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The key to winning against an Udaloi (and any high tier RU DD really) in a Fletcher is to pick your engagements wisely. You have far superior concealment, so you can pick the terms of the fight. So yes, while an Udaloi will beat a Fletcher in a straight up gun fight, don't feel afraid to engage if you have the advantage. If all else fails you can just keep him spotted for your teammates and gun him down once he lost most of his HP.

Seriously, just stop. You have proven that you don't understand the concept of balance over on your Midway thread and you're doing it here again.

This concerns auto drop. Torp bombers auto drop torps from hilariously far away anyway. You have what feels like an eternity to react. That change is not going to do anything. Players who can WASD will still dodge, players who can't will still get hit. So unless you have problems avoiding auto drops you shouldn't worry too much.

2 vs 2 CVs? Enemy Ryujo plays AS? Friendly Indie gets sniped early? Perfect, more plane kills for me then.

If you enjoy Belfast I don't see how you will not enjoy RN CLs. Apparently the low tier ones are quite bad (I skipped straight to Leander thanks to the Xmas Convoy missions so I have no experience), but Leander on T6 is very solid and Fiji has been a blast so far. Just remember to spam the superstructure on BBs as if you would fire HE. Upper belt shots can be taken at closer ranges for massive damage returns.

If WG is planning on a big competitive scene it should most definitely balanced around it. If not, it should be balanced for ranked play. If the game is balanced for ranked play balance in randoms will follow accordingly, as you'd just need to l2p.

Meh, I just eyeball it. Never even thought of using the reticle this way. Or maybe I'm unconsciously using the Force.

If people are unable to hold even just a loose formation for an extended period of time then it's their own fault. If you see torps early it is very easy to avoid them, it will not increase the distance between ships enough to give the CV an opportunity for an easy strike (as the perfect dodging route is usually the same for every ship in said formation). This is an issue that lies solely with the playerbase, not with how CVs are used or designed. For some, yes, for others not so much. There are however several ways to not make yourself a juicy target regardless of what cruiser you're playing. Having a BB or two pushing in front of you will already alleviate most of the potential fire you're gonna take, after that it's just a matter of using cover, concealment and angling to mitigate damage. Especially on high tiers your AA goes far beyond just 4-5km, eliminating the need to hug your teammates. If a CV approaches with his planes all you need to do is pop Def AA and ruin his day (and, in some cruisers, not even that). Ofc if the enemy is actually intelligent and decides to focus you down there is nothing much you can do. It makes perfect sense if you understand how concealment works. A BB or even a cruiser behind you will be spotted long before you do, even if you're several km in front of them. That is ofc assuming you're not horribly overextending and have shut your AA guns off (as you should). Assume the following scenario. You're in a full concealment build Fletcher, giving you an air detectability of 3.3km. You're ~6km in front of your team scouting for them, one of which is a full stealth Iowa, possessing an air detectability of 11.5km. So even if you're far in front of a teammate that captains one of the most stealthy BBs in the game, he's still gonna get spotted by approaching planes long before you. What I meant by that is that teamplay should be instinctual, not necessarily relying on much coordination on everyone's part. Everyone should know to stick together if there's a CV in the game even without communication. Likewise DDs should lay down smoke for their teammates without anyone specifically asking for it, BBs should focus on radar cruisers without DDs spamming F3 on them, etc. Even such simple displays of teamplay however are a rarity in WoWs nowadays. Not only have I pulled this off, I have observed it several times. And it was extremely effective every time. Just recently I had a game in which the enemy did not even need to stick close together because a single, well positioned DM behind an island completely secured their air space. As a CV, there was nothing I could do but pick off the one foolish DD that attempted to sneak a cap on the other side of the map and protect my own team from enemy air strikes as best as I could. And despite shutting down the enemy CV, I was literally unable to damage the core enemy fleet because a single ship knew how to do his job (the one time I tried resulted in the loss of every single bomber). There is no other ship class in the game that can get shut down so hard so easily. No, CVs suppress the playstyle imposed on them by the Meta, which in turn was formed primarily by solo playing scrubs. Obviously people will then believe that it's not fun to play this way because they have watered gameplay down already and thus are unwilling to commit to a higher standard of play. Scrubs are just too used and comfortable with their style of play even if it goes against the game's design. Again, no ship in this game was designed to go off on their own, no matter the circumstances. I'm more than willing to admit that the skill gap is horrendously big between the average and skilled player. It shows how horribly WG has neglected teaching new players basic game mechanics. However, it' still holds true that CVs have great influence on a match because it is given to them by everyone else. CVs exploit mistakes which the majority of players are more than happy to make. If the average player skill was just a bit higher this wouldn't be nearly as big of an issue as it is now. I have not accused you of being a scrub, but your arguments are largely in line of those scrubs love to use. It's nothing we haven't heard or refuted before.

