Unintentional_submarine

I think Chase's little comparison showed it pretty well. Those planes simply don't get through. The effect is much larger than just the number of kills. Just look at the ordnance in the water to compare the two ships. The Atlanta appears to reduce entire squadrons to a manageable level, while the Cleveland can't really cope and has to let some get past nearly unhurt. Though I would argue that in a more realistic scenario of fewer planes, the Cleveland is plenty powerful. It is just not a squadronkilling force field.

Weak AA perhaps, but not secondaries. 3x2 150mm + 4x2 105mm is seriously powerful for a secondary broadside. Nagato, well known for her mighty secondaries have 9x1 140mm, and that isn't comparable to what the German ships bring to the table. The range is not impressive, but it isn't bad either. With both module and skill it is still 6.48km range. Plenty. Even without the module (because chances are there will be more interesting options available) it is still 5.4km, quite respectable. So what does Tirpitz not bring? What doesn't the Grem bring? Or the Murmansk? It's not as if Premium ships have to be clearly worse. It is still rather weak on AA. Sure it has ok 20mm power (not impressive but ok), but 20mm AA is pretty much just revenge killing at T8. The range is short enough that it can't really hurt the planes in time to make an impact. The 105s are ok long range, but they are pretty much all it has to actually hurt planes when it matters, and I would bet that T8 planes that go directly for the Tirpitz will not lose a single number to the 105s, and will only lose a single plane ahead of drop or perhaps only one after to the 20mms. Maneuverability isn't very good. With the bad AA, it actually matters a good deal. We don't know the torpedo protection ingame (it's not just a unified stat per tier right?). We don't really know how much power she bleeds in turns or how good acceleration she has. We also don't really know how she behaves in a turn, she might keel over a great deal like the T4-7 USN BBs, exposing weak armour. We do know that she has a very large citadel, but we don't know how hard it will be to get to it (likely not that easily). The guns might lack in penetration power (not the likely, but it is certainly a stat they could use for balancing), but clearly they will have a rather flat trajectory (high speed shells have so far had flat trajectories, which is only fitting). But honestly, if CVs are as dangerous as claimed, then the lack of AA and bad maneuverability will be plenty to curb the Tirpitz.

Timeline? Both Hashidate and Erie are WWII ships, as was the old Katori. Nothing wrong with the German T1 being similar. That it is possibly an adopted Dutch design that Germany intended to build, is also ok. Yes, you can argue that there are other ships that could fit the same role, but that doesn't change that as it is, it is actually fine.

Indeed. It is that gap between the boilers that make it hard to hit the citadel, and it is of course rather short too since the rear engine room isn't counted as well. And of course, the gap is in the place where everyone aims, below the smoke stacks.

Since I did rather well in the CBT, and do even better now, I can't really subscribe to the 'BBs got nerfed' bandwagon. And honestly, while I can aim (and luck is even among all of us) I'm far from great. Battleships have always been inaccurate in WoWs, they haven't gotten significantly worse. If they had, I would have done worse too. And I refuse to believe that magically I got a lot better in course of one week.

First part. What he does is that he surprises the enemy, so that his guns aren't pointed at him. Coming around an island with an enemy BB looking at you is a recipe for disaster. But you can make such an approach work, as it is quite possible to angle out of a turn from an island. You just need to give yourself the distance to the island to approach the corner more sharply. It can't always be done, but it is possible. As I already mentioned, no, you can citadel USN BBs from longer ranges. From very long ranges it is possible to plunge shells through the deck, but it is extremely luck dependant, as well as it requires yo to have perfect aim for that salvo. In short, it rarely happens (I think I have done it once in my Fuso and never in my Kongo). At long ranges you still need a lot of luck, but by then the deck is no longer 'open' to you. The angle is too shallow and any deck hits are likely to either bounce, and even if penetrating will never hit the citadel (it is simply not in the path). The only chance you have is to hit the upper belt where armour is thinner. And at that range your shell's trajectory will be able to hit the citadel from there, just like Bismarck against Hood (it wasn't a deck penetration, but rather an upper belt penetration). Again, extremely luck dependant as the upper belt is small and is pretty much the only place you can do it at long range. I have managed only a handful of such citadel hits. It gets more regular at around 12km. By then the angle is low enough that you can reliably penetrate the main belt, and at 10km the penetration is pretty much assured to reach the citadel. If you hit it of course. I get the vast majority of my citadels at those ranges (probably because I don't want to get closer than that in an IJN BB).

