Crysantos

Ich finde es immer ein schwieriges Thema, allein die Tirpitz hat das schon extrem deutlich gezeigt - was die Entwickler sagen wollten habe ich so interpretiert... 1. es werden nur "einzigartige" Schiffe ausgewählt 2. Balance ist immer schwierig, man versucht die Schiffe durch spezielle Features abzuheben, die dann von guten Spielern sehr gut genutzt werden können. 3. es gibt scheinbar wirklich verschiedene Modifikatoren bei den Premiumschiffen, nicht nur klassenspezifische 4. Premiumschiffe sollten nicht grundsätzlich stärker sein als voll ausgebaute Schiffe, sind aber natürlich Stock-Versionen überlegen 5. Kitakami... sie umschiffen ja sehr gerne das Thema "Noob im Hightier", aber die Kitakami ist genau deshalb erstmal aus dem Spiel genommen worden 6. das mit der Crew... ich denke da geht es um zukünftige Features, denn aktuell levelt der Kapitän ja 1:1 mit gewonnenen XP Ich mach grade ne Statistik zum Thema Premiumschiffe im Vergleich zu ihren "normalen" Gegenstücken - und auch da muss man die Statistiken mit Bedacht betrachten. Grundsätzlich würde ich aber Belohnungen in Form von Schiffchen sehr begrüßen, besonders für Events!

I agree with that, the MM is a huge factor for the importance of a ship and I've seen this crappy MM with non-division TX ships being on one side only. The more balanced the MM (equal numbers of classes, or at least not mostly BBs), the easier it is for CAs. The more BBs (the natural counter to CA) the harder it gets... with the lack of enemy CAs it's an evil MMing for any TX CA. Btw. don't get my wrong, I think we should limit max range in WoWS to get rid of this stupid sniping at max range, which would help CAs a lot.

