Ishiro32

Don't be mean to him. There are planned some changes to carriers. Devs were talking about it. Expect damage and performance nerfs. Also MM fixes for carriers. Still I would advice trying your hands in carriers. The best way to learn how to counter them is seeing exactly what is pissing them most and how to mess their plans. When the 0.4.1 will hit those skills will still be needed. Try them not because you will play them in the future, but so you can be that one difficult target. Be patient and good luck.

Actually... I do want to use this thread to congratulate one New York Captain. I am sailing Bongue right now. It was so refreshing seeing some who actually was dodging me properly. My first attempt at him, edned up with me picking different target. Second, the same. Third I was forced to attack him and he had no Omaha's near so I decided to go around and force a good angle. When I did he killed his engines taking only 2 out of 6 torps. Fourth attempt was after we knew our game was won. I knew he will be doing engine trick again and predicted it, but I overestimated and picked wrong angle, 3 out of 5 torps (I lost too many planes during game). He survived whole game and was rather high on the scoreboard of his team. I do need to start recording again. Love players like that and that you can meet them even on low tier.

Nooo... But I wanted to see communist planes! I want also to see what paper design Germans will have in their tier X CV.

CV Nerf is needed. Buff to AAA is a poor choice to do it. I explained to you why and I have given multiple other potential fixes so other would feel better without messing with carrier gameplay too much. I have quick question. Considering what I wrote in the last post. What is in your opinion main reason AAA should be buffed? How much it will impact fun of the players having this buffed AAA? (no changes other than this AAA buff would be in this situation introduced in 0.4.1) How much it will impact fun of the new carrier players? Do you really believe that your idea regarding AAA is best possible solution for the game right now? Did you miss the part where I was calling nerfs before OBT even started? Also I only recently became ST and my status does not impact any of my past, current and future opinions so I don't know why you even bring it up.

Sure there are people trying Hosho and Langley, especially since they hear that IJN is I win button. Not a lot of them will go to tiers VI and VII though. Check asian stats, there is not a lot of carrier players.

Nerf Manuel, his drops are too good.

Why do you keep implying that I am fine with current situation? Carrier's are over performing and nerf hammer was inevitable. I just want playerbase to be on what I believe is the right track so the nerf hammer will hit right places to form CV into one of the greatest unique assets WoWs will have to offer. Voice of a unit really doesn't matter all that much, but if a big group consistently, methodically and calmly explain their situation, it will be heard. I actually loved being targeted by CVs in CBT when I was playing other classes (I know that Aerroon also likes that and was even taunting CVs in CBT to focus on him), but I understand your frustration. What I can say is be patient and wait for the 0.4.1. Devs said they are looking into IJN in devblog and will adress them in that patch. For the moment you will just have to adapt, I would recommend even playing like 50 games in a CV just so you will be better at reading their moves on the map. Know thy enemy. Thank you very much for your insight regarding losing planes at tier VII+ while having no ships on that tier what so ever and having no carrier games in OBT. I am telling you how it looks in game, on live server and you are telling me that you have statistics and they show that I am wrong. Also your idea just shows that you completely did not understand what my issue with AAA is. Maybe with pictures. Problem with AAA - New player is as effective as veteran Problem with strong AAA - Bad CV player can't deal with it and is suffering regardless who he is attacking - Good CV player has no way to deal with the new player efficiently Result: - High expectations of the skill from CV, while none from the defence system is devoid of skill progression - Because of lack of agency in defence, it does not generate a lot of positive feedback to the player who is using this system. Because it is strong it does generate a lot of feeling of unfairness in the new and veteran CV players. Net result: Negative Current big issue with CV: - Lacking carrier playerbase. Initial skill requirments are too high, even though class is regarded as OP, new players are failing and are feeling more as a burden than a asset for their teams. - Low skill celling. Very easy to perform average to good after getting after initial difficulty spike. Carriers were not fully ready for the OBT, but this is situation we are having right now. Why am I saying that lacking playerbase is because of the huge problems with difficulty curve? Because in CBT we had patch with "super auto", basically anyone could score the same as top players just with auto. Spike in CV playerbase was huge. Low tier queues were like CV:20 BB:2 CA:5 DD:1. Ofc this was horrible patch but it clearly showed that carriers do have a draw. Carriers are imbalanced atm, but you without taking into consideration and without any insight into the class itself are proposing changes which would simply take imbalance into another direction then I need to react. You need to think and consider equal issues of crusiers, destroyers, battleships and carriers at the same time. That's why it's called balance. Just in before I said only from the carrier perspective Current biggest problems for people while playing against carriers: - turning on a dime of planes which is related to flight physics - domination of the full strike setup which are focus only on offensive - Huge offensive power and lack of defense are forcing play far away from front line (map edge gliding) so carriers are rarely killed even if their team is broken - Readability of manual drop and direct feedback how and when drop was performed, without those new player has no chance of understanding all concepts and learning from them on their own. Probably some more, but I honestly I wrote enough... Flat buff to AAA will only worsen carrier main problems

