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LastButterfly

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About LastButterfly

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  1. Once again tho this isn't really the right topic for that. Nothing dramatic but here such a suggestion will remain somewhat unnoticed.
  2. Premium shells in WOWS

    Er... no offense but there were many many more shell types used and as far as I know IFHE is not even one of them. Besides shell types could come in different variants including additional elements - such as a tracer or an incendiary. Also, the Sankaidan wasn't restricted to battleships.
  3. How not to derp in debates

    That's classy ? If he actually made a thread with actual text and explanation or a tiny bit of work and stuff I'd have agreed. But he googled an image and posted it. That's lazy and definitely not classy.
  4. British tier VIII premium ship HMS Vanguard

    Well, yeah, maybe I'm not using the right words to describe it. My vocabulary can still be scarce here and there, specifically in specific subject and math is one of the subject in which I never learnt proper english vocabulary so I apologize for making the whole conversation more difficult because I use approximate words. That being said, the way you understood my description is coherent with what I wanted to say and also with what you illustrate with data. I did imply a "spike" of penetration at 0° and then a sharper drop than non-supercharged shells would have, and the two curves, supercharges pens and non-supercharges pens would indeed merge at some point. However, the whole thing that makes what we both said the same thing is the nuance of the word "sharp". The point where the curves would cross, it'd be only at a range where both projectile would reach their terminal falling velocity. This point is far, far beyond the maximum range of the guns. So I never meant to say that the advantaged would be "completely nullified" beyond a certain point. I wanted to stress that it might just be not as high as anyone may think. And your data shows exactly the idea I wanted to convey : at 0km (point blanck impact litterally), supercharges strike at almost 70mps higher than non-supercharged ones. At 4km, supercharges impact at 50mps higher, already a significant decrease. At 23km, the difference is even less impactful : only 30mps higher. Before we go any further, I agree on the fact that Vanguard doesn't belong to TVII or anywhere lower. You don't want to know at which tier I put her in my trees because I break all conventions and thus it's hardly a reference at all but for you who makes wows-related trees, I totally understand and agree that Vanguard should go at TVIII. That being said I still want to challenge this fact because this is how we refine ideas. This is why I'm purposely trying to find flaws in her (and your) armor that would make her harder to defend at TVIII, and see how you defend them. Thanks for that, by the way. I'm learning a lot just with this debate. So, either way, I think we agree on the way this whole supercharges velocity thing works, but we disagree on how good it'd make her compared to others. I did a big comparison of last-gen battleship gunpower, but I hadn't included Vanguard in the lot. I'll attempt to collect as much data as I can and fit it in my comparison and see for myself. Once I'll be done (and only then) I'll gladly take a look at your analysis on the subject and if you agree, contact you to try to explain and clear up and discrepencies between our two calculations that may arise. One thing though. I suppose, since the subject hasn't been much evoked, you don't have any source and/or values for Vanguard'd accuracy, hit rate, or dispetion pattern ? This is a shame. I hoped I could have found at least one. i'll keep looking.
  5. British tier VIII premium ship HMS Vanguard