Well that would certainly fit the idea that Premium is more for ships with some special aspect to them. Like Atago's forward torps, Atlanta's DD main guns, Grem's... well everything really. And now Tirpitz' torpedoes. But it certainly begs the question of hull upgrades for Bismarck as for Tier 8 that AA is not just bad, it is lousy (which almost all BBs have in early hull).

Even lower for cruisers... We are talking sub 1% hitrates. Except for special close range encounters.

At Tier 8 isn't Tirpitz' cost more in line with the others, rather than Bismarck's? That points to Bismarck being the outlier. No info on potential module upgrades? Like a second hull for one of them (I'm guessing Tirpitz)? The difference in AA seems surprisingly small. Interesting that they decided to give BB+torp a test, given how firm they have been on that subject in the past. Sure, stances can change, but this was a bit of a surprise. Maybe they only meant fixed tubes were a no-go? They don't really need to for one of them at least. Friedrich der Grosse was damn near set in stone for a bigger battleship class. The other one? Well I have heard people talk about Der Führer but that one is extremely unlikely to appear ingame, so one of them will probably have some 'special' name.

Arguably because it is 'one of those' Premiums. You can find absolute muppets sailing the Atlanta, who doesn't focus squadrons, who haven't gotten captain skills to benefit AA (and the main guns) and who haven't gotten the Defensive Fire installed. And without that, it's AA is, at best, annoying. With Defensive Fire and focus it is a long range force shield that planes simply can't enter. It's a bit of a hit-and-miss in regards to the Atlanta when you are a CV. But I agree, in the hands of someone who knows what he doing and has a capable captain, the Atlanta is much worse than the Cleveland.

It doesn't need to be removed, it needs to be reworked. The map itself is actually really good, with both open waters and islands to hide between. But it is that split team business that ruins an otherwise good map.

I have long wanted that. Ever since I was teamed up with a guy who sacrificed his XP in order to let me have an easier time. It was a great time and I would instantly have given him a lot of my XP. The 'Play's Well' award is ok, but it doesn't really tell the guy that X appreciated his actions or playstyle, and in the end even if it did, it would just be window dressing.

Because the USN battleships have more armour and have less space devoted to boilers (and as such are slower), they have rather smaller citadels to hit. But you certainly can citadel them, from Kawachi and onwards. Heck just this night in his stream I saw iChase citadel a Wyoming with his Aoba at relatively short range (so no plunging fire). Didn't think it was possible to citadel USN BBs with 203s until the Zao (I know the Furutaka can citadel Myogis and Kongos, but this was new). But as said, the citadel is smaller and not as tall. You need to hit pretty much on the waterline, hopefully slightly below it (AP shells travel a short distance under water), but don't aim below it, just hope one or two land slightly low. Also, since the armour is better chances are worse at less than optimal angles. And of course the usual places are the stuff. Directly below the smokestacks (aside from a select few like the Cleveland). I find that the easiest distances to citadel USN BBs are at below 5km and around 8-12km. At the latter ranges the shells dip just enough that they will carry into the boilers, while not enough that the angle of hit will result in the armour deflecting or containing the penetration. At longer ranges it is quite hard and you need a fair bit more luck (essentially you have to hit the upper belt in a thin strip to get both the penetration as well as the direction).

So you are saying you had better games back when the Myogi was even worse?

How would you make it score citadels, but not as many? Given that citadels are mainly down to hitting the right places under favourable conditions, I say it would be very hard to do. Less penetration? That would have to be down to pretty much spot on 90 degrees only working then... but what about other ships of the same type and tier? It would still be plenty good for some, and crap for others then (140mm IJN ships are fresh out of luck then as their shells are just about making it as we speak, so their universal shell would just be nerfed HE then). Let's not forget that once armour gets thick based on angle, shells bounce anyway, but hey here the APHE would just work like HE. It can't be made to function as both and be adequate for all ships. And I don't believe it can be balanced overall either, but the first is more certain.

