... a lot. If Mikail Kutuzov had the nickname Citadelovich, then the two top tier RN CLs will be Lord Citadel and the other Stiff Upper Citadel.

The transition was non-pen to pen. Ricochets on the deck stopped way before. At 12.3km they were already non-pens. I didn't think to move closer to find the transition between ricochet and non-pen. Amagi's deck is uniformly 32mm with extensive open spaces behind the superstructure. Which is why she is such a great test subject. It is very easy to see when shells hit the deck, or something else, so the chances of missing a penetration or the reverse, is rather lower than on other ships with non-uniform deck plating and more clutter.

I feel that this 'rough' tier move is not a positive thing. Yes, T4 is now better protected. And I assume it was done in order to let new people into the game without getting clubbed by T6s all the time. Well, it failed. T4 is reasonably fast. You get out of it with some speed. T5 however in a similar position to T4 before (and let's not forget that T4 was semi-protected before, so it wasn't all that bad), but you are in T5 (first time player remember), a hell of lot longer. The impact of feeling you are continually low tier will be felt much longer. And getting to T6 you don't get the sort of 'relaxed' tier like T5 before. Both are caught in the typhoon. So imagine that new player. He lived through T5 and now he faces T6 in a similar way... I can't say if it will make people quit, but I don't think it is positive. Get the rough tier out of the system as fast as possible, and as soon as possible. The fewer battles you have to suffer in a row that are rough like that, the less frustrating it is. Right now that has incredibly enough been increased rather than reduced.

With Cleveland? I doubt it. The angle just appears to be too shallow. Well unless she overmatches of course, but that hardly matters. The USN 5 inch however had a very interesting sharp transition at 14.8km from only non-pens to only pens. Against cruisers it should be possible to get closer in of course, but cruisers are smaller, and they are considerably more cluttered, making the penetration of other stuff more likely. I admit that my 5 inch test was much shorter than the Cleveland test, but it was just so... easy I suppose. It was so binary.

Let me guess... You ran out of planes long before you could do enough damage? Having seen a stream where such a battle happened it looked impressive in pure numbers (regular battles' worth of damage), but in relation to the HP in that battle it was actually worse than a regular battle. All because the planes were effectively kamikaze. They went out, but barely any came back.

All right. So I tested some things. I went into Training Room with Cleveland against 3 Yamatos. Cleveland's AP pen should be better, so I picked that one first. I sat at close to max range (about 14.3km) and started out dialing in on proper target areas, then I locked the guns and went into Free Cam mode over the Yamato I was firing at. Then I began firing, taking note of the hits on the deck and the corresponding results in the hit markers. After sinking all three Yamatos I can say that there were only about 4-5 hits in total (out of thousands) that might have been penetrations of even the 32mm plating (obscure areas that are hard to see were hit). All the rest on the deck were ricochets. Not even non-pens. All the observable penetration markers on the ship (those blacked holes), were all on the sides, none on the deck. So about the time I began on the third Yamato, I decided to look at the incoming shells from the sides (looking at the stern of the Yamato from directly behind). The angle of fall doesn't appear to support plunging fire, it looked like 25 degrees of fall at most. So I went into a new round with my Sims (with my AFT Cleveland captain for 15.5km range) against four Amagis. And the results are not yet finished. But so far, not a single penetration of the deck at 12.3km. However, unlike Cleveland I don't see as many ricochets, but a hell of a lot of non-pens (unfortunately the dispersion sends a lot of shells into the sides and the superstructure leading to a lot of pens, but they are thankfully very obvious). Also looking at the angle of fall, the shells appear to fall at more than 30 degrees at 12.3km, a lot steeper than Cleveland's. So plunging fire is achieved, but the penetration isn't up to the task at 12.3km. Will move further out for more tests. The reason for the short range is the position of the Amagis on the map. I want broadside shots to be able to hit the rear deck around the superfiring rear turret as it is the most open and the most free from superstructure. [EDIT] HAH... score I missed an Amagi hiding on the other side of the spawn. Perfect scenario. 15.1km And the results were shockingly different. The plunging fire very much managed to penetrate Amagi's deck. The penetration ratio of the hits was around 75%, which is impressively high (meaning 75% of all hits hit the deck rather than the sides or the turrets). Admittedly I was aiming for the best area for this (between third and fourth turrets), but it was still impressive. Shots that hit the sides failed to pen obviously. Angle of fall look to be around 42-45 degrees. Will move somewhat closer to see when the non-pens take over again. [EDIT2] Huh, well that was quick. at 14.1km, there haven't been a single penetration of the deck. All non-pens (all ricochets are against the side of the ship or the turrets). Moved away slowly (moving in steps of around 100m at a time) and penetrations against the deck began very sharply at 14.8km. Suddenly it went from all non-pens to all pens. There wasn't a sort of overlap, which surprised me greatly. With these results against 32mm plating it doesn't seem likely that Yamato's 57mm deck can be penetrated at all.

