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That just means it's a personal issue and you just need to get as good as me, no? To expect the game to conform to you instead is extremely laughable. Besides, proving how powerful Saipan currently is wasn't the point. The point is comparing striking performance between reworked and RTS CVs, in this case the Saipan. Honestly I don't see the point? If you take a target type that can be oneshot by both CV iterations and the only variance you allow is range to target, then reworked CVs will come out on top due to faster speed. There is no need at all to do a test because it comes down to a single fixed number which can simply be compared between the two iterations.

Wat. No, I meant in regards to reworked CVs which were always overperforming no matter the nerf. No they are not. Even a simple comparison of the top 100 list between RTS and rework easily proves that.

I fail to see how minimap only spotting is going to solve anything when you consider the actual issue is CVs can just kill everything by themselves. But then again that would imply WG knows how reworked CVs play.

Funny, considering pretty much all balance adjustments have been made according to the more skilled playerbase so far. And there is the fundamental flaw in your argument. The playerbase that played RTS CVs is NOT the same playerbase that plays reworked CVs.

Man, thank god the CN client still exists so you can't make up blatant lies like that. As outlined in the previous thread, reworked CVs hold every advantage imaginable when it comes to actual battle conditions. This naturally includes AA strength. Reworked AA is laughably more weak than RTS AA ever was even on low tiers. Likewise you have over twice the strike reserves in a reworked Saipan than an RTS one. Thus if you fail in reworked Saipan, you would've definitely failed in RTS Saipan. To complain about a lack of actual battle conditions is therefore a moot point as it will only further the advantage reworked CVs already hold in the shown controlled environment. Oh, well, better luck next time. While Saipan strafing mechanics were definitely broken, a well played Hiryu could in fact contest it. I can do that solo now with Enterprise. That's not disgusting? Careful, your laughable double standards are showing here. This again? Didn't you already try this with Shokaku? Funny how you don't mention that anymore. Kek. And no, I did not just play that. How about you take your lies somewhere where people will appreciate them? The general public is irrelevant because the general public is incompetent.

That was because good CV players knew when to commit planes and when to abstain from striking. This meant that if you established a no-fly-zone and the enemy CV avoided you like the plague, that's a job well done on your part even if you get nothing for it. Something that should have been addressed but lol WG rewarding teamplay I must go straight to gulag. Now it's entirely different. CVs are impossible to deplane because AA is too weak to do so.

Sounds like you need to spend some time in SOLITARY. (I ing love that game.) Ace Combat 7. If you ever want to play an actually GOOD arcade aircraft game.

Your strategy doesn't seem to be working. Blob of entire team + CVs got demolished regardless.

Yeah, it simply would not be fun. How would you feel like if you had to fly in circles for 5 minutes straight just to keep spotting up? Or manually fly a strike into position only to see that the enemy CV is blocking you via manually controlled fighters so you have no choice but to retreat? You see, the single squad manual control concept in itself prevents any kind of active spotting or fighter play because that'd make CV play boring and pointless.

Well yes, but that would outright kill the rework. As does anything that checks the ludicrous potential of reworked CVs, really. Because all the claims you've made doesn't let the average CV player have any relevance. E.g. claiming that CVs are not broken nor overpowered automatically excludes the average CV player from the discussion as the maximum potential of the class is relevant, not average numbers. Besides, it doesn't matter what stats you have or how skilled you are at surface ship play. A CV will still demolish you because there is no effective counterplay making the point moot regardless. Nice try tho. One can really see your blatant dishonesty shine through once again.

You do realize CVs are the best sub killers by far in the current implementation?

I swear this playerbase gets more and more incompetent by the day.

Ah yes, that too. Forgot about that.

As far as I remember this is actually a historical aspect. Soviet designers tended to favor guns with higher muzzle velocity and thus lower shell arcs at the cost of barrel life, something they got from the Italians. Don't take my word for it tho, I'm not too well versed in the subject.