    This is the part where I always get confused wether we're talking about the ship's specs IRL or about a possible in-game implementation. If it's the latter, then I honestly wonder to what extend compartmentalisation matters. It's not like it's greatly represented in that game or any of the genra. These tend to have a much more basic look at things, caring more about wether armor can be penetrated or not rather than what happens once the armor is penetrated. on this side, Vanguard is not necessarly on the winning end. While it'd be an insult - uncalled for - to say that her armor was bad, I am not convinced of its real efficiency at a close and medium range, at least compared to other battleships of a similar tier. The rest is a difference in ideology. I am fundamentaly against the concept of tier a ship based on its best characteristic, and make it. Putting ship X at high tier "because her AA can't be any lower or else it'd be OP" only means you have to up every other aspect to make it fit. This is a wrong way to look at things - and it can't be an expection because then your trees lose consistency. I believe this here is due to how scarce my sources are. I stumbled across two different muzzle velocities regarding the super-charges, 785mps, and 804mps. With no way to know if they were for different guns or not, I assumed the higher velocity was for a new, unused gun, while after a couple shots the wear would cause the velocity to progressively decrease to the lower value. Guess I was wrong Thanks a lot for the source. This was very kind of you. I want to apologize for the misunderstanding caused by my incorrect wording. When I qualified these guns are "not the greatest of their era" I was referring to the whole turret itself, including the Mark I/N RP 12, mounted on Vanguard - and as such, by "their era" I meant the second half of WWII, because that's when the whole turret was born. The Gun in itself was unquestionably great (being "the greatest" is still up to debate but we're exiting the eras I have correct knowledge on that so I won't argue) but that was ages before Vanguard was even an idea. When she started to become more than an drawing, the gun was hopelessly and I mean hopelessly outclassed. As such, I wasn't attempting to diminish the impact of the supercharges, rather, I wanted to point out that claiming they would bring this outdated gun back in the competition is a stretch. Even if the supercharges were actually thrice as awesome as I think they actually were, I doubt the whole thing could have been considered competitive against what was done or had been done in other countries - and I am NOT talking about the Yamato at all. Unvoluntarly, you gave me gold to support my point by claiming the turret with supercharges would be able to try to keep up with the German 380mm, because that gun was probably somewhere at the bottom of the ranking of its time in several categories. Keeping up with it is grasping the hope of keeping up with the others, without reaching it. Besides, all else I said holds true. Supercharges don't solve two major factors which are shell drag and accuracy. Faster speed only means you lose speed quicker, so the advantage of speed at point-blanck is well mitigated at 20km. Supercharges would definitely increase penetration by a lot at close range, but the longer the shot would be, the smaller the advantage they give gets. As for accuracy, I have no dispertion tables at ALL so I cannot back up anything I may say, but from my knowledge of that of other modern guns, it's unlikely guns that were 20 to 30 years old would have similar hit rates to newer models, especially considering they weren't designed for firing at an especially long range anyway because back then they simply weren't capable at all, so their effective range is comparably shorter. And it'd already be a miracle if the supercharges didn't make the problem worse. These two are mainly why I am dubious about the whole supercharges stuff being enough to bring her gun power "on par" with tier 8 standards. By a long shot, if you'd allow me the pun.
  6. Meanwhile, Enterprise is awaiting her 9th reincarnation having fought in past life the British (twice), the Ottoman Empire, the Germans, the Japanese, the Soviet Union, the Vietnamese, Iraq, was an observer - though didn't fight herself - in a Chinese-French battle, and even briefly fought... the American themselves ! Of course that's only if you count the sailing ships, because American Enterprise has also been to space and even even had an incarnation as a HOT AIR BALLOON. Did I mention the NASA project Enterprise, the prototype opn which they work to achieve faster-than-light travel ? Still not beating the British though, who had 14 Enterprises, all sailing, plus one design named Enterprise, plus a couple uncommissioned small vessels of the same name. However you look at it, I think we can fairly say enterprise has exceed the amount of lives of a cat. ... Hm, somewhere in the middle I lost my point. Oh well.
  7. De gros navires sur un grand écran

    c'est quoi ces noms de bataille du n'importe kwa Shin xD Je sais que Première et Second Bataille Navale de Gudalcanal c'est long à écrire mais quand même. Si t'as la flemme balance juste Troisième Bataille de l'île de Savo.
  8. British tier VIII premium ship HMS Vanguard

