Unintentional_submarine

Yeah, rudders do tend to get hit a lot due to their location. But actually the last near miss module that got knocked out on one of my ships, was the engine in a Cleveland, shot out by a Phoenix of all things. Talk about annoying. Such a hit I wouldn't have believed possible, and then it happened.

"I'm on a boat!"

If you can get to around 4-5km from cover, then yeah. Or doing a head on suicide run, that can work too (with a bit of luck, hoping for no or few frontal citadels). But trying to run it down from the rear to get into range where your torps can hit...

Haven't experienced that. I have experienced near miss incapacitations. But no fires.

Leading DDs into a stern chase when in a BB can produce a lot of hilarity. You can almost see the DD skipper foam at the mouth with every hit. I love my secondaries. However, it is important to recognise that the game wouldn't be fun if those guns had 12km range and accuracy like regular ships, which is something I see asked for now and then. I'm perfectly happy with the 'regular' max range of 5km (which becomes 7.2km with module and skill), but at the same time, the 4km range of some battleships is just not very good, and 3km is just urgh. And then there are the secondary batteries of Wyoming and New York. Those are special in their own right. But take that problem up with the people that historically decided removing them was a good idea. And yeah, against a Yamato with the upgrades and stuff. It will pester you endlessly. Don't even bother trying to sneak up on it (or the Izumo) in a cruiser.

It scales from no resistance at T1 to about 50% at T10. Presumably rather linearly, though not strictly linearly. We know that Fuso has a resistance of about 30% at max upgrade and only 24% at stock. This is information we have gotten from WG themselves, but they haven't yet provided more details. So it is pretty much guesswork about the specifics. The Iowa bug is, well, pretty weird, and a surprise that it hasn't been fixed as it is quite old. The first instance I heard of it was back in the early 0.3.1 time, maybe one of the following smaller patches. In order to understand it I will have to explain how ships are 'built'. Each ship has four sections, superstructure, bow, middle and stern. Each section can be put on fire (hence the four fires max), and each has it's own healthpool. After taking a certain amount of damage a section will drop to 50% damage taken. This is normal, all ships have it, and it is why your weapons can at times appear to do rather paltry damage even with penetrations or good HE hits (citadels are always 100% damage). On Iowa things are a little different, one or several sections don't go from 100% to 50%, but according to various people, either drop from 50% to 0% or 100% to 0% (after a really piddly amount) in various sections. The stern is the most commented, while the superstructure is also mentioned a lot. Mind you, it isn't the only ship to have this. The Bogue also appears to have a very strange stern, but it is much less obvious since heavy shots can pass through an entire section to hit another. But personally I have pumped a lot of shells from a Grem into the stern of it, and got exactly 0 damage from them after a while (got penetrations mind you). Other ships that have been mentioned with this are Amagi and Sims (Immortal Sims can at times soak an impossible amount of torpedo damage). Take note of the fourth hit. It does 0 damage, or close to it (I certainly don't see any damage). The stern is 'maxed' out. The bug doesn't affect fires. Fires will continue to do 100% damage, and the chance to cause fires doesn't appear affected either. But you can have situations where good HE hits, that should have caused damage, causes 0. This bug obviously affects survivability. Iowa, already a great ship on it's own, unsurprisingly ranks very high on the Asian server stats (though the sample is pretty small), probably partially because of this. Hopefully this will be fixed.

I didn't make this clear, and that's a mistake by me, but all ships at T10 have a rather significant fire resistance. Some more than others, but we don't know for sure which are what, though Yamato and Montana are probably the most resistant (50% less chance to catch fire). However, fire isn't dependant on damage caused, or at least that isn't my experience. The Iowa bug (which isn't unique to Iowa btw), clearly shows that 0 damage hits doesn't mean no fires. However, in most normal cases where a shell does 0 damage, it just hit armour, which doesn't get set on fire.