As you clearly see I am not ignoring you nor I did I insult you like some other posters. That does mean that I do think about you as a person with whom I can discuss. Please stop throwing those baseless accusations at me. I do not care about those, but they do change the subject at hand and I am more interested in showing you why exactly am I thinking they way I am. I didn’t know that your calculations are based from RU dev blog. Intresting, then I do wonder from where comes difference between theory and practice. I am at work right now so I do not have time nor energy to actually delve into it and honestly I don’t really care much. I would love to see WG data regarding plane kills, this might be interesting. I do not like current AAA system inherentily. You talk very noble and I am sure you might feel very rightful in defending your opinion, but I do think your wrath is just facing wrong direction and is rather blind. Why not adjust flight system a bit? I actually asked question about it in the gamescom question for developers section on forums, you can check it out. I doubt I will get answer, but don’t you this might actually solve a bit of issue you are referring to? It does expand game for carriers and it does help other ships to counter them If they are looking at the sky. Why are you so focused on buffing static mechanic that has no counter play nor real gameplay? Do you really think anything good can come from it?Why are you so belittling towards potential carrier problems and players who might want to try this class? For me request for stronger AAA is just a request from people who don’t want to fight carriers on equal terms, but they want them to be gone and ignore them regardless of their skill or knowledge. There is no skill in AAA. There is multiple ways to addresing current issues without antagonizing each other. Simple fact that single unit AAA can’t possibly fail no matter how bad you are should start giving you some alarm signals. If you don't see it as a problem in itself then I rest my case as it is pointless to continue this discussion. How to make escort job more exciting? Stat increase in power is not the answer.

Lovely attitude. It kinda invalidates whatever you write and show you as someone who himself does not care about others gameplay. First of all you have no idea what exact calculations are done in game engine. Your calculator is based on the assumption that you know all the data. It is most likely false. Those AAA calcs are usefull to check something more or less, but are useless if take results as face value. You might not believe me, but CVs do lose planes and WG does have exact values, how often and how much and to what ships CVs lose planes. If they find some global issues they would adjust it. The fact that we saw AAA nerfs should tell you a thing or two. You can hide behind your "numbers" which we are not confronting, but I do know how it looks from experience and I do not throw my planes at the formations lightly. Since other poster also accused me of this I will be glad to adress it. In CBT I constantly was pressing changes to fighters. I actually wrote rather long topic about and was mentioning them constantly as the main issue with CVs. Before OBT started I requested universal setups on all CVs as I wrote full strike setups and full fighter setups are simply not ready for live and should never been in the OBT. I am one of the people who is opposing map edge gliding and was proposing changes which would force carriers to start moving with the fleet. I do play carriers that way as I do think that people do deserve to sink me if fank on which I am is broken. When I noticed 8k torps in CBT I was asking for damage nerfs on low tier. I made fun of the super auto drop and wanted it gone. You might find some of my posts saying that flooding is happening too often on low tiers and if 8k torps on Hosho are there to stay, they need to adress it as 2 TBs are getting rid off tier IV BB with ease. I do plan to write a big topic about AAA after 0.4.1 and how to make it more fun for both sides. I have some rough ideas to show the direction I would like this game to go. Escort job for crusiers is kinda braindead. I do hate bad ideas like, increasing static defences or introducing RNG and will oppose them. As simple as that. I do not care much about my stats actually, I just want a game where I can have fun and improve. Propose changes which are fun and I will back you up fully (like universal setups, which are direct nerf to damage and performance). Edit. Also glad you enjoyed that wordplay. It was fun writing it.

