Crysantos

It doesn't matter what you'll post here, it'll be rejected or completely ignored if it can't be shrugged off with a comment. We don't have EU statistics and we won't get them, stats from other servers are dismissed or ignored - I posted them earlier today, no response. We'll get the selected stats that'll support the current opinion of the staff, that's it. But hey, we don't even get detailed patch notes these days, what are we even waiting for, this is really frustrating. Maybe I'm too spoiled from other games like Eve with its transparency and player-dev communication. But we're currently living in WoCVs, Sharana - denying the overwhelming force projected by them is closing your eyes to the current issues many players face and frustrate. We don't need to buff DDs, CAs or BBs when their balance against each other is working just fine, in general. But if the fourth class is breaking this balance, we need to tweak there, nowhere else. The issue with DDs have been named here so often and the most common one is the "spotted" issue for the DD and the torps itself. Manual drop in its current form is strong against all classes and makes it very very hard, depending more on luck than skill to survive a decent CV strike in a DD - which leaves you crippled at best. That's the issue, but we've been over this over and over again, it's easier to claim that people don't know how to use their ships and ignore all reasonable posts and statistics we have than admitting that there is something inherently wrong with the CV mechanics.

Well Ectar, we work with the data we get - if you only release selective data, how are we supposed to counter them? Asian players might be different, but the game is the same aswell as the ship attributes, they have the same issues with decent and poor ships like the Cleveland or Furutaka and apparently the same issue when it comes to CVs and the other classes. I've put some time into that post but you're still ignoring it. Show us the EU stats and how they differ from what I've posted, or don't you agree that they show a very consistent picture of class balance or let's say, imbalance of one class? Maybe just show us the balanced EU stats and make us shut up. I don't expect the DDs to do as much damage as BBs, but I expect them to get at least roughly equal XP. Maybe you need to change something about how the XP calculations work or reward strategic gameplay more like spotting, cap/decap, etc. although CVs are still going to rock XP stats due to their nature. But you don't want to hear any CV criticism, we're just on a crusade, right? We can provide as much data and reasons, personal opinion and experience as we want to, you'll just shrug it off.

klick mich Ich hab euch mal die Daten der Durchschnitts- und Profispieler für Low und High Tier aufgelistet, ist auf englisch aber bin jetzt zu faul das nochmal zu übersetzen

