Ishiro32

Why? What is so decend about? Someone is angry and is giving feedback on why he is angry. Silently leaving the game is much worse for the developer. And it's not like he doesn't have a reason, last patch pretty much broke the game. I will also be vocal. Because of the huge number of new bugs/issues/changes to carriers which are beeing reported on live and which were not on the public test, I am having a break from the carriers. I will wait unitl they at least patch dogfight skill.

Ok, time for a knowledge bomb and wall of text. Why carriers without damage in current game would be annoying piece of garbage that no sane person would play. I am not a damage whore edition. What you are requesting is for this class to be full support. Great. Let's examine support tools carriers do have at their disposal. Planes as scouts Carriers do provide very valuable informations to the team. First they give your allies more or less information what is the position of the main fleet and it's movement. They also are able to spot destroyers and other stealthy units. How do they do this: This is mostly done by just flying around. When you find main fleet, usually after a minute or two you can stop scouting because of the huge detection ranges most of the ships will be spotted anyway. So what's left are destroyers. Finding them is mostly luck and when you find them you usually just float around without any other interaction. This is very passive, boring and fact how easy it is to permaspot destroyer is unfair for the destroyer class. Reliability and impact on the game: I would say initial scouts are very important. They are also very reliable, but mostly because of how easy is to spot ships. After initial scout most of the time you will be searching for light vessels, so let's focus on thath. Finding destroyers can be just luck, but sometimes can be done using some information from your team or by looking at fleet movement. I would say the process of searching for them is fine, as you have to actually look, think and communicate. Carriers are very very effective at finding them. All fine, but issue with this lies here: You are only providing information. Current game right now is mainly random modes, so you are relying on your team to actually use this information in any way. I had a game where permaspotted DD torped 5 ships from the 7km range and I was the only person trying to sink it, while my allied ships were not able to dodge torps with this huge advantage. This is critical flaw when concidering this task in random game mode. The nature of scout is information is passive support. While the mechanics are very reliable, the impact on the game 100% comes from your team. You can easilly feel powerless doing something like that, since you can do your best but it doesn't change anything. To sum up: Scouting is very easy job to perform . It is boring and frustrating because of random nature of the results you achieve. Also anything other than scouting destroyers is pointless after first 3 minutes of the game. Initial scout can also be performed by destroyers. Planes for decapping points and quick reaction forces Sometimes it's very critical for the team effort to win is to deal just some damage to the ship which is very far away or hidden. How it is done: This job is mainly performed by the Dive Bombers if we are talking about pure support. Torpedo bombers are also capable of doing this, but they deal so much damage that usually target dies in the process. HE damage also is decapping much more often. Reliability and impact on the game: While with scouting the impact was the issue, here the big thing is reliability. Dive bombers are by nature very RNG unit. Since most of the time you will have to target destroyers you are pretty much left with a dice roll, with manual drop or auto. I had multiple occasions were perfect manual Dive Bomber drop was missing all bombs on the capital ships. As for the impact while it can be huge and it can win games, as I had occasions to win games because of my decap, the situations like that are rather rare. To sum up: This support task is very situational and while it might be critical often it's plagued by RNG. Because of how DBs work I would say that skill pretty much doesn't matter in this role, which is boring and will not keep players engaged as they have no place to grow. Defending your fleet from other carriers: Ok let's start by saying that this roles becomes completly pointless when you make carriers full support unit. If they don't have damage, then there is no point in defending againstthem, right? But let's say we are talking about full fighter decks against full strike decks. Why even then, they do not work. How it is done: Fighter play is actually the deepest from 3 mentioned tasks. To play great fighters you need to understand how your enemy thinks (you have to have huge experience in bombers setups) and you need to position yourself to block the air strikes before they are near your allied fleet. You are controling air and trying to predict movement of planes which are out of your sight. When near enemy planes you have option to use fighter skill which is still too situational, but sometimes can wreck havoc. Reliability and impact on the game: Everything would be great here if the game had organised play mode. Why? To properly screen your team you have to communicate with them, they have to know their weaknesses and they have to move together. Few planes can not in any way provide perfect defence for the random team which moves as it wishes. It is simply impossible, especially in 12v12. Even in ranked mode 7v7 screening can be totaly nulified by your team moving incorrectly. Other than that once again your impact is 100% on your team. You are playing for draw as if you perform this role the best you can, you will only nulify one enemy ship. To sum up: In random game this type of support will land you often below 50% winratio. It is impossible to provide perfect defence to the random team and at the same time, in best case scenario you are getting rid off one ship, while not providing anything else to your team. And that's all. All of the support tasks carriers can do are boring, annoying and in random game are pointless. Support gameplay lacks mechanical depth and is very unrewarding (not by exp or credits, I mean gameplay wise). Also if you make carriers full support then one it's support roles becomes obsolete Without HUGE rework to carriers, spotting and planes. There is no way you can just say carriers shouldn't have damage. They do not have anything else. Also their most satisfing unit to use is torpedo bomber on manual drop. Pretty much whole fun from carriers is comming from torpedo bombers. And not those fast and easy to aim TBs from Midway. The hell with those. What I mean is something more like this: Or those perfect drop which activate just near the broadside, but once again not from midway fast planes, but from slower planes. Numbers!! To have something to back my words I did experiment. I have played Ranger in ranks only on support deck 2/0/2 and in Random I played balanced 1/1/1. Please have in mind that my random stats recently went down and during the experiment winratio and damage was higher (+10 winratio +10k avg dmg, playing carriers after long break is pain for solo statpadding). Ranger 1/1/1 Ranger 2/0/2 And the funny thing is that Ranked mode is actually better for the 2/0/2 setup as you have much easier time providing air cover. If you have any questions regarding my opinion on carriers, please ask.