Hey there, Here's the update to the original thread here - I'll keep this one here updated until a major patch hits that needs a closer look. Today we'll look at the following things: - changes to last week - battle of nations! comparison of IJN and USN ships for each class - player distribution (class, Tier, nation) - TIX and TX population EU server stats are available here: http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/index.html First of all - BATTLE OF NATIONS RAAAAWR = IJN ships compared to USN ships (+% means better, -% means worse). Here the current stats for the term 19.9 - 26.9. compared to the term 12.9. - 19.9. (these are RELATIVE changes, just to compare how players changed their ships and performances). JPN ships: USN ships: player distribution ingame for all Tiers (term 19.9 - 26.9.): player distribution at top Tiers (TIX and TX; term 19.9 - 26.9.): Okay, let's discuss... battle of nations first BBs: USN BBs are far more popular and the first choice for new players, suggesting a general "bias" of EU players for USA USA USA. The Kawachi is actually the better ship (probably the reason for WG to buff the South Carolina's HP in 0.5.1) - it deals more damage, gains substantially more XP and wins more games. The Myogi is the ugly low Tier ship and is underperforming in most categories besides the "not so low" aircraft kill rate. Mid-Tier is where IJN BBs shine, they're doing more damage, more XP and win more games - the unloved Nagato is outclassing the Colorado by far, only to be beaten in aircrafts killed. At Tier VIII we can see a pretty balanced situation of IJN and USN BBs - The Amagi deals more damage, but has less AA and a lower survivability. This also results in pretty even player numbers at higher Tier games despite the initial strong USN BB playerbase. Tier IX... no surprises here, the Izumo is the worst ship of the line and the "+%" in average battles isn't something to be proud of, it simply shows that the average Izumo captains has to invest way more time (=battles) to get to the Yamato (free XP not as influential as in lower Tiers, due to a grind of 350k XP to the Yamato). Once there, the Yamato is obviously the better choice and far more popular when it comes to battles per player - no need to grind at TX and people enjoy whooping 40% more battles. Yamato's power are the strong guns - represented by 12% higher damage, it has a better win and XP rate, resulting in 12% more points. The lack of AA power only result in a mediocre better survivability rate than the Montana. IJN supremacy: Kongo, Fuso, Nagato and Yamato USN supremacy: Wyoming, Iowa CAs: Same issue here that we've seen on the BB line, EU players love their USN ships at first. The low Tier Tenryu and mid-Tier ships Furutake (even after rebalance) and Aoba are underperforming in all areas compared to their USN counterparts. Besides those ships though... IJN CAs rule the seas. They're far better at dealing damage, earning XP and winning games - culminating in a devastating performance of the Des Moines compared to the TX Zao. The Zao deals 40% damage, earn 30% more points and wins 12% more games... only category where it's not superior is aircraft kills, but that's only 12% difference. IJN supremacy: Kuma, Myoko, Mogami, Ibuki (still not good though) and ZAO USN supremacy: St. Louis, Omaha, Cleveland CVs: Interesting category post 0.4.1 - after the rebalance IJN supremacy in CV matters is over- but are they balanced now? Hosho and Zuiho have less players, again. But they manage to outperform their USN buddies due to their 2x TB squads - resulting in way more damage dealt, more XP and higher winrates - but kill far less planes (40% less). This proves the point many people make on the forums, the IJN fighters are underpowered, especially at Tier IV, V and VIII - where the Shokaku manages to get higher damage, XP and winrates, but its planes rekt. At Tier VII the Hiryu is still outperforming the Ranger with only slightly less planes killed. At TIX and TX we can see that the Essex and Midway are the current kings of the seas - damage, ships killed, points - but the plane kill rates are pretty even, same as winrates, where the Hakyryu is able to win more matches than the Midway, despite its performance. IJN CVs seem to be able to still make use of their damage potential - the rewards for plane kills are still pretty much non-existent, proven by the USN CAs and USN CVs, that are able to kill far more planes but less XP. IJN superiority: Hosho, Zuiho, Hiryu USN superiority: Essex, Midway DDs: Apparently the EU players got the note that the IJN DDs are interesting and fun to play. Tier II and III have slightly less players, but after that the entire DD class is dominated by the Japanese Navy. The higher concealment and torpedo range lead to a far higher survivability rate and damage numbers. The XP earned by both nations are pretty balanced, which shows that USN DDs execute a lot of strategic goals like capping. The Benson and Fletcher are able to outperform their IJN rivals, the first USN DDs to have reasonable torpedo range, they still deal less damage but manage to win more games and get more XP. At TX the Shimekaze is outperforming the Gearing once more - 11% higher winrate, 42% higher damage, 28% higher survivability - the lack of AA doesn't seem to hurt too much (which isn't really surprising at TX, where the DD AA can't do much about TX planes anyway) - and 23% more average battles. The Gearing doesn't seem to have the upper hand despite the newly added AA feature, it still dies way more often. IJN supremacy: Umikaze, Isokaze, Minekaze, Shimekaze USN supremacy: ... none, but Benson and Fletcher perform okay-ish About the general changes to last week - no major patch hit, so I'll keep it short: We see a higher influx of new players, which is very good and healthy for the entire game - these players show better performances than last week. In general we can see a drop in TX performance and damage, probably a matter of "less" lower Tiers getting matched and rekt by TX and the lower numbers of Tirpitz battles. Player base analysis: In general we can see some interesting shift in the general player preference of class and nations. At lower Tiers CAs are the most popular class and the EU players favor USN ships from the start. When it comes to higher Tiers, we can see that many people switch over to IJN ships. BBs are the most popular TX ships, followed by CAs. Especially USN DDs are hurting at TX, only 57 EU Gearings are out there right now, compared to roughly each 300 Yamatos and Montanas or 215-ish Des Moines and Zaos. It's safe to say that people favor damage - probably because WG and WoWS in general favor damage over everything else. The more damage a ship can deal, the higher the winrate and XP. ---------------------------------------------------- part 2, quoted from below ------------------------------------------------------ Okay, here we go with part 2 of the battle of nations analysis. How do players perform on each ship? How does the average player's performance reflect top player performance, is it able to show a general "potential" of a ship? I've taken a look at the average player statistics and top 10% player statistics of maple's website - and I've parsed the Top10 players in terms of damage at warshipstats.com - the only "issue" are the CV stats, I had to take the top10 maple players (reason is simple, the top10 in terms of damage are pre-nerf for IJN CVs) - and maple has a different equation to measure top players, focusing mostly on winrate (certainly a factor, but if we want to see what a ship is capable of, I'd focus on XP and damage - winrates are often blurred by divisions for top players). So please read the following things with caution and put it in perspective - like the last CV nerfs, Mogami/Myoko should perform a tad worse now than represented in the top10 stats. We're still suffering from WG's XP shenanigans, making them a bit "off" with the premium account / confederate flag stuff counting in, so be careful about that parameter- but I think WG is going back to the regular base XP calculations with 0.5.1. First of all - the battle of nations in terms of XP and damage for each ship: IJN ships in detail (sorry, I know it's not the perfect way to show this, but wanted to have this in one image) USN ships: comparison of the Top10 players of each ship: I had this chart for the averge players in my last analysis, now I wanted to show how top players cope with better or worse ships... IJN: USN: So, what's different to the usual player base statistics? The only major difference is in the performance of the Kawachi vs. South Carolina - only the top players seem to be able to make use of the South Carolinas power (my guess would be the clever use of their range advantage). The Tenryu - St. Louis situation is improving with increasing skill, but the American CA is still able to deal more damage and gain more XP. The usual suspects Izumo, Colorado, Myogi and Furutake are still underperforming and the gap is actually increasing with better players. The TX dominance is not as overwhelming as for average players, but Zao and Shimekaze are still dealing 25% more damage, Yamato is still doing better than the Montana but in a more healthy region of 8-9%. Take a look for yourself, make up your own mind - I can only give you a hand how to interpret these statistics and it's still only my personal opinion - but at least we can see a pretty consistent and clear image of how players, no matter whether they're just the average Joe or the absolute top player, perform with these ships. In all cases besides the Kawachi (which is the first BB of the line) the average player's performance can be translated into rough estimations about the ship's capabilities.