I think all of you are focusing too much on the value of damage, which is of course a good indicator for impact in the game, but certainly not the only factor. I think the exp per battle gives a good idea about the general performance of a ship because it takes into consideration the other factors like capping and defending. I'll show you some statistics from the Asian Servers here, feel free to make your mind up or disagree with my interpretation, but I'm pretty sure most people are going to come to the same conclusion as I do. Source is here:http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/index.html Player Average for ShipClasses (all players) at 2015/08/18: div name class players total battles average of rates battles win exp damage caused warship destroyed aircraft destoryed base capture base defense survived kill / death point 1 Higher Tier BB 4231 205865 48.66 42.32 1227 42282 0.64 3.65 0.87 4.73 44.94 1.28 27459 1 Higher Tier CA 12090 324734 26.86 41.76 991 26886 0.54 3.08 1.07 6.28 31.01 0.88 18493 1 Higher Tier CV 3092 103788 33.57 44.93 1594 56197 1.01 18.66 0.33 6.96 69.68 3.97 27525 1 Higher Tier DD 3501 86574 24.73 43.03 923 18668 0.48 0.56 2.66 4.74 26.94 0.72 21038 2 Lower Tier BB 88523 1599631 18.07 45.29 557 20974 0.51 0.66 0.95 4.41 35.27 0.87 17443 2 Lower Tier CA 111855 2235934 19.99 46.21 553 17883 0.58 0.66 0.95 7.04 22.33 0.82 16826 2 Lower Tier CV 34580 600590 17.37 44.96 809 34785 0.76 8.00 0.23 2.98 54.45 1.95 19224 2 Lower Tier DD 77011 1258967 16.35 46.54 523 15369 0.61 0.12 1.28 3.08 19.42 0.83 18607 Okay, so what do we have here at lower Tiers: the average player in a BB, CA or DD performs around 550 exp/battle, which also means they have a roughly equal damage, kills and kill death ratio. The CVs have 50% more XP per battle (800), 2.5x the chance of survival, slightly more kills but almost twice the damage caused. We could of course blame the inexperience of new players to react to CVs for these stats, on the other hand many of these CV players are just starting to get a grip of the CVs and are thus less effective. For the higher Tiers: BBs start outperforming CAs and DDs by 25% when it comes to exp/battle and damage, also resulting in a higher kill and kill death ratio. The CVs do 3x the damage of a DD, get over 70% more XP, kill twice as many ships and have a 5.5x higher kill death ratio. This mostly applies to CAs, BBs are in a better spot but still outperformed on any statistics by CVs. These are just the average players, giving an impression of the general situation ingame right now. In general you're also able to see how the player base is developing from low to high tier - BBs at high tier are 5% of the low tiers, CAs are at 10%, CVs at 10%, DDs below 5%. CAs are 3-4x more popular than any other class, DD and BB captains are obviously discouraged by the current game mechanics and result in a huge drop in high tier popularity. Now a look at the top 10% expert players at 2015/08/18: div name class players total battles average of rates battles win exp damage caused warship destroyed aircraft destoryed base capture base defense survived kill / death point 1 Higher Tier BB 424 42985 101.38 52.47 1837 66716 1.00 7.88 1.63 6.30 52.73 2.29 46082 1 Higher Tier CA 1209 87620 72.47 53.36 1422 41451 0.87 4.88 2.47 9.61 46.00 1.78 37301 1 Higher Tier CV 310 24077 77.67 57.44 2228 79218 1.48 23.10 0.71 9.01 77.30 7.80 47061 1 Higher Tier DD 351 27629 78.72 51.04 1256 29730 0.69 0.97 5.12 6.60 42.51 1.32 43609 2 Lower Tier BB 8853 499709 56.45 54.22 851 33689 0.78 1.24 1.50 6.17 48.19 1.69 36812 2 Lower Tier CA 11186 647372 57.87 56.45 865 28358 0.91 1.80 2.18 9.88 36.11 1.57 35288 2 Lower Tier CV 3458 174690 50.52 58.04 1182 51500 1.22 8.21 0.53 4.90 68.08 4.78 40239 2 Lower Tier DD 7702 393114 51.04 56.57 809 24612 0.90 0.28 2.91 4.41 32.87 1.50 40160 Now let's take a look at the expert players, see what they're able to do in their ships... low tier: Pretty much the same picture as with the average players, BBs, CAs and DDs do roughly the same amount of XP per battle, BBs do more damage while DDs and CAs fulfill more strategic goals, seen at base cap/defend stats. Kill Death rates are almost equal, kills equal for DDs and CAs, a drop there for the BBs. CVs are doing almost twice the damage of the other classes, still get 35-40% more XP, same thing applies to kills and the kill death ratio is 3x higher. High Tier population: Decent BB captains manage to apply their damage better, we can see very decent damage application. DDs get the least damage with 30k and the least XP with 1250 per battle, CAs do slightly better, BBs are perfoming well and CVs earn almost twice the XP as DDs, 56% more than CAs and 20% more than the decent BBs, same applies to damage done. Kills, same picture here, kill death ratio is even higher than in the other statistics. So yes, CVs are outperforming any other class by far, especially DDs and this is only getting more and more obvious the higher the Tier, also take a look at the development of winrates from low to high tier, where CVs perform better and win more games, thus more impact on the win chance. A comment from me on the topic of "value" - I think kills per match are the worst factor to compare ships, because the final blow on a ship is random and clever players won't waste a complete salvo with 30s reload or a torp wave to kill a 1-2k health ship. Damage and XP per battle are the better indicators for the impact of a ship. I can do this for specific Tiers if wanted, too - and if WG would release the statistics for the EU servers, we could talk real numbers.