Because of the patch I have a small break in carriers. I refuse to play with dogfight expert giving 100% bonus, this is just plain stupid. Other than that people report control issues and planes ignoring orders. I just don't want to frustrate myself during my free time. I never had issues with nerfs, but I always had issues with changes which make playing more annoying.

Which is stupid, because at tier X dogfight does not give anything at all. It is dead skill. I would assume change like that would warrant a reset for CVs

Those Phantom Fortresss stats. So bad, please buff

There is one big issue with tier IX and X carriers. Massive power spike. Thing people forget is that plane speed is one of the most important characteristic of each carrier. It increases the number of runs you can make in one game, it decreases the time you have to be in heavy AAA, it makes positioning for the run much much easier and your drops are faster since circles were always the same radius. To sum up, your planes are more deadly and are easier to use. This was the reason why Saipan in Beta was most OP carrier in game, even though it had paper planes. This is also the reason why you have suddenly so many "pro" midway players. The biggest asset midway has is not her second TB wing, but huge TB speed buff it receives. Granted you need to increase speed to scale it to bigger maps, but this is the reason why people call her skillway. Fast TBs are simply too easy to use and perform well. Change mentioned should nerf slighly midway and essex while not impacting lower tiers at all. I do expect some more changes to carriers to come with 0.5.2

It's much easier to quickly check all the BB players before the game starts. Just double click on their name when the game is loading and you will get the AAA values of their ship. You can easilly see which ones have AAA hulls and which are stock.

I think you lack contex for my reply. As I have said, later I will gather it in one place.

Planes = Carrier's projected HP, without planes carriers are useless. So in this case Crusier is risking showing up his broadside to the attack to hopefully get more plane kills Carrier is risking his planes so he can hopefully pull off better drop and get more damage. That is exactly risk vs reward for both parties. Planes can drop from the longer range, but then crusier has more time to dodge, but if he dodges then he is lowering his damage output against planes. Whole thing is making close drop very risky while long drops very safe at the same time it's making killing planes very risky while dodging very safe. edit. I will later create topic about my proposition in CV section where I will try to go deeper into it. Right now I am bit too busy to write it, but I believe this is exactly what carriers and escort crusiers need.

Are you able to read? I did not propose anything as complicated as you have said. I simply said to divide already created zones into additional sections so angles of the approach is taken into account during the dmg calculation. This is not at all resource heavy. It's still simple AAA model, that does not simulate anything. Most likely it would require tweaking something in engine, but saying that it would require a lot of calculating power is hillarious. Also I have said that AAA in specific zones will be stronger than it is now. Once again, read. This is not nerf, nor buff. This is rework. I have no idea why you bring up stats and how in your opinion CVs are OP, when I am not talking about power, but mechanical interactions. Stop projecting, changing subject and read.