Due to the lack of major patches and changes nothing interesting to report, but I'm working on a premium ship episode of statistics galore

I think Exustio's post is the most fitting one, at least for my personal opinion. You do make some good points but shrugging high Tier CAs off in general is something I can't understand. We're saying they're allrounders and that has its perks, you say they are undecided - which is basically 2 sides of the same medal. I tried to give the OP a balanced opinion about what to expect when playing high Tier CAs... I know how annoying and hard to kill CAs can be if played properly. That's part of the transition and what I meant with "BBs are more forgiving"... DDs and CAs can do quite some damage and decide a game, it's just way riskier and mistakes are usually punished more severly than in a BB. I point out people like Izoz (yep, with Icey) because they can show you the potential of a ship. In general, let's get away from a ship is supposed to be X or Y, we're not in a simulation, this is an arcade game - and the most important thing here is balance, not historical accuracy. Remember the CA domination in CBT, where the Des Moines was a beast and cruisers in general? Now look what they had to do to bring her in line, they shattered her dominance - they had to do the same thing to the Cleveland. I think WG should buff Pensacola and the Baltimore, slight improvements on the NO and Des Moines would bring them more in line with the other ships. Come on, don't do this..."cooperating with a BB is good for every ship"... no it's not, but I can also say teamplay always wins. Wow. A DD isn't better when tagging along with a BB and the CA's advantages differ in this situation. Some might want to drop their torps, so they need to be way closer to the frontline, while others want to cover their BBs. The USN line is the one suited best for that, usually they have okay-ish range, they can cope with most enemies and use their AA consumable (so much for BBs are so much better at AA, no they are not - and play a Yamato or Montana to tell me how OP their AA is, getting rekt by a Midway or even Essex) to fight off CVs. So please, try to be a bit fairer and honest when it comes to the actual role and feeling of a ship. I know the Des Moines is only a shadow of its former glory, but it can be an extremely helpful ally - I'd rather have 1-2 additional Des Moines and Zaos in my team than another X Derpitzes trying to get in torp range of a Shimakaze.