HE strikes against heavy armour doesn't cause fires. Also, Yamato has a significant reduction to fire chance, about 50%. Add to that any reductions to fire chance and it gets reduced even more (both skill and mod would reduce it by another 6% combined, for only 44% of the original chance). The reduced chance wouldn't have her from that many shells, but if most of them hit the turret faces or the belt, she would have to contend with much fewer shells that could cause fires. In the end, it seems RNGesus was not with you in this case, given the amount of secondary fire that should have hit.

Getting hit by those torps can only come from one situation...

Most of the time I don't really want 'dumbing down', but this is one case where I don't think it would dumb down. It would in fact make sure people play better. I have a favourite streamer, and he is awesome at pretty much everything in the game (way better than me at least), but his Repair Party discipline is awful, using it first when he is down to 50%, and if he dies, often before the second charge is used. This would help him a lot, and I'm sure it would help a lot of, more situational BB players. Not everyone knows the heavy, medium, light progression and what it does to the repairs, and even now I don't know for sure what amount my repairs do. I just guesstimate every time. Clarity would help. So yes, I support this.

At high tiers, it is much better to spend a bit on that, than on a larger repair bill (technically speaking you even make the repairbill larger by using Repair Party), 22500 is a piddly amount when a sunk Yamato or Montana sets you back 200k. And yes, it is exactly because of it's effectiveness against fires that makes it less important for it to be up really fast afterwards. You need to let the fire work more or less. One fire running it's course with the 15% time reduction, is slightly more than Repair Party can repair on most ships. Slightly. That means that it needs to run for 51 seconds. So if fires are the main cause of damage, the regular cooldown will be plenty. Even at lower tiers I have experienced perhaps a handful of cases where I desperately needed the next Repair Party that a cooldown reduction of 10% could have helped me with, but not the regular. Maybe not even that. The difference is simply not very big and the cases where it matters are simply speaking so few. The damage suffered is stored for a time afterwards (I have heard mention of three minutes, but I honestly don't know, I just know that the repairable damage decays, but not for a comparably long time), so if I repair the damage now, or in 20 seconds, it is generally speaking not an issue.

I agree with everything but Aiming Expert. Even at 45 seconds, it is slow, it is just not painfully slow. There will, even on late USN BBs, be quite a few times where your guns aren't in position. But the most important thing I find to be the T5 point. Well, technically not that important, but the one that is most likely to get overlooked. T5 is simply not good for BBs, which in a sense is fine as BBs have access to a lot of good earlier tier skills. Like Basic Firing Training, the other of High Alert/Superintendent. Those five points are just awesome spent on other stuff, especially if you picked Superintendent, you get the most important part of Jack of all Trades with High Alert, but for three points instead. Scout fighter cooldown is fast and generally speaking Repair Party isn't needed very soon after last use, premium variant can make up for any requirements I find.

Thinking about it, it is a silly subject we are going on about right now. Firstly no Deutschlands have been confirmed to be in. We don't even know if any of the unknown cruisers are D or P classes. As such, I will bow out of this particular subject in this thread. Consider this post my last about it. Chances are after all that convincing the other isn't in the pipeline right now. Just know, that I hold the T5 position because I don't want another Colorado (proof that crappy ships don't necessarily get buffed) for such an interesting class of ships.