You never fail to put a smile on my face with your utter ignorance.

Ahh, nevermind then.

Off topic: They are? That's news to me tbh, but I'm actually inclined to believe it since I can't find a (recent) screenshot with 6 or more BBs per side, but I don't remember reading about it in any patch notes.

No, definitely not, but a group of capital ships should be able to sufficiently blunt an air strike. That is currently not the case at least in my experience.

Concealment Expert. It is the one skill you must take, especially in an Iowa/Missouri. Everything else you can choose according to your preferences, be that survivability, AA or a mix of both.

Or you could change course every ~30 seconds. Or ask your CV to scout. Or your DDs. Or have someone activate Hydro. There are plenty of ways to counter torps. Because obviously being a few km out of your comfort zone is suddenly being out of position completely. This doesn't even take smoke nor island cover into account. Being in front of some teammates you're scouting for guarantees that you will not be the first one spotted. And I seem to find plenty of success with it. True, but the majority of players don't even consider sticking together to negate air strikes a possibility. It has little to do with language and more with common sense. And WG has done absolutely nothing to facilitate average player skill ever since the game was released. It should be taught in the most basic of tutorials, yet currently the tutorial doesn't even tell you that you can switch between shell types. Very much true. The average CV captain is no better than the average BB captain in terms of skill. They don't spot because they don't even consider spotting a possibility. And who can fault them? They were never taught that they could do so. Inter class balance is an issue that apparently is being worked on. No sane CV captain will deny that there are problems with how USN and IJN CVs are balanced. And they are until T10. There are differences, but their playstyle is fairly similar. Flanking (or exposing yourself in any way, really) either detracts from your dpm time and is thus too much of a hassle or will simply mean a quick return to the port in my experience. After all, the damage output remains the same in any position unless you're suicidally close and want to use AP, at which point escaping is not an option anymore. I'm a solo player actually. The vast majority of my games were played alone (4680 out of 6694 according to warships.today) and for some reason my stats seem to actually increase if only solo games are taken into account. Don't ask me how that works. A consequence of BB overpopulation. Again, CVs only benefit, not cause. You have discovered how to counter CVs. Congratulations! Now, let's get down to the meat of the matter. Is it fun to play this way? (This is gonna be very lengthy, so be prepared)

Would be fine if all classes were properly represented in the game. Sadly, they are not. However, by adding and removing various mechanics due to the lack thereof also means you're wreaking hell upon balance once you find a match that actually has all classes in the game.

I did say auto drop, not auto attack. Sorry I did not make this clear. Indeed it would not, but it will at least force people to learn how to play the class properly. Here's how I would go about "fixing" seal clubbing: Reduce T4 & 5 plane health by a fair margin Currently plane HP at those tiers is far too high. Even if you huddle together with teammates it is impossible to deny air strikes barring any divine blessings from RNGesus (or the odd Yubari with Def AA). Reduce T4 & 5 air-dropped torp damage In addition to that, the torpedoes are devastatingly powerful. That means even if you're lucky enough to shoot down 1-2 planes, that's not gonna matter too much, you're still gonna take crippling damage. Now, that's not exactly going to fix seal clubbing either, but it will at least balance low tier CVs out and make clear counters available. After all, WG views seal clubbing in low tier CVs as a problem because they're incredibly (read: too) powerful, so just make them less powerful and it's all fine. Any more is going to be hypocrisy considering nothing is done to prevent seal clubbing with other classes. Heck, they even encourage it with powerful low tier premiums.