I think Exustio probably nailed it, at least from my point of view. In general BBs are more forgiving when it comes to mistakes, the large HP pool enables you to make a mistake without dying right away or being crippled for the battle. Most people can't cope with the progression from light cruisers to heavy cruisers when it comes to the US Navy. I personally liked the New Orleans, which is a very decent and agile cruiser, good armor and AA makes it the allrounder - you won't do damage records but it's a very reliable and fun ship. The Baltmore, much like the Ibuki, is in a bad spot - compared to the CVs and BBs (at least Iowa), even DDs on that Tier - because it doesn't get much improvement besides the HP consumable. The problem right now, as you put it, is the lack of "AA role" of the USN CAs - and the fun fact that an Essex is still going to wreck you if it wants to. But I still think these ships are pretty capable - haven't tried the Des Moines yet,in OBT but it seems to be a TX Cleveland - and can be annoying as hell. For me it's the main job to harrass BBs and CVs, punch other CAs and occasionally hunt the DD - but doing that on your own is really risky. The USN CAs don't work as brawlers like the IJN ones do, where you can use your torps to drop the hammer on a BB - so it's a bit more complicated. The IJN cruiser line is one of the best ingame and the Zao is a predator, seriously - watch Izoz use his one to show you its capabilities. The USN CA tree is a bit difficult to judge because of the change of mentality from HE spam to something in between light cruiser and battleship - these ships can be quite good and punch out a lot of damage while being a very helpful teamwork hull (and that's where it shines imo, working with BBs covering each other). The biggest issue I see is range - and unfortunately many TX fights are max range fights. Never underestimate the role of CAs though, a decent Des Moines or Zao captain is always a big plus for the team.

Absolutely one on one a BB? Yes, you can harrass a BB and maybe even burn it down, but it won't be a little dance around him while happily burning him down with no problem. I've seen only a few guys that manage to do way more than 50k damage on average with the Pensacola, considering that most BBs have more HP than that ... not a common scenario and in most cases the BB is bound to win that duel. Pensacolas are imho decent CA hunters (due to their guns) and are strong in a small fleet as support, but certainly nothing to brawl in on your own. They're just too vulnerable and need to go into BB's favourite range to apply their damage.

I agree on most points, I think it's a pretty okay-ish cruiser - but is there room for improvement to bring it a bit more in line with the Myoko or Cleveland? I think so, maybe tweak the size of the citadel or give it a slightly higher RoF / range. The stock version is really bad though ;) btw. have fun with the New Orleans, I really love that ship.

Happy to see that we'll get a lot of the things we've been asking for the past months, seriously I love what WG is trying to change the next weeks. But what's your opinion about the current TX situation?

Bisher ist das, was ich von der Königsberg gesehen habe nicht so toll, aber mal selbst antesten und berichten

Never trust horror stories, people like to exaggerate. A decent player with a premium account is able to break even, if you lose your ship a CA should cost roughly 220-250k, a BB around 300k - considering the amount of damage (main source of income) you need to do to make that money plus camo and consumables. That's your math. And that's the reason why people are so reluctant to commit or risk their ships, making these "top" fights rather dull and uninteresting. I really like the idea of an entrance fee to a TX battle, you know what to expect and you don't need to worry about lost HP without the urge to yolo for free. If the TX situation would be fine... we would see more TX only fights, especially at EU prime time. I think it wouldn't hurt the game to tweak it to compensate for the lack of players compared to WoT, apparently many players feel that there is quite some room for improvement when it comes to this part of WoWS.