You can not take paper penetration like that. If we did then battleship armour would be pointless, and it clearly wasn't. Multiple encounter showed that belt armour could indeed stand up to hits. Most of the damage done in non-walkovers was done to areas not protected by armour. Why did Bismarck's belt not get penetrated very often? Her 320mm was certainly not up to the task of stopping either the 16 inchers nor the 14 inchers at the ranges she was hit, yet it held, and the Germans even considered it overkill and reduced it to 315mm on Tirpitz. The British guns weren't superb, true, but their calculated penetration was well in excess of what was needed. And I don't mean penetrations of the belt but stopped by the armour deck. I mean penetrations of the belt in any form (they happened a couple of time I believe, but mostly didn't). Why would Deutschland be overbuffed? Chances are she will stay relatively close to what such a ship will do in the game, unlike Furutaka (which is indeed overbuffed because the game emphasises areas she was really bad at). The shells Wyoming dished out were significantly larger. Almost a third heavier and nearly double the bursting charge. Don't expect the Deutschland shells to do as much damage per hit as her, not even near it. Penetration might be comparable, or even better, but each hit wouldn't be comparable. Considering the Furutaka AP shells deal 4700 and the Wyoming deal 8300, her sitting at about 6000-6500 wouldn't be entirely wrong. So no, it wouldn't be like getting hit by 20 203mm shells. Not even the 14 inchers have that kind of firepower for six guns. The thing I meant with higher tiers being too much, is that put her in T6 and she can face off against T8 regularly. There we have North Carolina and Amagi (and eventually Tirpitz and Bismarck). You really don't want to face them in a Deutschland. You can't really overbuff her to be able to function in that environment, there is simply a limit as to how the ship can work. Especially when her basic stats would already work at other tiers. Furutaka is overbuffed because it wouldn't help to place her a tier lower with realistic stats. She would still suck. A Deutschland doesn't need that, and as such I doubt she will be very different from what her papers indicate she will be. But it is more than that, pit her against Myokos, Mogamis, Pensacolas and New Orleans, and she will drop like a stone in water. They can dictate the fight, and bring better firepower to boot (it doesn't matter that the Deutschland has heavier guns when their guns pen just plenty and fire a lot faster at the same ranges if not longer). She would suffer more than the T3 ships you seems so worried about. Let me ask you, do St. Loius or Tenryu suffer particularly against battleships as they are? No? They do die yes, but not in silly numbers. Neither would they just evaporate against Deutschland. They would lose any fight over open water, every time, and really they should. But the reverse with Deutschland against higher tier cruisers would be worse. Those 8 inchers with faster firing and more accurate guns wouldn't even need to use HE, like against battleships. The T3 ships however have an advantage in that the T1-2 ships have a favourable MM, so they can't get higher than T3 matches. Thus the T3 ships will spend a lot less time in higher tier matches because they have to fill the lower tier matches to make up for no T4 ships. A T6 ship doesn't have that small advantage, and will face T8 more than a T3 faces T5. Regards to T4 cruiser working against her or not. They wouldn't. Do you complain that IJN DDs have serious issues handling even tier USN DDs? No, of course not. But they wouldn't be even as badly matched as those destroyers. Their guns aren't bad, and can certainly hurt the Deutschland. And don't expect the guns to be super accurate, expect a lot of the BB spread with her (because her guns have more in common with them). A well aimed and non-unlucky broadside can certainly OHK an enemy cruiser, but we are most likely talking 4-5 citadels in one salvo (the Furutaka must get 5 citadels to die, the last two can't be regular pens, the Omaha only needs 4 citadels and a regular pen; using the 6500 value). That's pretty optimistic, and isn't likely to happen often at longer ranges. Destroyers don't fear secondaries. Aside from the really heavy batteries. The four 150mm guns with 4km range wouldn't be a danger at all. Low tier, or higher tier, they wouldn't worry about the secondaries as they are simply far far too weak to be able to kill a destroyer in time. To me it looks like you expect her to have guns that are as accurate as 8 inchers, but have the punching power of battleship guns. Not going to happen.

