Ishiro32

I had quite few plans for the new CVs. I was thinking about bigger comeback to the game, forum and even streaming for polish players. It just seemed like super interesting thing to analyse hell out of. When push came to shove I just was too busy in my own private life and after that I just didn't get any motivation to it. I wrote my initial impressions when we first got our first public view on their system. My thoughts back then was that this rework seems to fix few issues, it is designed with purpose, but I think it misses the mark on what type of fantasy it tries to fulfil. When someone thinks carrier, they do not think flying a plane and being a pilot. Which lead me to conclusion that this type of gameplay will be generaly more accepted by community, but it will not be loved. RTS CVs were objectively worse design, but they tapped better to their core audiance. Maybe submarines will make me come back and then I will also check CVs, but maybe I will do that on alt account? Who knows I also missed Sharana. Fact that WG lost his interest in the game was a huge loss for them. I mean his CV Guide was pinned for like 2 (maybe 3) years and for most of the time it was the best place for any CV player to actually learn how this thing works. Also man... those times when we just experimenting with controls to find all the possibilities since no one knew anything. I am looking right now at my old video which was documenting how broken planes were 4 years ago when they could snap to the drop from almost any angle. Good old times You ain't lost much fam. I was pretty vocal CV player from the times of beta, did decently in them. Wrote few feedback topics with huge walls of text in them. I think only people who really dived into CVs topics at the time and part of polish community knows me... ... Also I used to post quite a lot of anime pictures in my posts. Quite obnoxious, but I guess a forum persona is forum persona. There is one rule though... Don't make height of the picture bigger than 300 pixels. Huge anime picture plastered on the whole page is just being rude. Good rule, can recommend

Ah yes. Now this makes sense. That guy is really dedicated to trolling cv players on forum. It is step in the right direction, but issues I mention work together. If Cvs had less emphasis on dps then passive nature of counter is less of a problem. You also can't make AA full control because it would be putting too much on surface ship who also does other things. Hmmm...

Haha, now this is something I did not expect to see. Right now I myself wonder how did you manage to be suspected of such thing. Not to mention if that comparison is even good for you. Half of my presence here was just being very loud ^^. Also man... almost 370 pages

I decided to drop to the forums to see how things are going even though I am no longer playing and it seems like we are having same discussions as we had like 2 years ago. What a world I wouldn't say it is fundamental, because it comes as a result of other elements. Elements which also were present in the old system. 1.) Passive counters to CVs 2.) CVs have almost no presence on the map after initial scouting. They are designed solely around damage. Damage, damage, damge, damage... You can't put pressure, you can't use consumables to put up a smoke, you can't cap, you can't soak damage, you can't create a presence on the map (this is a simplification a bit). You are seen, you are balanced around and you are expected to be just alpha/dps machine. Those are fundamental problems because those lock you inside a situation where you have to balance specific numbers to make gamers... not furious

No RTS carrier gameplay was so messed up from design perspective that rework of the whole system was the only possible solution for the balance. Sheer existance of CVs warped everything and WG in their infinite wisdom decided to throw gallons of fuel of this dumpster fire of a class for the last 3-4 years. Even if they wanted to do CVs as RTS, everything would still have had to be reworked. There was just too many issues with current implementation on the most basic levels. Accept it I do think that WG should appease more strategic inclined players by adding more support oriented consumables to the core gameplay they presented recently. So smokescreen planes working similar as they made fighter consumable. Fire fighter planes or other stuff like that. Just make sure that all "consumable" planes are not "summoned" buy called to fly from your CV in a way