BBs itself are fine, RNGesus might not always be on your side, but the issues many people have are related with other things like HE shells and their fire ignition rates, AP overpen damage calculations, etc. BBs have a huge amount of health, a massive damage potential if applied correctly but they are also very vulnerable to DDs and CVs. I think that's a good balance and there are just a few things I'd change about BBs in general although I'd like to see some love for the Nagato and Colorado. Everything else is not really related to the BB itself, if you got a problem with 30s reload time, play a cruiser.

Nein Trigger, geht er nicht. Was aber interessant zu betrachten wäre sind die XP per battle, die sind nämlich bei der Midway 70% und bei der Hakyryu 100% höher als bei der Shimakaze und etwas weniger bei der Gearing. Gepaart mit der Überlebensrate, Schaden, Winrates, etc. ergibt sich da ein sehr konsistentes Bild der Übermacht der CVs in allen Belangen.

Sorry Hannibal, but you're just biased towards CVs and don't want to admit it. The reason why Ganuti isn't capping more is because he's taken out by the enemy CV, I've seen this over and over again - either the CV simply parks a fighter group above his head or sends his bomber squadrons to take care of him, he's a very decent DD captain and he's usually in division with me (me US BB, him DD, nobody else), without a friendly CV. In 90% of our losses where he dies, he dies to a CV. Do your magic interpretation, everybody who reads the stats linked above can see clearly how poorly DDs perform the higher the Tier, many of those decent DD captains complain in this thread right here - and still people like you and Ectar claim it's due to personal playstyle and skill or class role. What Fletcher captain are we talking about, TriATK? Who is in general teaming up with uocat, vulgarny etc. in TX CVs, plus people like gbu29?!? Are you kidding me? This shows once more, if you team up with a CV you get way higher winrates, not due to your own skill but because of the power of the CV - combined with a few other capable captains that usually a guaranteed win. This is what happens when you just release selective stats instead of a transparent complete data set, this only supports the same thing like you did there, tearing it out of context and interpreting it that way that it'll fit your opinion. Check the stats linked, everybody. You'll see what ships perform well, what classes do well, which ones don't. Clevelands or Furutakas, Colorados - proving the general impression of what ships do well or poorly - and also showing a clear picture of what classes dominate and which ones suck. I can tell you, your precious CVs in the current form and meta of the game are the worst fun killers for a lot of people and I sincerely hope that WG isn't as blind as you are, hopefully taking more steps towards balance than what's coming up next. @ttchip: Agreed and I have the same impression ;)

Du kennst meine Meinung dazu, ich stimme dir da voll zu und argumentiere schon seit längerem ja warum die aktuelle Lage so ist. Schreib doch auch mal was in den Ectar-Gedächtnisthread hier ich denke je mehr DD Kapitäne dort ihre Probleme posten, desto mehr Aufmerksamkeit wird sich darauf richten - deutsche Subforen sind meist eher ungeliebte Kinder und werden gern ignoriert. @Trigger: Witzigerweise sind die Infos auf dem asiatischen Blog hier (der auch in englisch geschrieben wird) deutlich detaillierter als die für den europäischen/amerikanischen Blog, müsst dort nur mal die Infos vergleichen zum Thema 0.4.1.