It might get it's 1940 AA, which was still pretty paltry, but I doubt it will get much more than that. It doesn't have a better reload than the Furutaka, especially not come 0.4.1. 2.5rpm = 24 second reload. That's at best ok for those guns. With such a long reload the enemy cruiser can do what they already do against the Furutaka, bait the shots at bad angles. Besides, I already mentioned that the Omaha has an incredible ability to frontally wiggle between her side guns, while still having the frontal guns on target most of the time. It is an incredibly powerful tactic. It is a bigger ship than either of the Omaha and Furutaka. The Furutaka is infamous for it's ability to duck shots, that slender and low hull isn't easy to hit at longer ranges (mind you, I don't have many problems with it, but having played with it, people missed me a lot), and the Omaha is considerably shorter. The Deutschland is just as long as the Furutaka, but is much fatter and much taller. Hits will be scored more easily, if the skipper isn't good. The torps will be nothing exceptional, but maybe have a reasonably good arc. Omaha is clearly better here. While I argue that the speed isn't a huge issue in getting in and out of engagements, it is a problem in tactical confrontations with other cruisers. The powerbleed in a turn appears to be higher in underpowered ships, like the USN BBs, Warspite etc. Or maybe it is in those ships that have a comparably wide hull, I don't know. But there seems to be a correlation there. Deutschland would fit both actually. She will most likely bleed a lot of power in a hard over turn, and have poor acceleration. That's a clear disadvantage in fights against destroyers and other cruisers. Much less of an issue against battleships of course. I'm not saying that she will not be able to deal with enemy cruisers, it is sort of her thing to be able to do that. But she has her disadvantages. She will be incredibly weak against destroyers and planes, where she will be like a battleship, but without the healthpool nor the protection. Battleships will hit her with some ease, because of her size (in fact she is somewhat similar to the Wyoming, a bit longer and a bit thinner, but very similar profile), and her thin armour will not protect her against anything but DD guns (which shoot HE anyway, except maybe a few adventurous Grems) and 150ish guns at angles. While all ships fare badly under concentrated fire, she will probably fare worse due to her size (which will probably also attract a lot of attention). There isn't any ship at T6 specifically that would outclass her. Though arguably Cleveland would be an issue, with her hard to hit citadel and high rate of fire. Aoba can handle the Cleveland because she has buffed up rate of fire herself (and awesome accuracy). But the problem more comes from when she faces T7, which will happen a lot more at T6. She will not be able to stand up to the firepower of the tiers afterwards. Meanwhile she would not be OP at T5. Even a St. Louis wouldn't be so massively outclassed (but outclassed all the same). She just fits the T3-T6 much better. So instead of putting her at the extreme of that range, where she will suffer the Colorado problem of so often being outclassed (Colorado is bad, but the main problem isn't her own weakness, but that she gets put up against Iowas, Amagis, North Carolinas etc), putting her slightly lower will ensure she can make it. In a pure T6 battle, she would probably never have any serious issues, but that doesn't happen.

Aside from the fact that everything is listed differently. The mod, in fact any mod, can't change the basic layout. It can only make an overlay. Hence this is clearly a screenshot from before we got the present screen, which we got in CBT. And as noted, there are non-ST people in it, quite a few in fact.

You can see by how the screen is shown that it is a CBT screenshot. Don't be daft please.

That's a better argument. I just don't accept the 'battlecruisers are too good against it' as a good reason for it to not be T5. Of course the guns are powerful enough for T6, and the speed, as I have argued, isn't going to be much of an issue (it doesn't need to be able to follow other cruisers or destroyers, it needs to be able to keep up with big ships). However, the gunsize to numbers, isn't really something they have balanced around, it is incidental. The Aoba is buffed up from it's real power, while Cleveland is clearly nerfed, both in order to make them fit each other. You must remember back when Cleveland was more powerful and Aoba was considered a turd. Bad for balance, yet more correct, and still having the same gunsize to number ratio. And let's not forget that AA also plays a role here. Deutschland at T6 would be rather out of luck there. At T5, not so much. Unless WG would go with Admiral Scheer's 1945 AA suite, which I doubt (considering so few of the IJN ships have very late war AA capabilities).