How so? A class that has every advantage imaginable AND no counterplay is inherently broken, hence why counterplay is needed because attacking any of these advantages would make the class highly awkward to play. Also even WG graphs show that CVs are still clearly dominant. A simple game design decision based on other unavoidable methods of attack in this game, of which CVs still remain by far the most reliable so their damage should be even lower than those. Average stats hold no value here. - weird, I see bad CV players getting shut down by flak all the time. In fact I read about it all the time as well - can still be done extremely easily and now the enemy CV can't even do anything to shut it down - you could win with an AFK CV before even against a triple AA-CV unicum div. Regardless actual stats easily prove you wrong, a skilled CV player is just as dominant as they were before at least - your subjective opinion doesn't matter - subjective and given the reality of the situation completely untrue So if someone achieves the same results as he does pre rework that somehow means CVs have less potential than before? Really? Judging potential is not done by looking at average stats. And btw it's also irrelevant to the topic, I was asking about the skill gap for which the amount of skilled players is irrelevant. What is relevant is that they exist. And they very much do. A simple comparison between the ends of the leaderboard on RTS and reworked CVs in wows-numbers easily tells everything one needs to know. E.g. In years of RTS Midway play no one has managed to go below 27k average damage. In the rework meanwhile we have half a page filled with such, a couple of which are even in single digits. How the numbers look to you is irrelevant. And I just explained how it does it. That's an extremely simplistic and even outright wrong view of WW2 carrier operations especially in the context of how encounters in this game play out. No, because you're not playing a carrier. There is no follow up strike launch, no combined strike, no need to recover the planes, no fighter cover, etc. It's the complete opposite of everything carrier operation is supposed to be. What you're playing is an insert coin plane dispenser. Not a carrier. Objectively speaking it is the furthest thing away from immersion. That you're closer to the action actually hurts immersion because you're being shown up close just how wrong everything is. So basically "it is not okay for a CV to rely on teamplay, but others must rely on teamplay against the CV". Really? What kind of utterly stupid double standard is this that you're blabbering about here? Why not just outright admit that you're in fact the one that wants to keep his op toy, something former RTS players are often accused of?

Except no, it really hasn't. Fighter mechanics which would have shut down a bad CV player when faced with a better one have been replaced by flak mechanics. As such the end result remains the same or is perhaps even worse than before. E.g. whereas previously a bad CV player needed to meet a CV player of much superior skill, something that wasn't exactly common back then either, to get completely locked out of the game, now a bad CV player is guaranteed to get locked out of the game due to flak. Therefore the end result has either remained the same or outright worsened. Bad CV players are arguably even more useless than before while skilled CV players continue to dominate. The inherent issue hasn't been addressed at all. Another thing is that fighter engagements in the RTS iteration could be dictated by surface ships, adding another level of teamplay which is completely missing from the rework. There are plenty of times when I was able to support a massively less skilled CV player in shutting down a much superior one in an AA ship. This is no longer possible in any shape, way or form. I agree that fighter mechanics weren't exactly stellar but they weren't beyond saving either.

Precisely. Given that CVs already excel in almost every other category, something is needed to balance out their huge potential. If you're unwilling to deal with no-fly-zones, we could also nerf alpha strike to be proportional to the level of counterplay. In this case it would mean cutting alpha by, say, at least 60% and lessening or outright removing DoT. You see, it is in fact not always bad to have some things without counterplay. This does in fact exist, although such examples have not been named. E.g. just because you're shooting at someone in this game doesn't mean he can't continue to move (unless I suppose the engine gets disabled but that's a different thing entirely). As such movement technically speaking has no counterplay, you can only ensure that your movement is better than the player opposing you, but you can't outright prevent it. What matters is that the potential power is correctly balanced out by counterplay. Reworked CVs already put other classes to shame in terms of capabilities while remaining completely independent. Nothing is done to check their huge potential. That is what makes them broken. And because this is tied to their fundamental concept it cannot be solved without breaking it. If reworked CVs were to incur heavy penalties otherwise, say in survivability or map presence etc. then it could be acceptable to leave their damage potential without counterplay. This is however simply not possible. Then what has the rework objectively fixed so that the end result has improved? And I see you ignored making a conclusion about the skill gap issue despite everything I stated being openly available facts. True, realism is the wrong word to use. Immersiveness is achieved by making logical sense. Is it immersive to make you play a character born into a medieval fantasy world only for it to hand you a modern machine gun as a starter weapon for example? Ofc not. The RTS iteration made sense as in you were actually commanding a carrier. The rework makes no sense on any level. To claim that the rework is more immersive is therefore objectively wrong. What you may claim is that it is more fun to look at or sth similar, but that is completely subjective.

