El2aZeR

Number of guns is irrelevant because AA is no longer calculated from individual gun DPS but simply given a value for long, mid and close range respectively. And no, E would not be immune from air attack because the first attack always goes through regardless of whether you're attacking a full AA CV, a full AA Mino or even a full AA Jean Bart. Have you really learned nothing about the fundamental game mechanics you've been using or facing so far?

Oh, so because of that I can't point out where your reasoning is flawed? And have you ever considered that aircraft having no meaningful counterplay is perhaps the bigger issue? Why would I ever care that the CV hull survives if I have reliable means of completely denying both his spotting and damage dealing capabilities via killing his aircraft (you know, like it existed in the RTS iteration)? Also how exactly would you solve your supposed core issue in a way that actually makes sense? Again the only way I see is to remove the hull of the CV entirely, make aircraft fly in from the map border and let plane reserves serve as a substitute HP bar. Do you believe that this is going to make the situation any better when there still isn't a reliable way to prevent a CV from spotting and/or attacking you?

Says the dude playing Lexington lol - more AA - more armor - more HP

Pretty much. There are very few ships you cannot teach about memes when you're top tier. Have you ever heard about our lord and savior "accelerated bailout exploit"? DBs actually were made equal with Lexington ones in terms of, well, everything but payload because according to WG Enterprise needed buffs when she was already the 2nd best CV in the game ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. As a result they've become more tanky, but you also can't be as wasteful with them as before. TBs still reload way faster than on any other high tier CV, giving her a respectable 38 per game max with both AS and FCM1. This is 2 attack wings more than you get with Lexington which can make quite the difference. Doesn't mean you can just throw them away one after another but with a bit of reserve management and squad shortening even T10 matches shouldn't pose too big of a problem. I've rarely, if ever found myself strapped for TBs in E.

Certainly not when it is over 2 years old. I mean come on, the rework didn't even exist back then. There is a pinned thread about the CV rework here: I expect mods to close this topic soon™.

Good thing she has the fastest plane regen out of all high tier CVs, eh? Seriously though, plane losses practically never bother me in E. Especially not when it comes to rocket planes as they respawn in a topkek 44 seconds.

*inb4 range mod and spotter plane*

Honestly I question whether the CV rework has had or will ever have an impact on cash spent at all. It certainly doesn't seem like it so far and we're into month 3 already. Besides, according to WG the CV rework was a project that took them well over a year, meaning tons of time, manpower and, more importantly, money has flown into it. Game development is far from cheap especially on this scale, I'd be extremely surprised if this sale doesn't leave the rework deep in the red. It quite frankly doesn't make sense even from a pure business perspective. Then again WG is a company with massive financial assets, so they may not care either way. As for the smoke change, you'd have a point with Kutuzov, but Belfast? I don't think any Belfast player will say that the smoke nerf impacted them or RN CLs in general (aside from Neptune) which are still the primary offenders of firing from smoke very much. If anything the smoke nerf primarily targeted BBs, but then they probably realized that they can't do something that only targets the glorious BB master race and hit most cruisers with it as well. Yeah, I'm pretty sure Kaga came after strafing out was introduced.

Rule number 3 in the WG book of game design: When no gimmicks are left, gimmicks shall be made. I expect we'll see air radar within the next year. And since T10 premiums are now a thing I'd reckon we're gonna see quite a few more premium CVs actually. All tiers have a ton of potential candidates. "Don't worry, it's only the first test. They're gonna start fixing stuff from here!" "Eh, still test 3. No way it's gonna go on PTS like this." "This is only the first PTS out of many. There is no need to pretend the world is going down." "They're gonna make drastic changes from PTS to live, mark my words!" "This is only the first iteration on live. WG will balance the rework soon!" Yeah, you're still holding on to that? You should give up like the rest of us. It becomes... easier when you do. Also remember that global changes can actually make premiums stronger? *cough* Saipan strafing out gimmick *cough*

Except they both only get one, at most two attacks. And will only get that many attacks regardless of how much AA you take. Because AA does not disperse over multiple squads. It applies the same damage to each individual squad. Aka if your AA deals 500 DPS, squad one will take 500 DPS and squad two will also take 500 DPS. Taking AA skills doesn't suddenly evaporate one of them. Unless ofc one of them is too stupid to dodge flak, which means he will die before reaching you regardless of AA skills because base flak damage + base DPS is enough to shred any incoming squad. So how about providing a replay?

Fighter aggression is time, not distance based. If you can leave the circle fast enough fighters won't aggro, which given GZ plane speed should be pretty easy.

Which is irrelevant as the amount of attacks you take is in the same in the end.

Yup. Figured he would be sneaking along the map border in an attempt to get to me. Which judging by his position when I spotted him and his actions later in the match he probably was. Firing then abandoning is a much faster process than waiting for them to go on cd then abandoning. If you know you can't make another attack with a squad, don't.