Dates guys... dates. The initial necro is actually pretty fine, in that it doesn't actually respond to any old posts, but just enters some personal observations and ideas. But still, very old treads are bound to have outdated stuff in them.

Excellent for when you are about to engage in a destroyer. Perfect for that tension when you are lining up for the torpedo run. But when I start out in my Grem I have to go for this in the beginning. The high note in the middle just does something so fitting for the naval theme. I suppose that's why it was included in The Hunt for Red October (which I see is already represented by the Hymn).

Oh I don't know. The Furutaka is longer, but the Omaha is taller (they beam is pretty much equal). And the Omaha's citadel goes higher up the hull it seems, while, unsurprisingly, the Furutaka has a longer citadel. I have no appreciable difference in difficulty in citadeling either. But I do know one thing, the Omaha tends to eat shells that would otherwise go over, and I notice that more than shells that would otherwise have passed in front (since that is a pretty rare thing overall). The taller Omaha is also easier to hit from the front. Anyway, this is but a very marginal advantage compared to the other aspects. The Omaha can do it's nosewiggle (go back and forth between the forward flank guns that are only about 30 degrees apart) and apply a lot of guns and present a very small target, and all that while making yourself harder still to hit. The Furutaka can angle pretty well, but must stay with that side on target. In any given situation where the enemy fires back, the Furutaka skipper has to evaluate if he can beat the enemy in time. If he thinks he can he must stay fairly still and take the shots, if he can't he must disengage. If he begins to evade like crazy, his guns will at best be out of sync, and at worst completely out off target most of the time. That means the Furutaka, at least to me, feels like you are playing with one hand tied behind your back. It can work very well, and I have played some seriously great games in her (though I believe it has often been down to enemy cruiser not only presenting their citadels but also spamming HE where I was landing citadels), but she is seldomly very fun. So even with a good trackrecord I am looking forward to selling her. And thankfully I will soon, as I have researched the Aoba, just need the creds.

But see that's the thing. If the new APHE shell (urgh since they are all APHE in a sense) can't cause a citadel, then HE is obviously better since it is better at the firestarting. If it can, then why bother with AP (citadels AND fires)? That's my issue. HE in BBs can already citadel some cruisers and many carriers. HE is already the noobfriendly ammo. It works under most conditions and angles. I just don't think this is a thing that can be managed well.

Highlighted the stuff I found interesting or worth just highlighting. Teamwork is OP... lovely comment. Got to love that. Temporary fix to border issue. Good. Well, good in the sense that this silliness should end, but I do wonder if they think CV maneuverability might be a tad weak at T7 and up? Well, regardless positive thing. Gold ammo... oh no. They have given it some thoughts, so if they find a 'solution' it will be here. Urgh... And they are currently thinking it should be a mix. Yes, mix shells won't be a problem at all, not at all. If it can still penetrate the citadel of an even tier same class ship, then it will be OP. If it can't, it will be UP. I would pick HE all the time if I could be sure the HE could cause citadels when AP could (even with HE's lower max damage it would be plenty worth it). And never if it couldn't. There is no middle ground here.

DD: Minekaze CA/CL: Cleveland, Mogami (intended so far, might add Aoba if she is as fun as last time) BB: Kongo, Fuso, New Mexico and of course Iowa (well duh!) might add Amagi CV: None so far... back in the day Saipan was a keeper, but right now I'm thinking Hiryu or Shokaku might work but won't know for sure.

No. In that case it is spotting range. Torpedoes will be rendered at the same range as ships, or close to it. Often you can see them in some far off duel because they happen to be just inside your rendering range.

If the enemy team ends up hitting 0 points, they lose.

Given that most of the problem arises from way too high tier ships getting pasted into battles where they have no reason being, I would be surprised if any MM changes didn't address that. Maybe some more stringent tier evening. So that we won't see a single Tier 3 dragging his tier 2 buddy into a mostly Tier 5 battle.

Yes, you get the 'old' range once you upgrade the hull. In any case the hull upgrade is worth it big time and should be the first thing you unlock and mount. You get AA, more health, rudder shift reduced, more secondaries (you lose a few of the old guns but get more in free mounts) and a benefit to the main guns as well. So even without the range the hull upgrade is good.