Added section with ideas to main post which is also visible below: What I would love to see other than obvious stuff like more information about AAA and good balance with numbers is for development team to maybe build a small bridge between old guard and the New CVs. The core is single screen and action based, but I think there is still a chance to appeal somewhat to the old players that wanted to think about a game in more strategic way. In The Potential section I mentioned how can we add more consumables to the planes. The idea of flying around and giving orders to the different type of planes like it is the case with fighters is appealing. I don't think it should be too overbearing on the players, but if we could pick couple of support planes that we could order around as consumable on high cooldown it would go a long way to give players this feeling of being in control without actually stressing them out or providing them with too much raw power. We could have: Fighter consumable Smokescreen consumable Firefighter plane consumable Mine setup consumable (easily shot down by enemy AAA so has to be set up in advance) Attackplane consumable (only rockets and DBs with very low damage) Not all of them need to be available all the time, but if we were forced to have fighters and selection of two picked ones would give CV players 3 consumables with a lot of support capabilities. With very long cooldowns they shouldn't be too OP Controlling CV is a must, otherwise no one will play aggresively. You need precision in case you need to dodge torps or shots. I would like to see toggable cinematic camera in the corner of the screen after TB drops. I mentioned that I worry that from first person perspective no one will have time to properly watch the torps swimming which is a huge part of excitement tied to this type of drop. It can be toggable in options if someone doesn't want it. I am not sure if there is place in UI for such feature, but it could also be used for BBs and gunfire if there was a place for it. So in general... You kind of betrayed people who love strategy, throw us a bone and give us some interesting tools to play around. I do think if you base your whole class around damage, class which has this finger of god design, it will be kind of annoying to balance. I think you should push it still into more of a toolbox approach. If I don't see any opening I will fly to the flank and drop some mines or setup smokescreen for someone. Not too much so they think about 10 different cooldowns or elements and distract themselves from the core, but healthy dose of variety. Fact is also that if you will need to scale down damage of carriers, support capabilities are perfect counterbalance to still keep them relevant. Pure damage I think will be a mistake. The AA is indeed big mystery right now. I do hope they plan to normalize how extreme it is. Without adressing this, I don't think CVs will work even with this really good core. Kind of why I would propose for WG to give new CVs some more strategy-like consumables. Not overbearing people with them, but throw old players a bone. I think people still want to play CVs mainly for the "grand strategy" fantasy and not dive bombers cutting through dakadaka.

What I most wanted to talk about is the flow of the new concept in the flow section. So in general to analyse why I think this type of gameplay should be universaly liked. The other big part is that when you analyse the core of the presentation you see that they try to appease pilot fantasy with it and this creates dichotomy with the carrier fantasy those ships supposed to fulfill. That is why they will not be loved and by some they will be hated as it is betreyal of the concept. Rest is fluff pretty much. I actually just spoilered all the stuff I don't consider essential to make it more readable. I agree that it was a bit of a incoherent ramble, but I am not playing anymore so I did not want to really spend a lot of time on writing proper essay. Oh CVs most likely will still be hated by people who are attacked by them. Damage over time approach is not the best for the victim. Not to mention they still retained pretty much manual drop capabilities and finger of god philosophy which was annoying so many people ^^. Still this is more of a balance thing and if the core gameplay loop is as enjoyable as I think it is... You should be able to find middle ground. There is also one big element in the current concept. The replenishment of forces happens only after you use all attacks. So you can't attack someone, leave some forces in the air around to wait for repair and in the meantime recover attack planes you just used. If you wait for someone to repair, you are pretty much 100% spending your time on just that. I think this might limit how oppresive DOT approach is, but it is defenetily something to look out for if I were a dev. The big thing is though, that even if you make CVs slightly underpowered, if the core gameplay loop is well designed, the population still will be there. Similarly if core loop is broken, even if the class is OP, it will not be very popular (like CVs were even at its prime OPness) I am THE avatar fag of this forum.

Added section on fighters. I actually like the idea of them as consumable and it is a neat solution.