I made sure he doesn't.

And there is nothing positive you can draw out of that? That you have successfully made the enemy waste a salvo that could have otherwise been used to better effect for example? Really nothing at all? What you are saying would be true if the enemy doesn't incur any negative penalties. In most scenarios in this game he does. Depending on the class, weapon type, etc. that penalty is either negligible or a pretty big deal. A DD firing HE at you from smoke won't particularly care that your armor just shattered his previous salvo for no damage since he probably has another one already in the air. A BB might care a lot more that you just dodged all his shells since he needs far longer for another attempt at you. This is where balance comes into play. Depending on the potential power of a weapon a failed attack must inevitably incur a smaller or larger penalty. This is where the CV rework fails because the penalties for a failed attack aren't NEARLY big enough to offset its potential power. You know, I was partially joking about removing the CV hull from the match previously but wouldn't that actually satisfy your criteria? I mean, if you remove the hull and let him fly in from the map border then plane reserves both figuratively and literally becomes the HP of the CV.

Well, I can actually demonstrate that a CV does die pretty fast to (competent) air attack if that helps: The issue is that in any practical early/mid game scenario you can't bring this kind of DPM to bare as you need to fly across the entire map while avoiding enemy concentrations of AA, dragging out kill time. Add to that the hilarious survivability buff WG gave CVs by cutting down DoT damage (because according to WG we are too stupid to be given hull control) and you get an extremely undesirable target solely because it takes far too long to kill it. If a CV willingly makes himself a target by moving just as or closer than his teammates then all hands are off. Which basically never happens because (usually) even potatoes know not to charge directly into enemy lines with their CV. I've seen that happen once so far, he promptly regretted it. Take from that what you will. Personally I think in the current iteration it'd actually be better to just remove the hull from the match and let planes fly in from the map border. Which is either sad or hilarious depending on who you ask. Or both. Because as we all know AA gets less efficient when faced with multiple squads just like back in the RTS iteration! Oh wait...

And you have ofc never considered for a moment that what you're seeing is in fact entirely made up? You're basically telling me right now that the way you interpret it to be is right and the way I do is wrong which is the height of subjectivity. But since you still want to beat around the issue, let me end this by asking you directly. Is the action of angling, not the action of fighting back, a counterplay option to AP shells or not?

Oh, guess what, I had that happen several times at this point as well. And I'm not AA spec. I deplaned both enemy CVs and survived every single time. So yeah, your AA skills did nothing for your survival. CV base AA will easily do the job as well. Congrats on proving what a gigantic waste taking AA skills on a CV is. Also implying that you actually need to cross drop a CV, one of the biggest and the most sluggish class by far, is hilarious.

That's a rather grand thing to say when saying that defensive action cannot be counterplay. Just because I don't like CVs in their current form doesn't mean I can't point out how objectively flawed your argument is. I neither want nor need to join the hate train some people here are on. We are not talking about fighting back, we are talking about whether a defensive play can be counterplay. So is angling a counterplay to AP shells or not? I'd say yes. If done well (and unless overmatch comes into play but that's a different thing entirely) you can mitigate your enemies' damage potential down to zero. And this is the actual deal with the current iteration of CVs. Unless you stack AA to ludicrous amounts it is impossible to deny them their first attack. They can even mitigate the inevitable losses by just shortening their squads. As such your counterplay option is either hugely impractical or straight up doesn't really work. And it is necessary for it to be so due to the fundamental concept of CVs, hence why CVs as they are right now are impossible to balance. Here, I've made your argument non-biased. You can thank me later. I don't see how it doesn't apply to what I am saying tbh. Though I guess it depends on what you consider a positive or opposing action, doesn't it? Since in a broad sense technically speaking just taking the first attack and denying the second one via AA along with impacting the reserves a tiny bit in the current CV rework could already be considered positive or opposing the enemy CV even if it is moot since the CV will just come back in 30 seconds. But lets not get caught up in that, shall we?

Not that I particularly disagree that CVs currently are hilarious (in a bad way) but really, what kind of reasoning is this? You may as well say "angling is not counterplay, it merely defends against AP shells". Counterplay options do not necessarily have to be offensive in nature you know?

Thing is because Audacious has abysmal reserves and plane respawn times you want as many TBs to survive as possible as these are your main damage dealers. Afaik heal doesn't last on planes that break off or get abandoned, so it is up to their current health pool alone to survive once that happens. I found the DBs to be a lot more situational anyway unlike the TBs. And if I may share a little secret, while bombs are falling (and a little bit after) your DBs are completely immune to damage. This combined with their speed and quick attack setup actually means they're already extremely tanky, so the extra health is likely wasted.

Reviving this thread because of topkek match I just had. Sure seems like it.

Which you wouldn't need if you were smart enough to pay attention to the flow of battle as well as the info the game freely gives you. I guess you're not though. Fair enough.