I am dumbfounded by the whole post. Not only it is filled with pointless bickering about OP class which you never played even one game, but: My idea is there to: a) expand AAA escort crusier gameplay, something which A LOT of the crusier players were complaining about. That role is boring because it has no mechanical depth. Planes needs to fell deserved in some way. Battleships mostly will not be affected, the only difference is that they will kill less Dive bombers which naturally attack from the angle with lighter AAA. b) expand the air play. Make movement through the map more difficult and at the same time get rid off the stupid random plane kills at >7km. And you are telling me that CVs are too simple. Thing is I agree and this proposition does not make it easier to perform well for carriers, quite the opposite. What the hell is wrong with you. It is to expand AAA crusier gameplay and plane movement through the map. I have no idea from where you gathered that it's some kind of buff to carriers or nerf to other ships. Because of that sytem you will be able to have much stronger AAA than before, because of the added difficulty curve as a balance mechanism.

Cleve and Atlanta only does great damage at long range because of the DP guns and AA barrage skill. Other than that all long range AAA is very weak and killing planes on 7km is happening only because of a bad dice roll, which I think is bad as a mechanic. Only when you come to the medium range AAA stuff starts to really die. So yeah, it's working as you have said. General buff including 7km would just make that long range plane kills more often, those plane kills which CV player can do nothing about and those kills which ship using AAA barerly notices. This would only break the game and not help anyone. No it doesn't need extreme amount of serverside calculations. This is the same zone mechanic which is right now, but instead of checking only circle radius for dmg flag it would also need to check the angle and add it to the dmg forumla. You could start angle calculation only when you get a flag that plane is radius range. This would increase computing power needed, but not by any significant amount. This is extremely light calculation and is the exact reason why I proposed something like that. Even if it's not calculated by position and by object I don't think expanding AAA zone object would impact performance and server data transfer in any meaningful way. Wait... risk and reward? In a game? What a novel concept. So the most efficient way to kill planes is also most risky. Wait... Where is the problem? Also check leaked Tone model. Almost all her AAA is in the back, which would make her very intresting crusier to play against planes. It is not nerf. Since the change is quite impactful even though it's simple, almost all AAA values would have to be redone. Main idea is that when played well by crusier it will be a buff, when played badly it will be a nerf when played by avg player it will act the same as it's now. Simple as that. It's a request for rework, not nerf nor buff. Get it in your head. This change affects crusier positioning and plane positioning. Yes it does add another layer to the positioning and in my opinion it's not bad at all. It would add something to the full AAA escort gameplay other than hugging CV or BB. I think change like that is needed if you ever want to feel really good about plane kills. You need to work for them and if you do it well you should be greatly rewarded by the planes turning into balls of flames.

Because this game is so fast and difficult right? People don't like dealing with planes because they feel helpless. What I want is to give them proper tools so they can fend them of If they are willing to use them. God forbid that we add some depth into the game which will let good players play better and bad players perform worse. What you are basically saying is that you hate carriers with their planes and don't want them in game. Never going to happen and with automatic system AAA will never be what you would consider strong, simply because it would throw balance out of way in the other direction and make whole class obsolete. So you either have: AAA which does not impact planes in signifcant way most of the time, but does not require players to do anything. AAA which does impact game in significant way most of the time, but require player input to perform. And you really would prefer option number 1? Then you have no right to complain about strength of AAA. What the hell is wrong with current generation of gamers.

Yeah, yeah... whatever. AAA in some ways does work like that. Thing is when people talk buff AAA, they mean buff long range AAA. So buff those 7km bubbles which are impossible to operate between. I would be fine with 3km strong AAA, but I doubt people would care about it based on how planes are fast and how much time planes spend in that zone. At high tier there is no such thing as flying around the target to find the good angle (lone DDs are exception). conductiv, on 02 November 2015 - 03:39 PM, said: but what the hell is going on in that vid? is it a tier 5 carrier in a TX battle or some age old footage from a botched test.... It does show there is work to be done, because planes should not be unable to do anything as they get swatted out of the sky miles from a single isolated target. but I'm far more inclined to believe its a scaling issue then it being a "don't buff AA" issue, in the end AA even on a single ship has to be effective when invested in. Tier V carrier and AAA speced Cleveland at max AAA range with activated skill wasting whole US bomber wing on the spotting range without any possibility to run away. Live server 2 months ago. Since then, Cleveland I think got some small AAA nerfs, but I am using it as an example to show how long range AAA is design trap and what are the risks of fully speced "Escort Crusiers" as main countermesure to air threat, not against specific ship itself. What I would love to see is for the positioning to be a big factor in AAA defence. Obviously we can not simulate AAA completely and I think current zone system is not completely worthless. Thing is, it's too simple and does not leave any space for counterplay and play. What I would like to see is just expanding zone system for it take into account from which side the planes are comming. Something like pictures below (1000 hours in paint, red strong AAA, green weak AAA) . Basic idea is that based on AAA placment on the ship, each would have different AAA coverage. Then if someone would like to actually use his AAA to his advantage he would have to actually think about positioning and use it, play around individual ships strengths. The same way that type of AAA leaves some holes, weaker spots which can be used by carrier players. Additionally it does promote moving in fleet as they can cover each own weaker spots creating strong bubble. My main problem with AAA in current state is that it has no active gameplay. It's all passive. People don't think about it and because everything is automatic it actually never really "feels" good to waste whole wing.