Yeah, I don't know why I didn't factor in the angle of attack, especially when I have even made inquiries about that in the past. It was a derp moment. Obviously Yamato's 57mm weatherdeck will be much thicker than that as the shell will impact at around 40 degrees. So in reaily USN 127mm AP shouldn't be able to penetrate the Yamato deck (the bow and stern are only 32mm so possible there). Amagi's protection is uniformly 32mm across it's deck profile (not counting the turrets and superstructure of course), so it ought to be the best test subject.

They achieve plunging fire that close? You are sure you are using normalisation after auto-bounce calculation right? But even so, USN 127mm AP should be able to plunge through Yamato's 57mm weatherdeck at around 13km. Or Amagi in general as soon as plunging is achieved. That should be easily testable.

Negative feedback isn't bad. At all. My point was that what it has so far taken to get changes, is incredibly much. What comes onto the PT is finished. That's what WG/Lesta want in the game and they are not looking for feedback on it, as per concept or if it is liked as such. They want to see if it wrecks the game, if it is too good/bad at the present level and so on. Naturally that makes people distraught when they see things that are not so obviously bad as say, CV alt attack being a captain skill (whoever approved that to get onto the PT server failed utterly). These changes might be just as serious, but they are not readily obvious to everyone. Not yet at least. So the potential to get it revoked or reduced is considerably lessened compared to the CV alt attack case (I can't mentioned it without twisting my face in wonder). Negative and lengthy feedback is often frowned upon in general, as it is generally not very disciplined (multiple threads, invading other discussions etc). In essence it is very disruptive. You can argue that people shouldn't do that, and obviously they shouldn't, but the twisted logic is that, that's what works. If people were disciplined and only mentioned how they feel bad about X or Y in the one dedicated thread, you would see much less exposure, and there would be less actual discussion about it (quite possibly the most important part), as it would just be a congregation of a segment of players stating they agree with something. That's the disciplined reaction.

There have been instances where PT changes didn't get into the main game, or were changed considerably. But the only cases I can think of were after lengthy and heavy negative feedback, bordering on raging (and some raging too, there is always raging). Heck last time they had to ax PT changes led to a somewhat lengthy pushback of the main patch. To me that indicates that what comes onto the PT is conceptually finished, or in other words, it is only there to be tweaked, but the idea is going in in one form or another. So when we see it, only the most overpowering amount of negative feedback will change thing. Thus I find it natural that people gets a little angsty if they feel things are going to impact the game balance in a significant way, because they know that not only is it likely to happen, but that the balance people are thinking so differently from them that it is hard to reconcile them.

That's the American Douglas TBD Devastator. Is it the T5 TB ingame? Well, it is American. [EDIT] Yup, it's the TB on the Bogue.

Hm... wait a moment. So if DF and HAS no longer shares consumable slot, which one of them will have to fight Radar for the other slot? I'm guessing HAS since they are similar, and having both HAS and Radar would be both redundant and OP at the same time. But I wouldn't be entirely surprised if it turned out to be Defensive Fire. Also, does that mean one of them won't have to share the slot with anything (and conversely there will be three consumables for the other slot)? Or will the aircraft also move slots? Or 'better' yet, one of them will have to fight Repair Party for a slot (obviously a free slot until T9-10).

iChase's Saturday stream featured a moment when his Taiho set 4 fires on a Grosser Kurfürst who had been forced to use his DCP on the engine getting knocked out.... And it burned, A LOT. But guess what. He pulled back, healed up and re-entered the fight and was instrumental in the eventual win. Even four fires that can't be put out aren't the end of the world. At first I felt sorry for the guy, but then I felt a bit of admiration. He wasn't a good or even great player, but he took it on the chin without flinching and didn't give up. He sucked it up and came back into the fight once he could contribute again after having been as low as 10k. And he did well for having been in that position. That was from the absolutely worst scenario he could be put in with fires. Fires as a mechanic might feel infuriating, but the effect of fires is far greater psychologically since it is in your face all the time, but it's impact in real damage is incredibly limited. It isn't abnormal for me to end a battle thinking I have a Fireproof medal waiting, only to find that fires only did ~15% of my HP in damage. But because I am used to AP shells bouncing all the time, or doing overpens, I hardly take note of the cumulative effects of that. Fires on the other hand can't be ignored, they scream in your face that they are there, and right now you can't do anything about them. It makes for a feeling of impotence, even if the effect really isn't that great.