Believe me, I understand the issue with money - the idea is to remove repair costs (roughly 250k on a CA, 300k on a BB) and on the other hand get no credit rewards. When it comes to the "quality" of TX games - and I think many people that play high Tier ships on a regular basis agree - it's not like it's a supreme elite using these ships now. I see so much bullsh*t going on in TX games you wouldn't believe it, I doubt the general "level of skill" would go much downhill with a higher influx of new players at TX. Neither people afraid to lose 200-400k per game and afraid to commit to a fight, max range fights nor people yolo-ing due to 0 credits cost are healthy for the game, so we need a decent compromise. You still need to grind a sh*tload of credits to actually buy and upgrade the ship (talking about 20 million credits) but the maintenance would be easier, premium ships are certainly nice for grinding isks but I play mine for the fun of it, with the benefit of good income, but certainly wouldn't stop playing them due to this change. But if the pressure is on a healthy level with a mediocre entrance/servicing fee, we could have a real TX population and fairer fights - which would benefit most people on Tier 8 and above - take a look at the player distribution right now, I doubt that we'll see a 90% TX population and deserted low-mid Tiers with the current game mechanics. Check out my second link in my sig to see how many players are actually playing Tier IX or X. WG can simply adjust the costs if they see a unwanted amount of TX battles to keep it in check. I don't know any player besides a few CV captains that actually just pushed one line / class to play that particular TX with no intention to play and grind other classes. But just my 2 cents on this ;)

It's never supposed to be profitable - if you get no credits, there's no profit. You still need to pay ammo and your premium damage control, camo, etc.

Yep, that's what I meant with servicing fee.

Im Grunde genommen geht das mit vielen Schiffen, wenn man sie darauf auslegt (auch eine New Orleans oder Baltimore kann das). Es ist halt eine meist schmale Zone (und da stimme ich dir zu, sollte nicht mehr als 2-3 km überschreiten), die man leicht unterschreitet oder durch Fokus darauf sich in andere Gefahren begibt. Ist es unfair? Ansichtssache, ich finde jede Klasse sollte ihre eigenen Spezialfähigkeiten haben - BBs haben enormen Bumms und können Kreuzer mit ein-zwei Salven weghauen auf überlegener Reichweite. Dafür können DDs eben Torps abfeuern, smoken und unsichtbar schiessen (in manchen Fällen). Ich finde solange es ausbalanciert ist und nicht zu extrem wird ein gutes Feature und man muss seine Skills darauf auslegen - und es muss deinem Spielstil entgegenkommen. Im übrigen ist das eigentlich schon seit Monaten bekannt, scheint nur jetzt erst in der breiteren Masse angekommen zu sein.

Holt die Fackeln und Mistgabeln raus! REVOLUTION! Ach halt. Irgendjemand schaut sich diese Statistik ernsthaft an? Gibts nen neuen Modus? Marathon? Langlauf? In WoWS sind die Dinge halt skaliert und es ist ein Arcadespiel. Die Schiffe haben HP, sie können in wenigen Sekunden wenden und in 20 Minuten ist die Schlacht vorbei