God, no wonder you are playing BB. I think I need to write it once again, because your rudder shift might have not changed yet or maybe it is just your Automatical response to anything connected with carriers. Anyway don't worry, I am sure it just a huge dispersion of your thoughts, you have no impact on it, it just happens at random. I know what I am saying sounds harsh, but I am sure you will recover from it. Oh and I were ending up without planes on the same tier where there were enemy fighters in the air. Even If there weren't any cvs and enemy on the same tier knew how to play I was ending up without planes in the 3rd quarter of the game. If you missed part about AAA system being automatic and skilless system without any real counter then in your place I would invest in some automatic skill which will help you next time in that situation. It seems that you are missing those small details and those small things are very dangerous as they can torpedo your whole argument, maybe you will ask a friend for a division and he will deal with those details for you? Sorry but in this discussion you simply don't have a range to hit anything.

Well the problem is here mate. AAA is automatic system, as such it will not take into account "skill" of the player who is defending himself. Because this system lack any mechanical depth it simply can not be too effective. Even crusier skill is pretty much panic button and has no real depth to it nor counterplay other than "don't attack". You can't expect those systems to be great because they have no holes that good player can play around. There is no counter gameplay against AAA. This is the same situation which fighters have right now, they are too simple to give them more power. I would argue that for their simplicity fighters are actually too strong and I really hate this about them. If people are in formation there is no good or bad CV. Carrier is attacking targets out of formation and only them. Carriers are vultures, we pick off the weak. AAA is working well enough. I do lose planes and If the match is even I do attack with wings who have 1/6 or 3/6 planes at the last stages of game. This is right now and with the change to the universal IJN CVs I will tell you what will most likely happen 1.) More fighters, so more chances to lose planes 2.) Less attack wings = harder to get through strong AAA Those two things should impact aircraft loss enough, without giving more power to static and boring mechanic which is AAA. People who ask for AAA buff are people who feel helpless agains aircraft. They feel that they have no agency in fighting planes, they do want to see those numbers of plane kills increase. This is valid argument and concern and I actually agree with it. I just don't agree with the way to solve it. Increasing AAA right now would very fast put CVs in the UP bucket. Carriers are not always top tier in games, they are sometimes in the middle. How do you think I perform right now If the enemy is full of tier VII crusiers when I am playing tier VI carrier? I do need to use my wits, I do need to use every plane, pick my targets wise, scout constantly, deal with enemy carrier at the same time. Losing planes in that situation is very easy and there were multiple situations where I just ended up without planes in the middle of the game simply because tier advantage. My enemies don't have to think then, they can sail like morons, but I have to count every second and every plane. This is how this "simple" system works. Carrier is at the top? He will not lose planes. Carriers is at the bottom? Even best carrier player will end up without planes in the middle of the game. It is unfair for both of our sides, trust me. You want to decrease performance of CVs, then fine, there are multiple ways of doing it. You want to kill more planes? Propose rework of AAA. Right now AAA is balanced around the same tier and any buff to it will throw carriers under the bus. Edit. I really have no strength to do some fancy theorycrafting. Ask some carrier players how often they lose planes and when it happens. New players or veternas, I don't care. There is not enough carrier players. Ending up without planes feels horrible as there went almost no effort to kill them. I don't want for more players to feel this frustration. I do want to think about other side and I do want to see some performance nerfs, but not at the cost of creating more toxic gameplay for CVs. Understand my concerns.