Everything working as intended, CV balanced just fine, please move on. We'll only see the statistics that are going to support this for the EU servers - take a peek at the asian server data to see your point proven. We could get all TX DD captains in here to share their stories, but it would be just shrugged off anyway. @Ammboz: Sorry, but Ectar is right about BBs and the love of RNGesus. But hey, there's one class who doesn't have RNG ;)

Die Arkansas ist ein Dreckspott, der seinesgleichen sucht und meist in der Form der Colorado Gesellschaft findet. Ich hab sie abgewrackt und mich über den Hafenstellplatz gefreut, meine Matrosen und Hafenarbeiter machen sich immer noch die über diese Ansammlung von Altmetall lustig. Arkansas hat mir daher 375k Credits eingebracht, beim Verkauf - genauso wie die Albany. Die Yubari ist im Moment relativ unspielbar und beiße mir immer noch in den [edited] mir nicht die Greyma gekauft zu haben. Geld mache ich wie Trigger mit CVs, einfacher kommt man da kaum ran

Ja kann ich bestätigen, du musst glaube ich 15-20%, weiß leider nicht mehr den genauen Wert, immer bezahlen. Ich denke mal da geht einiges für Hafennutten, Koks und Parties drauf!

Das stimmt so einfach nicht, jeder Kreuzer sollte sehr genau aufpassen was er macht gegen einen fähigen BB Kapitän, sonst rumpelts nämlich in der Zitadelle. DDs müssen nah ran and wer ständig nur geradeaus fährt, muss es eben auf die harte Tour lernen. CVs sind unausgegoren, das mag sein - alles andere hat eigentlich eine gute Balance ingame, klar kann man am Feuer und RNGesus schrauben, aber sonst finde ich das nicht so schlimm - und das sage ich dir als großer BB Fan. Was ich von der Tirpitz bisher gesehen habe gefällt mir sehr sehr gut, scheinbar ne kleine Zitadelle, guter Speed und Wendigkeit, Kaliber könnte größer sein aber reicht um zu brawlen, plus die Torps für den absoluten Notfall. Ich sag mal Tier III-IV sind ne Qual, Tier VII auch ein murks aber alles andere ist auf beiden Seiten wirklich konkurrenzfähig und spaßig zu fahren - am besten in einer Division, damit man sich als Team organisieren und gegenseitig helfen kann. Kein l2p, kein mimimi, nur meine persönliche Meinung, die nicht böse gemeint ist. BB fahren erfordert mittlerweile sehr viel Wissen und Erfahrung, das bringt nur die Zeit - also Arschbacken zusammenkneifen, ist es wert mMn.

Fand die Überschrift doch so unterhaltsam um hier mal reinzuschauen Das einzig sinnvoll diskutable aus dem Fred hier wäre - der Frustfaktor ist im Moment scheinbar sehr hoch, die Frage ist nur ob sich das von Forum auf die Mehrheit im Spiel übertragen lässt oder ob dies nur ein persönlicher Eindruck ist.

You started pointing fingers at personal stats, not me. Yes, of course I'm talking about IJN CVs at all Tiers and USN CVs are strong at IX and X, everything below that is a pain to play - we'll have to see how the nerf to the plane layout is going to work out. And no, this isn't just a low-mid Tier issue, it's also applying to high tier games where AA is strong but the ability of CVs to simply resupply on the fly is able to counter that - which is fine for me. But the next patch still doesn't solve the issue of spotting and killing DDs, agreed? I'm not saying they're so OP in every aspect, I'm pointing out that currently their ability to detect torps and DDs combined with the ease due to current manual drop mechanics most DDs can be killed is too strong right now. This makes Hightiergames so dependent on CVs and their abilities, forcing both teams to form a blob - every ship that leaves that blob is your main focus. There is no other ship that has such an impact on the win or lose of a game like a CV, or am I wrong about that? Given the limitations, that even get tighter with the next patch, I think it's save to say yes.

Never said it was proof, just wanted to say that I do play CVs before somebody tries to tell me I have no idea because I don't play this class. I play CVs for the obvious reasons, farming credits and flags not because I love to play them. But it doesn't actually make any difference, the issues I've posted are real and at least somebody in WG agrees, considering these first steps to rebalancing in the next patch. I've stated the obvious facts on the first page of this thread (#11 and 6 weeks ago) and yes, I'll try to give feedback on the game as long as we're in Beta so that we can make this game work for all classes, step by step. You're an outstanding CV captain, I've played against you and I thought you might give more detailed reasons why I'm wrong than my stats - while your own are just proving my point. I don't want no nerfhammer, I don't even argue for changes when it comes to CV vs. BBs and as you can see, that's my favourite class. But the issues I see are posted above, not in connection with my personal favourite ships (in contrast to you) and in general related with the question whether the current gameplay at high tier games is what WG imagines it to be like.