So a DD torps a group of ships, forcing them to scatter, possibly giving the team's CV a good target. Simple, yet effective teamplay, no? See, here's where you are wrong. A DD can still spot ahead and make it back into friendly AA cover in time if planes do show up. So either will have to move ~2km out of their comfort zones to support each other (assuming Donskoi took AFT as he should). Big deal. Certain ships can completely deny air space around them, even being near the edge of their AA means you will be safe. 1. Good (non-US) CV players will already do it. However CVs have limits, fighters have both flight times and ammo. It is impossible to cover people 24/7. This is where simple teamplay comes in. 2. While easy, it is not commonplace nowadays, far from it in fact. That however is not caused by CVs, they simply benefit from it. So it is your job as an individual to support your teammates as much as possible and, if given the chance, teach them the value of teamplay. Since when? IJN cruisers are long range HE spammers, often playing from the back row anyway. Playing aggressively usually results in getting a quick ticket back to port. Aside from Zao not one of them is tanky enough to sustain much damage. I bet you have not yet seen what even some DDs can do with a full AA build. Which forces them to play together (or at least it should). If you want to be able to go solo and exploit the "best/most fun" aspects of ships at the expense of your teammates, then that's your opinion and no one can tell you otherwise. That is not how the game was designed, however, and makes the difference between good and great players.

Easy fix: Remove auto drop. That'll force everyone to git gud eventually. (Auto drop, not auto attack with fighters) Now, I believe seal-clubbing with low tier CVs is indeed a problem due to the lack of counter play (thus making it a balance issue more than anything). The AA at those tiers simply isn't strong enough to defend against air strikes regardless of whether or not you're sailing with your team. Removing alt attacks certainly is not the solution, though.

The most simplest of teamplay. Stick together with your teammates and a CV can't do anything but MAYBE keep you detected. Remember, if a CV can strike you without much trouble on his part, YOU'RE doing something wrong, not the CV. USN cruisers literally have among the worst AA capabilities at those tiers. This however is not the fault of CVs (their planes get chewed up by a lot of things at those tiers, US cruisers are certainly not among them tho), but WGs failure to properly plan the US cruiser line. Cleveland surpasses Pensa and NO in both self defense and AA escort roles. It won't get better until Baltimore.

quoted post removed Such argument Very constructive Much wow Another whiny BBaby, who would've thought?

Actually, current stats are inflated by the numbers before the economy rework. When filtered to a more recent time span CVs certainly don't occupy the top spots when it comes to average XP at least on my end. Remember, stats are meaningless if you don't put some thought into them.

Because people allow them to do so. CVs are also the only class that can be made incapable of dealing damage (barring T4 & 5). Again someone spouting stats without giving the slightest thought to them. The economy may not be a problem now with all the scrubs running around, but if WG ever decides to address that, it's gonna become a glaringly big issue. Better to address a problem in it's infant state rather than when the [edited]-storm is already upon you. If a CV has expended great effort in protecting his teammates, scouting and eliminating key threats, and does so successfully, no one should have a problem with him being rewarded the same amount of income as if he had a great game with any other class. Yet at the moment that is most certainly not the case. On the same note, if he does barely anything at all he should also lose the same amount of money has if he had done the same with other classes (although really, that CVs tend to lose less money seems incredibly rubbish to me since the maintenance costs are equal to other ships on their respective tiers and losing a lot of planes is equally as expensive as expending a lot of ammunition).

Both actually, tho I really had not much to do on the support end since my opponents in those particular games chose to play AS.