Hello, as one of the people who was quite vocal on this forum regarding the need for CV reworks for years I feel the need to write something regarding todays stream. First things first What I find important during the stream was that WG focused their presentation on showcasing the core gameplay loop. Plenty of mechanics, quirks and most importantly statistics are not there. My feedback similarly will be limited to this core loop. Rest of the elements like stats or specific mechanics will be in general ignored. So lets start. The Core As of this moment, WG decided to deemphasize the strategic layer of the CV gameplay and focus almost all player attention on the screen. For the purpose of the gameplay we have one very fast and nimble unit that can perform offensive action couple of time before reseting itself to the starting position on the carrier. Attacks are performed by entering "attack mode" in which aiming indicator is shown. Attack mode is limited by time. Early during the attack mode time, the accuracy of a drop is low. With time it increases. Aiming and abillity to predict movement stays the same as it is right now, as the only thing changed is the controls and camera point of view. Principles themselves stay the same. This is very promissing concept for a core. As of this moment the best thing and feeling carriers have is the mindgames between target and cv skipper. Considering that aiming principles stayed the same, this feeling of predicting enemy movement is safe. This concept also has proper tension flow and can be expanded further. The Flow Tension flow is just emotional state of the player during every step of the game flow. For almost all of the media it can be boiled down to, Start high Slow down Increase tension above initial point, Climax and slow down below earlier slow down. So in general you want to have good mixup of slowing down and building up tension for the climax to feel good. Slowing down emphasises the highs and other way around. With that in mind lets have a look at the flow of the core on the very micro level. Lets focus on just the attack. So we have target and we fly towards it. One of the big elements in the concept is fact that operating plane is manual and you have to press button to enter time limited attack mode. This pressing attack mode button is your initial increase of tension. You commit yourself to something. It is very short moment, but after clicking it you are engaged. The domino started. Planes fly down for torpedo bombers/fly up for dive bombers. You observe initial animation which is a typical slowdown. You have no big control as of this moment and initial spike of decision making mellows down. Tension rises through the dakadakadaka all around you. Considering you also have abillity to minimize your damage by dodging you are kept on your toes while you approach to the source of bad dakadaka. Here visual aspect is really important as you want for the player to feel the excitment of diving into a gunfire. This here is a fantasy those CVs want to fulfill. The tension rises way above initial decision making. Then you press a drop button and for the DBs and Short torpedo runs you get your reward. Planes fly away and tension resets only for the circle to restart. For long TB drops the tension drops down after attack starts, but it isn't supposed to be end. You observe planes flying back and going high in the air increasing feeling of safety. Then you observer your torps swimming in water. If your prediction was correct, or wasn't. Then you have your long drop TB climax on hit. This is very good loop if properly supported visually. Additionally it is important that this concept focuses on this loop, as even with one squadron you will experience this loop fully for at least couple of times, before your planes will have to reload. This is much better than right now in which game is focused on few attacks long time inbetween each other with high cost of failure. Proposed concept is focusing on many attack with short times inbetween each other with low cost of failure (no deplane). My only concern with it is that for Long Drops people might miss the buildup of the torps swimming in water and hitting the target, because they will be too focused on their own survival. After attack you kind of want to run away and not marvel at your drop. Rockets themselves also did not look particularly exciting, they flew flat and their hits just didn't have that oomf. In general though this section is the longest because damn... This flow is fine as f.ck The Strategy The AA The Fantasy As we discussed in the earlier sections the fantasy that WG tries to fulfill here is closer to the one of the pilot. I just want to say that I feel this is kind of sad. Old CV players started game because they were in love with the ships themselves and the strategic presence they commanded. Old guy sitting with a map trying to make sense out of the all the intel he has to make a good decision. Decisions that will bear fruits after quite a while. While I can agree that this concept of rework is good and proper, there is some dichotomy here. Fans of the airplanes have better games to anwser their needs and I do not think there is many CV players that wanted to see this particular fantasy. As a result I do not believe many people will love the class even though more people will like it in general. The Potential Edit. The Fighters Edit2. The Ideas for developers The Reaction of mine In general I must commend WG dev for actually doing some proper work. Earlier work of WG on the class was straight up embarassing and many of the class problems were selfinflicted. This one at least looks like properly thought up. I find it funny that idea of playing from the point of view of planes is something I actually already was playing around in games with bots way back. You can try doing it on your own, the camera is garbage and you fight with everything just to stay in that view, but if I was trying to do it on my own years back it means that there is some inherit curiousity in this approach. The big draws to this idea really is the visual aspect (so something WG can deliver). I do have a lot of the concerns regarding specific things like, if I want to play my carrier aggresively I need a good quick way to control it in a situation when it is in danger. The tactical map is absolutely not good enough and never will be good enough! So unless WG wants for people to play very defensively with their carrier, this has to be adresssed. In general though, just because of how I like the main flow of the core loop. I will play this, I will come back to the game to try it. It looks proper, not something I will love, but concept of the fast response support attacker that has to have amazing map awarness. Might be fun, but I just kind of wished they went with the old guy with a map fantasy, the deep strategy layer. Looks fun though tldr; What I most wanted to talk about is the flow of the new concept in the flow section. So in general to analyse why I think this type of gameplay should be universaly liked. The other big part is that when you analyse the core of the presentation you see that they try to appease pilot fantasy with it and this creates dichotomy with the carrier fantasy those ships supposed to fulfill. That is why they will not be loved and by some they will be hated as it is betreyal of the concept.

