El2aZeR

Watch the beginning. So much for "subs counter CVs" lol.

Well, 0.8.7 is only one, soon to be 2 patches ago. Nah fam, our glorious hax package enables us to disguise a CV as a surface ship. You gonna have a nasty surprise waiting for you. (On a more serious note, I don't think I'm planned in to play in this KotS in general. Since, you know, no CVs and all + I'm a bit rusty in surface ships.)

And what does that matter? The rework literally has mechanics designed to shut down the average player, so it is pretty safe to say the average player isn't relevant.

Mikhail Kutuzov.

But what do you do when your entire AA blob gets killed by the CV?

Not even that difficult tbh. Of course, as it inherently implies that the enemy misplayed since there are plenty of counterplay options against DDs. There is nothing you can do against an actually skilled CV player. The only thing that is keeping DD play alive atm is the extremely laughable average skill of CV players. Also if you don't leave your friendlies then the enemy CV already won a rather extreme advantage for his team unless ofc your CV is equally oppressive. At that point there is no need to play a DD at all.

1. Yeah, right. Total DPS Montana: ~772 Total DPS Worcester: ~635 The 152mm DP guns actually deal far less damage than the 127mm guns on the Monty and DFAA can be cheesed. 2. Yes I do. PS is indicated by red tracers. A lot of people actually use it, it's just mostly worthless. Or perhaps you're not as good as you think? Cleve AA isn't even anything special.

*citation needed* Separating opinions from actual facts seems rather difficult indeed. Again, I'm sure you can back that up instead of making general statements?

Most RFs need a distance of 3km to attack without the use of boost. TiTs can go as low as 2km. A lot of DDs can actually be attacked on the first approach.

Funny, I just did that just yesterday to a Montana in my Saipan, something that has far better AA than any cruiser.

Saipan is hilarious. Thank you @RAYvenMP for making me discover this gem. And while we're at it: Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.

I don't? That'd be news to me. Ah. It's a simple choice of playstyle. A clanmate of mine does exactly that by having a different target focus. Would that be all?

Except I will. It's called heal. First of all, you changed the conditions again. Now you're talking about AA cruisers specifically. This implies there is no other kind of cruiser in the game. E.g. instead of a Cleve I could've also taken a Chapayev as the target for Lexington torps. Or better yet, Hipper vs Saipan TBs. Still, there is really no need. Since your initial claim is so broad a single match in a Hosho/Langley will easily disprove it considering the health pool of T4 cruisers. This would also imply that a 1vs1 in the training room would yield a representative result even if it were to go in your favor since it doesn't represent a real battle scenario where you have to worry about everything else in addition. And a lot of cruisers are most effectively played in a way that makes them fairly easy targets for CVs, not to mention there are times when just having half your health shaved off can be preferable to, say, showing broadside to half the enemy team. For someone harping about actual battle conditions that seems rather hypocritical of you, no?

In reality you also get more than one attack guaranteed, so given that we're talking about single strike damage in itself implies a more theoretical scenario in my mind. USN has a very short arming distance, RN CVs get a converging drop. Both get favorable aiming mechanics and can also still cross drop. A well placed strike from either is impossible to dodge. If not on the first run, then on the second. Taking TA solves the torpedo speed issue.

And yet saying that it is impossible would be a lie. Also I have yet to see the difficulty in landing 3 torps on a Cleve.

Let me requote your claim: Huh, that sounds a lot different to what you're preaching now? Also your fixation on the HE bombs in particular is kinda funny. I suppose next you're gonna tell me you've never landed all your torps on a Cleve? Really? Maneuvering nor AA particularly matters considering against the former you can adjust without penalty while the latter matters not in the first place.

It is much easier to land all your ordinance in a CV than a Shima can hit all of her torps. I could've also taken the torps at e.g. 20.5k damage against Worcester 19% TDS which is pretty easy to get given your ability to cross drop in USN TBs. And while Midway TBs are a bit of a hassle to use, it's by no means impossible. It's also nice of you to dismiss everything in which you've been proven wrong.

1. What I meant is it took a RTS CV the same time to take off, oneshot a cruiser then go back and service as a reworked CV takes to kill a cruiser in consecutive strikes. At least. In fact reworked CVs have the potential to do it faster. Should've probably worded that better tho. 2. I sure wonder what those counterplay options are? Accuracy is actually better than before or the same depending on auto or manual drop, so RNG is either better or the same. The most recent buff to Sight Stabilization largely eliminates the movement penalty so picking the optimal approach angle is laughably easy with nothing the surface ship can do. You also seem to forget that a lot of targets that were not vulnerable to AP bombs now are due to the increased penetration and more sensitive fuses. To put this into perspective Shokaku now has about 80mm higher pen that RTS USN AP bombs used to have or ~20mm higher than RTS GZ. E.g. Hindenburg was largely immune against RTS AP DB citadels yet now eats them like no tomorrow. That hardly sounds like AP bombs are weaker now. 3. The only thing that is a blatant lie here is you saying that a DM was dead-meat. Tell me, if a lone Musashi can down half a Saipan strike on approach, what do you think a DM with DFAA and a small amount of AA skills can do? Or alternatively you can watch this: Fletcher even with DFAA had less AA than DM did. Interestingly enough I don't see those fighters surviving for very long and fighters were the beefiest plane type in the RTS iteration. So I'm sorry, but what was that about blatant lies again? That would imply all classes are equal, yet CVs are clearly not. Besides, other ships can e.g. dodge shells and torpedoes, as such become immune to them. Aka they have viable counterplay options to avoid all damage. Why are CVs different in this regard? Lets check that claim: Midway HE bomb damage potential is 22.1k. This is roughly half the health of a Worcester or Mino. Lexington TB damage potential against a Cleveland is about 18.6k with standard 4% TDS, almost 2/3rds of her HP. Need I go on? Says the guy spouting nonsense and lies.

They actually got buffed pretty hard, but in ways that doesn't allow the average potato to go ezmode unicum. So most potatoes still won't play. Objectively speaking though AA is the weakest it has been since 0.8.0.

CVs already claim the top spot by a huge margin in: - spotting - utility - range - survivability among other things. And now you demand that their damage potential gets the top spot by default as well since it is not allowed to be shut down? And you want to educate me lol. Also who said anything about AP bombs? Torps, rockets and HE bombs can easily do unavoidable crippling damage as well. 1. A reworked CV armed with AP bombs kills a DM just as fast as an RTS CV armed with AP bombs would oneshot it. 2. No one said anything about returning to RTS, or, even if that were the case, have the broken RTS AP bombs make a return as well. 3. Unless you didn't have AFT + AA range or mismanaged DFAA wiping out those DBs before they can drop was a formality at best. As such "git gud" applies here ironically enough unlike against reworked CVs where you have no options whatsoever.

Uh huh, how so?

Because striking a cruiser for half his health in a single attack with no counterplay options on his part is funny I suppose?

Yup. That's how worthless CV fighters are nowadays. (Also those were 6 of my fighters he got that I used to cancel his. So in reality he got 0.) Friesland AA is actually quite meh. Most of his plane kills are fighters used to spot I believe.

- Montana currently has the best AA in this game - Attack him 3 times with Saipan TBs - deal almost 60k damage total - he gets 6 planes as a trade Yeah, truly AA is too strong atm.