Buff to AA without any mechanical changes is very bad idea design wise. Main issue with AAA beeing a "counter" to the air play is that air play requires significant player input to perform, while AAA has almost no player input at all. Results of the strong AAA is something like this: This is ofc very unlucky situation, but shows design traps of the strong AAA presence. There is no way to take it into account and play around it. It also does not require any skill from the play who is defending himself which is unfair. Also killing planes that way really isn't very exciting. Without reworking AA defences I do not see AAA beeing any stronger than it is now. In a way I liked a patch in a Beta during which all ships had very short turning radius and quick rudder shift. It looked stupid, but it was really hard to put torps into the good players while bad players were beeing punished hard (IJN had very tight spread so you could put 12/12 torps into BB). That situation clearly was flawed, but plane vs ship balance was at it's best then.

I remember when Jim started doing his show on the Escapist. It was so bad that I could not believe someone thought it was acceptable to air that crap, but on the other hand Escapist was a site which gave Dragon Age 2 perfect score, so I think they like it that way. Overall I think we are better with Jim than without. I do not agree with his sensibilities, reviews etc. but he is ok when he is focusing on anti-consumer practices made by some companies.

Saipan OP, please nerf.

What kind of reply is that. Just anwser question I asked. a.) 50% b.) 2% Because if you counted those winrations the same way you would do to get 50%, then I must say that number you got is pretty much worthless.

I have quick math exercise for you then just so I can understand your thought process I have played 2 games as Hosho and won 2 of them (100% winratio) I also played 98 games as Langley and lost all of them (0% winratio) What is my avg. winratio

Wait, I just realised something. Did you just add the winratio to itself and divide by the number of winratios you added without taking weight into account? Because that would explain >50% winratio.

It is not possible to get global >50% winratio with mirror matchmaking and draws counting as lose for both teams. This clearly shows that there is an issue with the database. Either it takes into account all games since live or it's simply incomplete. Or someone doesn't know how to calculate an avg. Pretty much.

I had to

Why do you change subject? You said that CVs should be full support. I said it would be the most boring thing ever concived in class that already has problems with engaging the players and as dedicated support player I would never play a game you described before. Now you just jump with Nerf CVs!! Kill broken TBs. This is pretty much calling for getting rid off the class, as at the moment it has only TBs. You are not intrested in discussing with people who know this class inside out, you are not intrested to learn, you are clearly just angry, because of the unbalance at tier X and IX.

Well written, so I approve. Anyway, yeah carriers do have problems. If you think about it, this is most experimental gameplay element in this game so fitting it into the game and balancing it will take a lof of time. Next patch will introduce some changes to the IJN which might be intresting to look at how they will affect the game. Top tiers like IX and X at the moment are not really all that important. Majority of players are at 5-7 which really shouldn't have big carrier issues. I honestly have no idea how to adress the Midway and Essex without killing them off. Maybe WG is planning some rework to make them balanced? Maybe 0.5.2? Dunno. I am sure WG is monitoring carrier impact. As for the non CV games. Based on forum reactions, a lot of people find them boring.

It's clear that you really don't care about carriers and just want them to be gone. That is the reason why talking to you about their balance is pointless. Does pressing one button every 30 seconds sounds exciting for you? Just because something is helpful doesn't mean it's fun. I said your proposition is boring, not that it's useless. Mate, in all MMO and MOBA I play always either glass cannon or full support. And as a vivid support player I am saying that your proposition of reworking this class into a support unit is abysmal.