This is what you continue to claim, yet I haven't seen anyone say that the RTS iteration was perfect and that's why we should go back to it nor imply it. In fact all people like you have done is to use this as an excuse to dismiss any kind of arguments against the rework by saying we all just want the RTS iteration back. Which is quite telling really. So it is true then that the rework fixed nothing? Nice of you to finally admit it. - top player performance remains the same - average stats are down - reworked CVs can't even find enough skilled players to fill a top 100 list - worst of the worst perform way worse than before To what conclusion does that lead you to if I may ask in regards to the skill gap? True. Another part where the rework is utterly nonsensical. Since when do CVs fly out only single squads instead of combined strikes? Since when do squads attack only a few planes at a time? Since when do fighters ignore strike planes until after they've dropped their ordinance? Since when does flak always shoot to miss? To name a few things. Objectively speaking the rework is completely immersion breaking when compared to reality. Quite a few actually. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to name them here tho as that would be naming and shaming.

And I will in fact blame this on the lower general average skill of CVs. Personally I've felt much worse. I can't use the glorious 8.6km AA of allies anymore, long range AA in general is ineffective in contrast to the RTS iteration so even if it had the range it wouldn't do much, DD AA has been nerfed into oblivion (e.g. Grozo AA is now roughly equivalent to T5-6 AA) so I can't rely on that either. This means I have to stick much closer to teammates if I want to have a chance against air strikes, at which point I ask myself why I play DDs in the first place. And because planes now have the SA skill they always know if you're in the general vicinity, so using stealth to go anywhere isn't an option either. So when caught out I can do nothing but waste a smoke, afterwards I still die anyway. If not caught out I'm useless and will in fact die anyway eventually. There is no point in playing DDs with the CV rework in my eyes while RTS CVs at least gave me some options to perform my tasks, although I will be the first one to admit this wasn't optimal either. Guess what, overlapping AA didn't do too much either if you knew what you're doing. Oh, look, this is from 0.8.5: The amount of dishonesty you're putting on display here could rival someone else known for such. This implies that the progression of HP and AA is actually flatter now and hasn't just been one gigantic buff to CVs or nerf to AA. I mean I suppose the T10s got nerfed, that's fine. But in the face of the AA changes, which did NOT flatten out AA progression but outright murdered AA with extremely few ships getting marginally better AA as a result this might as well be seen as an overall buff. Ships with terrible AA still have terrible AA, ships with good AA now have terrible AA. I fail to see what the AA progression is supposed to be here. Except CVs already excel in so many categories that it is ludicrous to demand them to be able to deal damage in every situation as well as outlined above. Your spotting already cannot be countered, now you want to deal damage with impunity as well? And none of these aspects can be touched without breaking the rework, thus making it inherently broken. There is exactly one thing CVs do bad in. That's capping. Even that however can be argued with as CVs can actually be quite decent cap contesters - by murdering everything in its vicinity.

Clearly doesn't work, so it actually isn't a counter. Yes, definitions which you have defined by yourself for yourself. As such they're subjective and thus, ironically according to yourself as well, irrelevant. In the case of CVs it is in fact only a reduction of the negative consequences. Against any other class it puts you into an advantageous position. No you don't. All of the other mechanics you have mentioned have clear, defined and effective counters. CVs do not. Otherwise go ahead and prove it instead of making up general statements which are clearly untrue.

How so? Genuinely curious btw. It only took me a single match against a competent reworked CV to never play DDs again while I never had the same issue against even the best RTS CV players.

Neither can Vladi. Jesus Christ...

Something that could equally apply to RTS CVs when you look at how playernumbers plummeted over years. The rework has managed that in just a few months. Also did you know that reworked CV numbers are actually artificially inflated? New player codes include a free T4 one after all. You could call it marketing measures I suppose, but there was absolutely no reason to not just try to do the same with RTS ones. So either way the rework is not inherently more popular than RTS CVs. Also I still don't see the population soaring after 0.8.7 which made reworked CVs ridiculously overpowered again. No it didn't. 0.8.5 didn't have anywhere close to no-fly-zones. DPS (which btw didn't change at all) would've had to at least double for that to happen. To even perpetuate such a notion is a blatant lie. Skilled CV players still did extremely well in 0.8.5 and 0.8.6 with only some minor decreases in performance, aka the potential of reworked CVs in 0.8.5 only changed slightly downwards. And that no-fly-zones cannot exist in the rework just speaks to how blatantly broken the inherent concept of reworked CVs is as outlined above. 0.8.7 contained nothing even remotely decent. We're almost as far away from balance as 0.8.0 was.