    While I understand your point - and agree to some extent -, I would like to point out the irony of it. It is necessary for her to have equipment that she never historically had, because otherwise she wouldn't fit at a tier that's right for her. For all other ships people tend to go with the reverse logic - study the ship's historical equipment and then chose a tier based on that. But for some reasons everyone lock Vanguard at tier 8 first and foremost, and then tries to find a way so she'd fit there. That's pretty funny now isn't it ? That aside, I'd be curious if you have any source that details what kind of changes were planned. I mean, they built whole new mounts but never mounted them, just kept them ready in case of conflict ? Besides all that, would the supercharges really be enough to justify the whole uptier and everything ? I mean, it's not like the muzzle velocity increases that much, usually close to to 780~790mps with an average quality gun, so it's only an increase of 50~60mps or so, but the shell is the same so the drag doesn't change, which means the increase at impact is bound to be even less. Sure, in "increases range" and thus "increases performance at all range" which is the way I prefer to see things. At 23km, a shell with a supercharge would only be 30mps faster than without it ; the angle of fall is decreased by less than 4°, and elevation necessary to reach said range by 3°. There are 3 to 4 bonus kilometers which amounts to a slight increase in effective range, but dispertion counters the effect in that supercharges do not improve at all - it'd already be a miracle if they didn't decrease the accuracy at same range. So the old hitrates values remain the same, which means the bonus effective range is greatly mitigated. All in all, it's definitely "an improvement" but hardly a huge step, especially considering these guns weren't exactly the greatest to begin with at their era, so it's more of a way (or an attempt) to get up to date in performances than really gain an edge. And that's only the artillery. Sure, I can already hear that Vanguard doesn't need an "edge" at tier VIII and just needs her armament on par with others, which supercharges (arguably try to) achieve. But even so, I'm seriously wondering how she'd perform against other tier 8s, even with that. Despite her all-relative modernity, she isn't exactly cutting edge on several points, so it's possible she'd struggle anyway.
  9. British tier VIII premium ship HMS Vanguard

    Since everytime Vanguard is brought up 112% of British citizens start spamming threads with these super-charges I did a bit of research because I haven't really heard of them being used at all or being that much of a game changer. And, as far as I've read, they weren't used by Vanguard ever now have they ? No ship ever shot a single shot, even in training, with a supercharge. Besides, it would seem that they were never issued to guns that elevated at 30° because of barrel wear and stress and stuff, which would mean that Vanguard not only never fired them but probably never even carried any in the first place. I don't have many sources on subject but the few I have have proven to be very accurate on many other subjects and I couldn't find any remotely reliable source to contradict them. So why is everyone claiming Vanguard, if implemented, should get supercharges ? There's absolutely no reason she should considering she never carried, used, or had anything to do with them.
  10. De gros navires sur un grand écran

    Je sais vraiment pas comment tu fait pour aimer ça, mais respect si c'est pas du sarcasme.
  11. Les italiens avaient des amiraux moisis et des stratégiques catastrophiques. Ils n'avaient aucune chance de base au dela d'un point de vue purement technique. Si les navires étaient des drones ? Je dis pas. Mais c'était pas le cas.
  12. Bonjour

    Le truc pour les différencier Fini c'est de regarder le placement des secondaires à l'arrière. Sur Richelieu, la triple surélevé en centerline est situé plus vers le centre du navire, et celles sur les cotés sont plus proches de l'extrémité. C'est l'inverse pour les quad 130 de Dunkerque. D'autres détails plus subtils peuvent aussi servir, notamment la manière dont le pont supérieur embrasse la barbette de la tourelle B (sur Dunkerque, c'est quasiement en tangente).
  13. moustagache

    Bah... t'as afk. La cause importe peu.
  14. My point was that I can but not for the reason you think. All I intend to point is that anything beyond a tertiary scale (built/not built/fantasy) will undeniably end up as a subjective ranking. I did not attempt to make you change your mind, or convince you that my way of classifying them is better. I just wanted to show you that this tertiary ranking with which you "disagree" is in fact present within your own way of classifying ships - 1,2,3 being one step, 4 to 8 the second and 9 the third. All you did was to complexify it by using parameters that, unlike existence or reality, are subjective to various extent. In other words there's no best way to rank them, it's just that yours is far more debatable. "My" version will have a lot of ships at the same step, which can seem infuriating, butno-one can really disagree where this or that ship will rank. Your version will undeniably end up having several people rank a same ship at different steps, sometimes two or three at a time, which is bound to cause issue. That is all I meant.
  15. Destroyer Francais

    Et moi c'était juste pour la différence d'orthographe entre comptant, contant et content. Mais bon, un détail.
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