If they stick to the group, it usually renders them useless, creating a situation that they would be better off in a CA and more helpful to the team. Their torpedoes get spotted so far away that most ships can evade, they're bound to their blob and don't have the range to do damage. I agree with you and the points you made regarding TX AA. I just think it's not a healthy "end"-gameplay that revolves around one class that much, that it's actually able to dictate the battle like this and forcing both teams to play as blobs. I think it's going to be very interesting to see Clanwars and the shipclasses they choose, wonder how many DDs we'll see there with the current mechanics. I'm all for CVs in a naval game, I just think the current force projected by CVs is not in line with most other classes. I play them aswell (average player) and my stats with them are way out of line with most of my other classes. P.S.: Just as a preemptive comment - we're in an arcade game, detached from realism. Please don't post the superiority of CVs during WWII, we're aware of it but WoWS is supposed to be one thing, fun - for all classes and that requires balance for all players.

Sure, as usual with most games. But even you agree that DDs are easy to kill and your priority in the TX games when possible.

I'd like to disagree and in most of my TX games I can vouch for the priority of most CV players - the enemy DD. As Hannibal put it, the ships first to detach from the green blob are the DDs, trying to sneak around or scout. It's absolutely no problem for most CV captains to fish them out of the water, some might survive but are crippled for the rest of the fight and their torps get spotted so early that they can't apply their damage. I usually tag along with a decent DD captain and I can see his pain each game. I think if you look at the current endgame gameplay, it's the best choice for the CV to go for the lone DDs because the rest is forming a big ball of love to combine their AA, which I love to call blob. I'm not talking about idiotic BBs detaching from the group, but the in my honest opinion boring endgame strategy to stick together as close as possible to combine your AA, because everything else is going to be obliterated by the enemy CV. DDs are useless, especially the USN ones and most battles are fought on mid-max range in that Tier if the map allows it. Watch any TX ocean map game, prove us wrong. The statistics are always a matter of interpretation and lower Tier population usually suck at CV gameplay due to its very different approach to gameplay than all other classes (probably evening out the higher Tiers), but if most of your hightier population in here says - hey, something is wrong with that, maybe you should consider that there's something to it. I don't play DDs too often but I do see how utterly useless they are in most games and how easy it is for CVs to kill them. I think that's something that needs to be looked at, for the sake of a balance of all classes and no other ship has such an impact on the success of a team like the CV. Take a look at the statistics of the TX CVs atm and show us that we're wrong. Damage per battle, win rate, kill/death ratio, kills per battle, exp per battle, even when losing most CVs outclass the own team by far. The risk vs. reward balance is there for all classes, just the CV is breaking this - won't you agree? Sorry but I do understand people bitching in here when the staff is trying to state that CVs are perfectly balanced with other classes and so many people with hundreds and thousands of battles disagree, even when playing that class themselves. The amount of players playing CVs are due to hard and rough start in CVs and the crappy UI in an arcade game, that most people play to shoot ships with big guns and torps, not clicking on a 2D map.

Wenn du die Atago hast, würde ich das als absolutes Farmingschiff nehmen, ähnlich wie die für ihren Tier extrem starke Murmansk (sehr sehr guter Allrounder).