Well you will find me defending carriers also on the forum almost all the time. Fact is that people do not know how to counter CVs, people do not know how to play CVs and most of the playerbase simply do not know them nor do they understand their gameplay and how to predict their movements. There were a lot of missinformed opinions and very silly ideas proposed by those people. Defending carriers in that situation is only natural. It is really hard to tell what is current status of Hakuryuu as I did not play a lot on PT in which she has her current setups, at the same time high tier population is simply to small to really get a tangible opinion. Based on my experience on those tiers I do not see big issue with her when the rest of the pack will catch up. I have seen Montanas wrecking hell in those games. Shimakaze need to take at least 3 torps to die. Still there is not enough high tier Crusiers to feel proper AAA as games are filled by "Team Atago" and that ship doesn't have AAA. I don't think she is or will be OP. CVs even right now are losing planes rather easily. I do know that people want to see them out of planes in 10th minute, but it will never happen. In the 20 minute game you can expect all CVs to be out of planes if there is enemy CV or tier spread is balanced. I am talking from experience and not from statistics. With universal setups that situation should happen more often actually. So you should be happy... I think...

Nerfs are coming, just not buffs to AA. You can decrease performance of CVs without making them pointless hulls without planes in the 8th minute of the game, really. I don't want to go into details of AAA again, but I will tell you that it will never be a full counter to a CV by a lone ship and buffing is a bad decision simply because of one word. "Automatic". Without AA rework I doubt you will see any big buffs. So until we have expanded AAA system, more logical is tweaking mechanics which are already in place and require player input.

Well, let's see It was a bit before we knew about balanced setups and way before you and people like you started your "Nerf CVs into the ground" crusade. It was before OBT started as OBT was open for all on the 2nd of July. I do want to hear that. Do you also think that my opinions are biased and worthless?

I really wish we could have "damage per minute spend alive" stat in game.

You guys are still talking about this whole thing. Amazing. It is very simple. Evading does help minimize damage from torps, I know it very well because I have seen crusiers going between torpedo waves or BBs getting hit by only 1 torp. You can ignore this fact and ignore planes and sail straight, be my guest, but then don't complain when average player will send you to the port. Formation of ships is pretty much immune to air attacks (tier VI+). Once again you can ignore this fact and continue complaining, be my guest. I have seen more than enough examples of people creating those formation on randoms. But I guess instead of actually playing with other people you prefer to go solo and then complain on forum. Good DD is nightmare to hit for a CV. If you get hit by one TB wing then you have only yourself to blame, it is as simple as that. Once again I know it because I saw those DDs and I was targeting them. As for the video itself it was very risky play from my side and the DD movement was very easy to read. I had luck on my side and the DD made mistake. Because if there was rng then there would be more skill to master? Also best is best, it is always hard.

You don't even try anymore. I am bored. Good luck and have fun in game.

If we take out IJN CVs out of equation then tier IV and V USN CVs are not performing good.Indepedance and Ranger have good stats, but really this is what I wrote above. The difference isn't big considering they survive most games and have no pushing power.

Ok Tier IX and X sample is too small to draw any conclusions. Avarage stats difference between BBs and US CV is not that big considering that CVs do not have any aggro or pushing power and those results are from the games where CVs usually die last so they have most time to actually pad their stats. BBs can die really fast but their average is still good. IJN CV line will be nerfed as metioned by devs so talking about them is kinda pointless.

Well, I was missing some DDs, but it doesn't make for funny video to mess with people, don't ya think? Turning does help, turning on a dime is a bit too much right now, but planes should be agile, small nerf to it would be enough, nothing too much.

CVs are very consistend in their performance. For example DDs have potential to also get over 300k damage, but it is very opportunistic. While I do think rewards should be looked at, I don't think this is issue with CVs themselves. Also stats are starts, those are averages so I don't know why you argue with them. Fighter US setups are not really popular, in all games I have been playing I have met fighter US maybe 5 times? And mainly on tier V or VII. Oh sorry I also met 2 times fighter Essex, but it's tier IX so it doesn't count as we are not talking about them.

Just to be sure people know on what page I am and why I posted that video. Turning on a dime is a bit silly currently, but the fact is that this DD made a mistake by having constantly the same course which is easily predictable. Hitting good DD with just one wing is really, really, really, really hard, good ones you have to actually create a good net. Turning at the right time in the right direction will minimize damage and crusier who do it instead of 2-3 torps receive 0-1. BBs from 2-3 will change to 1-2 depending on the tier. Turning does help.

If CVs are so easy shouldn't average be bigger than in BBs?

Average stats for USN CVs and BBs are not really that different. CV have advantage, but it is coming just from the fact that they survive most games and have no aggro or pushing power.