Danke fürs Lob, aber gibt genug gute Spieler und vieles hängt vom Team ab. Das wichtigste ist und bleibt dass man Spaß an der Sache hat, der Rest kommt meist durch Übung! Edith sagt: Omaha OP? Nein, aber seit dem Reichweitenbonus vergleichbar gut - ich nutze meist die Torps nur im Notfall oder als Abschreckungsmittel um auf Distanz zu bleiben auf der Murmansk, sonst ist die Omaha vergleichbar. Glaube nicht, dass ich mit der Omaha ähnliche Werte erreichen könnte, aber hab sie seit dem Buff nicht mehr gespielt. Hab sie in CBT und OBT pre-buff angespielt, fands sie kacke. Seitdem hat der Buff einiges bewirkt, die Kanonen drehen deutlich schneller, die Torps sind stärker und der höhere RoF hilft auch - ist der Omaha noch unterlegen (Reichweite, fehlender "HE-Spam"-Faktor") aber dafür ein ganz guter Kreuzerjäger. Als dauerhafter Hafengeselle kaum geeignet, aber der Grind zur Aoba ist deutlich angenehmer geworden. Die Murmansk ist vom Kopfzerbrechen her genauso nervig wie eine Cleveland. Ein gut gespieltes Schiff bereitet einem immer Ärger, selbst Schiffe wie die Izumo oder Colorado. Ich fokussiere Murmansks und Clevelands wenn möglich wenn ich im BB fahre auf dem Level - hab schon genug Tier VI und VII BBs abgefackelt. Sie ist jetzt sicherlich nicht der böse Endboss, aber gerade im Verband mit anderen Schiffen einer der nervigsten Gegner, auf die du treffen kannst.

Not really... imo it's not a great ship, Tier IV BBs are in general pretty bad and lack AA, thus easy prey for CVs. If you like the Myogi without its range, go for it but otherwise...get a Murmansk!

Kein Thema, weiß ja wieviel Arbeit da drinnen steckt. Ich habs mit Absicht ins englische Forum gestellt, da die meisten Deutschen ja Englisch zumindest haaalbwegs verstehen - wenn genügend Interesse da ist, kann ichs auch nochmal ins deutsche Unterforum übersetzen. Freut mich aber wenns dir helfen konnte! Werde demnächst mal ne Übersicht der Performance der beliebtesten Premiumschiffe machen, wird sicherlich interessant ;) Nur eins... die Murmansk OP? In den richtigen Händen, jap. Ich freu mich über 75% Winrate und fast 80k Durchschnittsschaden

Ich glaube ganz so einfach ist das nicht, da zum einen warshipsstats nicht das Abbild des gesamten Servers darstellt, zum anderen sind die Daten veraltet, weil sie noch die Pre-Nerf Statistiken miteinbeziehen (v.a. was die IJN CVs angeht). Daher muss man solche Dinge und Werte mit genügend Abstand betrachten und differenzieren, von wem und zu welchem Zeitpunkt man die Werte nimmt. Ich hab mir vor kurzer Zeit im englischen Forum die Mühe gemacht die aktuellen (Serverintervall) Statistiken zu vergleichen - Teil 1 ist der aktuelle Vergleich pre-post Nerf was die CVs angeht (und anderer kleinerer Änderungen), Teil 2 vergleicht Topspieler mit Durchschnittsspielern: Statistics galore - State of WoWS (weekly update) Statistics galore - State of WoWS (weekly update #2) Gute Arbeit, aber bitte achte auf die Quellen und wie die Daten erhoben wurden und wo, nur dann lässt sich ein verlässliches Bild zeichnen und Fazit ziehen.

It increases your detection range for other ships - I would go for higher concealment.

Also ich glaube das liegt kaum an WG, bisher hatte ich bei allen Käufen (Paypal) die Schiffe/Premiumaccount sofort verfügbar. Sobald deine Bank das überwiesen hat, wird das Schiff in deinem Hafen stehen - nächstes Mal würde ich das direkt über paysafecard/paypal abwickeln, geht schnell und ist sofort da. Falls sich nix tut - Ticket an den Support

Yep, huge influx of DDs across all Tiers (especially mid-Tiers, I had several games with 5-6 DDs on each side, too) - I guess the CV nerf did its part, I'm glad to see more of these thingies on the seas! But mostly I see pretty balanced fights with 4 BBs, CAs and DDs each - glad that WoBBs is over, at least most of the time.

The troll always gets you ;)

Right, my bad ;)