Wobei ich finde dass Teamplay und Skill Hand in Hand gehen in WoWS, besonders durch den Siegbonus. Es gibt immer Egospieler, aber ich finde meistens klappt das halbwegs (ab Tier VI aufwärts) ordentlich abgesehen von den Premiumkapitänen. Die meisten Spieler wissen grob was sie tun, halten sich aus eigenem Überlebensinstinkt bei der Gruppe, greifen das an was am meisten Sinn für sie macht und iwann muss man mal pushen. Der Faktor "Absprache und Teamplay" finde ich in den unteren Tiers deutlich einflussreicher... Kann mir da konstant an den Kopf langen wie Leute einfach ihren eigenen Stiefel entgegen aller gut gemeinten Ratschläge und Pläne durchsetzen wollen.

Im Moment sehe ich auch den MMer als extremen Faktor, im Hightier gehen 90% der Spiele für das Team mit den höheren CVs aus, Ausnahmen sind Seltenheit. Ich glaube ich habs in der letzten Woche genau einmal erlebt, dass wir es als non-CV Team geschafft haben gegen ne Hakyryu mit nem Push auf den Cap zu gewinnen. Sonst ists im Moment wirklich noch sehr random was der MMer da in die Teams steckt, bei ausgeglichenen Teams gewinnt natürlich das Team mit Skill und Kommunikation, wobei letzteres bei dem Spiel mit steigendem Spielverständnis und Erfahrung in den Hintergrund rückt.

Unfortunately I got no answer to my post, so I'll try with a more direct approach - what role do you want the DDs (escpecially low-ranged US DDs) to fulfill in this blob vs. blob scenario, where the lone wolf gets dropped upon by the CV?

Ehrlich gesagt ist das extrem situationsabhängig und am wohlsten fühle ich mich im 12-15 km Bereich, da treff ich gut und kann halbwegs vernünftig reagieren.

<3

Ich spiele sowohl in Divisionen, als auch einzeln und habe keinerlei Erfahrung mit WoT, daher kann ich dazu keine Aussage treffen. Allerdings ist mit in nun gut 1.000 Matches seit dem Beginn der OBT sehr stark aufgefallen, dass der MM Divisionen sehr wohl als stärker einschätzt und z.B. den Flugzeugträger ins gegnerische Team steckt, außerdem sind Extrem-MM-Fälle durchaus häufiger der Fall als es nur zum "Einzelbeispiel" zu degradieren. Natürlich spielen hier viele Faktoren eine Rolle, geringe TX-Population, ungleichmäßge Verteilung auf die unterschiedlichen Klassen, etc. - aber trotz allem finde ich, dass man gerade in einer Beta noch genug Raum für Verbesserungen hat und nicht alles als in Stein gemeißelt hinnehmen muss. Es gibt gewisse MM Szenarien, die man bei WG einfach ausschliessen kann, wie ungleiche Spieleranzahl oder 5-6 DDs gegen größtenteils CAs. Was mir ein wenig schleierhaft ist, ist die MM Verteilung im Midtier, wo in letzter Zeit extrem häufig wirklich T III gegen T VI gematched wird - häufig ist das Opfer eine Kawachi oder South Carolina - kann sicherlich an der immer dünner werdenden BB-Population liegen, aber grundsätzlich trotzdem seltsam wie die Schiffe verteilt werden - denn eigentlich sollten in diesem Bereich hunderte bzw. tausende Spieler zu verteilen sein. Ich freue mich auf das neue MM in 0.4.1 und hoffe, dass einige Dinge ausgemerzt werden. @Shalanor: Divisionen sind ein eigenes Thema, ich finde sie wirklich hilfreich und spaßfördernd. Natürlich haben sie einen Einfluss auf die Siegrate, aber machen trotzdem im Normalfall nur maximal 25% des Teams aus - also genug Potential im eigenen Team mit Absprache das auszugleichen. Ich glaube du überschätzt auch den Faktor des "im TS seins", denn man kann natürlich Infos leichter weiterleiten, aber in den meisten Fällen bringt es keinen um schnell zu tippen was zu tun ist oder ein Ziel zu markieren. Die neuen ranked battles sind eh divisionsfrei soweit ich weiß, also ist dein Wunsch eh in Erfüllung gegangen