Aside from a few special cases, like Iowa, the ships ingame have pretty much their top speed. Shimakaze couldn't attain her 40kn+ under combat conditions, neither could Minekaze or Mutsuki. And the Grem could most definitely not attain 37kn under combat conditions. Simply speaking, expect the 28-29 knot speed as it isn't overpowered (as the 33 knots for Iowa probably would be, and hence was reduced to 31kn). Should a 'wild Fuso' appear around an island, the Deutschland would have it's torpedoes. Besides, no different from other cruisers in a similar situation. The Deutschland might even survive given her citadel would be much smaller and harder to hit. You can barely poke an Omaha in the flank without getting citadels, and that thing is borderline OP. Also the Deutschland would have excellent angling potential. Not as impressive as Omaha (seriously she can wiggle back and forth between her sideguns' max forward arc), but probably at least as good as the Furutaka. About running away. Yes, she will not be able to run away under 1v1 conditions against the Kongo and Myogi. However 1v1 conditions doesn't exist. As soon as you run away, you run towards friends most of the time. Or you pass them so they are closer. Does the Kongo continue the chase, running the risk of more enemies firing at her, or does she break off, satisfied at the tactical development? Well, since I play the Kongo a lot, I can tell you I would not continue. I wouldn't even continue firing at her, shooting at a cruiser showing her rear is, generally speaking, pointless, if there are other targets. If it is the last few ships, so what? Had Deutschland been 5 knots faster she would probably still not be able to run away from Kongo fast enough to escape her guns (mind you, most skippers would not enter a stern-chase anyway, and would angle as hard as possible to enable all guns, so in effect is slower). The Fuso would be even better at killing the Deutschland under those conditions, given her greater broadside. The speed difference wouldn't be a significant issue. But why is it bad that Deutschland has issues with ships that sit in the battleship line? They are supposed to be the natural counter to a cruiser. The St. Louis is even slower, and a much easier target to hit, yet she is not considered especially UP against the Myogi or Kongo (both of which she faces regularly). Most of the time I see a St. Louis, it sails in paths that benefit it, making it harder to just run down. And if it does poke it's head out at mid ranges, then I kill it no less easy than light cruisers. She does have a significant HP pool, and who is to say that Deutschland wouldn't have that? We certainly can't say it won't have it.

Blank for me too.

So the Deutschlands would have issues running away from battlecruisers. Well colour me unsurprised. That was sort of the battlecruiser function, to make it hard for cruisers to just run around. And they do work well like that already. The Deutschlands would perhaps have a harder time than others running from them, but not anything that would be impossible to handle. And let's not forget that that unlike the other cruisers, the Deutschlands would be able to hit back with AP (which the Furutaka can only do under the most advantageous circumstances). Kongo in particular would have to watch out. They wouldn't be soft kittens. And they would have torps if it really got messy. I can't see the problem. What I can see is a very different playstyle, with different strengths and different weaknesses from the other cruisers. And since Furutaka is getting so much positive coverage from the PT, let's just look at the numbers. Deutschland would have superior turret traverse speed (which by the way is superior to every single tech tree heavy cruiser, though it is just a tiny bit better than New Orleans and Baltimore stock guns) at up to 7.2 degrees per second, or 180 degrees in 25 seconds. And since it isn't a regular cruiser with half the hull devoted to boilers, the citadel would actually be comparably hard to hit, sitting at the waterline and not extending as far.

Actually CheaterHater has the Tirpitz. I looked him up yesterday. But his recent amount of games in BBs, or in general, isn't exactly impressive (for good reasons I assume), so at the moment I'm not putting a lot of stock in his opinion (not that he can't be right of course). However his experience in worth noting, and should be kept in mind for later.

That's an argument against fire as exists, rather than it's impact on battle. If I were a regular forum warrior here, I would argue that you want to remove fires, but I know that it is a stupid argument meant to only rile people up. So what is it you want? What is your solution? Mind you, it will not happen. Fires will remain as a function of fire chance per shell and the various reductions and the ship's inherent resistance to fire. So if fire isn't doing too much damage, and it is only annoying to you as a function, I'm afraid there isn't really much more to discuss. Yet I would still like to hear what your idea about fire would be.

[EDIT] Way to go me. Managed to miss a vital post later on, no point in this one.

No. They were not the same guns. Nor did they use the same ammunition. And as such the performance is not anywhere near comparable.