This wasn't very mature post. Event most likely will be optional and I doubt WG would use those questionable designs to promote it or even in event itself. Exposure will be limited so the only thing you argue is for you to not associate yourself with those creepy weebs that like watching those chinese cartoons. Kinda childish all things considered. I also hope that there is no country in europe that would throw you in jail for looking at a picture. No matter how much in poor taste/creepy it is. Whole concept sounds just too silly to be real. On the other hand I heard that in UK someone was convicted of a hate crime because he tought his dog to do nazi salute as a joke. So maybe UK treat seeing some doodles on a computer screen as a criminal offence. Must protect those drawings man, their feelings and emotions. At the end of the day it is another anime event. It is the third one, so I would assume people would already get over it. I am more interested why Kancolle did not want to collab with WG. Obviously KC is the biggest anime franchise related to warships and easily would become what GuP is for world of tanks. Is Kadokawa really that stupid that they did not want to associate with WG to protect their stagnating franchise? Interesting stuff.

When I was playing CVs I was strong opponent of this sniping strategy. Why snipe and finish the game fast when the true enjoyment comes from interacting with enemy. It is also expensive strategy so unless someone straight up offered himself to me, I never went after them at the start. It was also to show people that you don't have to be a sniper to perform even when we had full-on sniper meta. It is a cheap one-trick pony strategy, but I also never hated people who used it as you know. It is a valid strategy. I just thought really good players should show people a performance and not cheese. They should be better than this and most of them sadly weren't. The focus on sniping instead of playing also significantly lowered overall CV player skill level at the time, on avarage carrier player was much worse than before since he never really learned how to interact with enemy CV. As you see I have strong opinions about sniping in the past, but... This is not 2015, you have plenty of tools to discourage a snipe. Think how to move your ship and fighters. When you don't see enemy planes for the first 3 minutes, get excited and focus. You clearly need to learn how to handle this cheese and you have everything you need. It is up to you

Actually my Aunt currently is fighting with cancer. Language though is more nuanced than first encyclopedic definitions. Context and intentions are always most important in communication. The style and vocabulary are just reflection of a person with whom you are talking to. Think about OP what you want, but openly ignoring context and meaning behind his post is not beneficial to the overall communication. There is a lot of emotions connected with that word, but please don't try to bring them here. No one wants to think about it and word itself in context OP used is toothless.

For me it is just cutting out most toxic elements as a quick fix. From the interviews and Q&A we can assume that WG simply put did not give any resources before to manage CVs properly. Right now they openly talk how CVs are broken and unplayable and that they have few prototypes running on their dev servers. Clearly only recently they started actually working on the class. What I see here is what we should have seen about 2 years ago when IJN also lost all their strike/full fighter setups. It is a quick fix that was delayed for a ridiculous ammount time and as such I will not hold it to a huge "rework USN" standard. American CVs still need work, but considering they mentioned need to rework AAA and Spotting, doing much more with this nation right now would be wasting resources. This move has two big benefit in my eyes: It says to CV playerbase that they started doing something. It cleans the current balance so they can have a bit more reliable live server data for research. I do agree it is a bit rougher in some tiers, but all things considered I think it is fine. They first have to deal with real problems before revitalizing USN completely, but this change here... they needed to clean that up, at least slightly. Does it also tell players that WG openly ignored CVs and treated them like thrash for almost two years? Yes. Does that change the fact that this fix is a good sign? No, this is small step in the right direction and let's appriciate it for just that.

Well, I am glad that at least you think about solutions and I do understand from what point of view you are comming from. Sadly I think removing fighters would remove a lot of good complexity from the carrier gameplay. There is actually quite a bit to fighters than people give it credit for and I think we would be kind of throwing bathwater out with a baby. You see we first have to define what CVs are really supposed to do. At the moment they are built around attacking people with manual drop and I think this direction in a way is failing. Reason is that WG does not want to properly support this kind of gameplay. It is based all about attacking and constantly doing those skillshots like from a MOBA game. If we look at the game from this perspective all fighters do are making approach a harder game for the player. They are there to discourage attacking certain points or to make it more tricky. This is good for attacking as it increases variety of situations. That is why fighters are actually really fun element and if you were to ask old school CV players that remember all strike setup meta... most of them would tell you that forced balance decks made game more fun.... but what I was... ah yes... What CVs are supposed to do. Right now we have two choices: Embrace the manual drop - WG bases whole enjoyment of class on this one little element and support it to the fullest. This would mean extensive UI rework to make it more flexible and responsive. This would mean lowering damage values of the single drop to increase frequency (to maximize the fun). Making those attacks faster and snappier (making them easier) and some TBs with very long (to highlight mindgames and support long drop). This would also require DB rework to make it more similar to TBs. This would also mean lowering speed of fighters and turning them more into sturdy zone controlers (this is to make this aproach and blocking air more prominent and fun, planes don't have to die). Embrace the strategy element - WG bases whole enjoyment class on strategic layer and careful planning. This would mean stripping most complexity from ALT-attacks, but instead introduce more decisions in game. I have a lot of ideas how to do it, but I hardly have time to finish writing the documentation down... Basic principal is that you look at the game closer to the real RTS games. So there should be multiple types of planes that are easy to use and do different things. There are multiple layers of additional mechanics you have to take into account. You decide which units you want to use (similarly to producing units from base in a RTS game). Pretty much your CV is your base, you have few slots for light, medium, heavy plane, you decide what you equip on them (produce unit) and then with very easy to use plane you do your thing. Here though it would have to be much more focus put on support elements like scouting, healing allies, buffing them, debuffing, throwing mines in a water etc. This huge complexity would be offset by the tier system as more plane types and more mechanics would be introduced with every tier, making learning experience much smoother and controlable. You need to define what is fun about CV and then think what you can do to support it. One of the reasons WG is failing for so long with CVs and why their decisions are so chaotic, dumb and pretty much against what CV community wants is that WG clearly doesn't have basic pitch of the class. Without vision and direction you are bound to fail.

It makes you think that same and same requests are showing up constantly for over two years and nothing was done with it over this time. This is just one of the old posts about AAA and look at the date, lovely isn't it? There was also plenty of dedicated topics about AAA and post I quoted is just one of many I wrote on this topic, this one is just easiest for me to find. Everyone hates AAA for as long as I remember. It is always either too weak or too strong and simplicity of it is the cause. It is kind of incredible they still did not tackle the thing most people complained about. @OP Report this as a bug. I know WG pretty much showed middle finger to anyone playing on tier IV and V, but oh well... Get used to it