El2aZeR

- most CVs are potatoes and cannot dodge flak - DFAA boosts flak damage to instakill levels - DFAA boosts DPS by a negligible amount Do the math.

Except one can in fact just cycle and spam them to theoretically deny all viable targets, aka shut the enemy CV down. It doesn't work currently only because the fighter is completely useless at air denial, not because it isn't possible to just constantly spam them over allies. And again, the proposed concept makes them even more useless to the point where their existence can be put into question.

You do realize even said DD player himself admitted that this result is in fact completely irrelevant? Yes. Meanwhile whether you survive against a CV or not depends entirely on the CV player. Thank you for making my point. Shima torps were nerfed pretty quick and it was never as effective as most people make it out to be. It was just toxic for gameplay for the same reason why CVs are toxic for gameplay today. Kami was fairly dominant because it was a seal clubber and even she was never as dominant as CVs are today, thus according to you reworked CVs must be even more broken. Ironically you have made my point once again. Way to destroy your own narrative. Do tell me the reaction time someone has with a Kleber launching torps at 5km. If you haven't noticed what I stated is actually in line with your example. So in everything you have sought to disprove you have actually done the exact opposite. Congratulations. You have answered your own question, which you would know if you had actually bothered to keep up with the conversation.

Deine Beobachtungsfähigkeiten sind irrelevant. Fakt ist weiterhin, dass fighter despawnen sobald sie auch nur einen Schadenspunkt austeilen.

Because allowing CVs to shut each other down is exactly what the rework seeked to eliminate. The whole base concept is written around that. If you have only one squad as a CV, then that squad needs to deal damage or CVs become completely pointless. This naturally prevents any kind of effective counterplay, including fighters. If you do allow effective counterplay then the rework automatically becomes a failure as we have already seen. Probably why they removed it. If CV can't all over everything their rework would fail as 0.8.5 has already proven. A lot more BBs have realistic access to the fighter plane without severely sacrificing performance than cruisers. I mean, e.g. a DM COULD take the fighter into combat, but that would mean leaving radar at home. Also BBs generally outperform cruisers in AA DPS as well, not to mention they're far more tanky against CV ordinance. The whole rework was a gigantic BB buff relatively speaking.

Barely matters in fact. The CV holds all the advantages.

On the contrary the closer you get to a CV the stronger it gets, up until where your AA guns can shoot down returning planes which is practically point blank. A ship approaching a CV is actually at a severe disadvantage.

Yes, however that is entirely up to how skilled the enemy CV is and has nothing to do with your own ability. Even back when CVs were uncommon DDs weren't nearly as dominant as CVs currently are. Your point defeats itself, really. Speed matters little, reaction time and torpedo stealth are far more important. Black torps do very well in that.

Well, anything that truly "stops" an attack breaks the rework, so meh. And guess how many squads the enemy CV has to attack with? 3 fighters constantly cycling is more than enough coverage. Cruisers are far less likely to have a catapult fighter unless in tiers where it has diminished performance anyway. In general BBs are the class that benefit most. While DFAA strength indeed has nothing to do with BBs, buffing it while retaining or even expanding on current catapult fighter strength leaves too few targets for a class whose sole purpose is to grief surface ships. At best you can switch around which targets are preferable and imo those should be BBs. The best course of action is ofc to remove/rework CVs entirely, but that's never going to happen.

What immediately comes to mind is that it would be plain weird. Most, if not all CV mechanics are immersion breaking as it is. And I believe that'd make fighters even more pointless than they are now. An inaccurate attack is still an attack that goes through. It'd make no difference between taking one accurate attack or several inaccurate ones except that the enemy planes get to fly back instead of being shot down.

It is a nerf precisely because patrol area is extended and aggro timer shortened. A bigger patrol area = less AA exposure. A faster aggro time = faster canceling with own fighter This means you'll be able to quickly and efficiently despawn fighters every single time and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Currently with a longer aggro time and a smaller patrol area it is a bit more difficult and also dependent on RNG. As for CBs only: https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/130155-st-patrol-fighters-consumable-loop-and-bering-sea-maps/

AA grouping is worthless as 12vs12 Clan Brawls has more than proven. The only thing that matters is the skill of the enemy CV.

You have a natural speed advantage over your enemy by spawning closer to your allies than the enemy CV. Indom/GZ speed isn't necessary. I have experienced fighter spam. Without being able to despawn them the rework falls apart extremely quick.

Any but RN CVs.

Im direkten Vergleich machen reworked CVs den gleichen oder mehr Schaden als RTS CVs im gleichen Zeitraum. https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/122388-comparison-rts-vs-reworked-cvs/ https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/124920-rts-vs-rework-saipan/ Ohne DoT sind reworked CVs sogar DEUTLICH im Vorteil. Und es ist bei weitem nicht der einzige Vorteil den sie haben *hust* AA *hust*. Wenn man also den "geringeren" Schaden als "Verbesserung" ansieht behauptet man in Wirklichkeit das Gegenteil. Ist ja auch nicht mehr nötig. Man kann ja im Alleingang ganze Flanken vernichten. Da muss man sich nicht mehr auf sein Team verlassen und hoffen, dass die auch das wirklich wegballern was gespotted wird. Kann man jetzt selber machen egal ob es jetzt der krasseste AA Kreuzer oder der billigste DD ist. Ist an sich schon mal paradox, da Jäger völlig nutzlos sind was air-to-air angeht. Versuchen, das eigene Team zu schützen, ist aktiv versuchen, das Match zu verlieren. Es ist schnuppe ob du glaubst, dass CV play ein Schadensrennen ist oder nicht. Fakt ist, dass es eins ist. Kannst auch glauben, dass die Erde flach ist, ändert aber nichts an der Realität. Und übrigends, Fighter bleiben nicht "übrig". Die hauen ab nachdem das Ziel vernichtet wurde auch wenn sie nur einen einzigen Schadenspunkt ausgeteilt haben. Es ist daher völlig egal, welches fighter squad in einem Kampf überlebt, im Endeffekt werden beide eliminiert.

.....WAT.

Fighters are literally programmed to shoot down planes on a 1 for 1 basis. It would still be a viable option for AA defense just like it is now. It's just nowhere near as effective which would be fine if DFAA is buffed instead. Which in itself runs contrary to the base concept of the rework and thus destroys it.

Make the catapult fighter passively add to mid range DPS is something I'd test. So say if the catapult fighter adds 50 DPS that would make Musashi AA still pathetic but it wouldn't be completely useless. Also gets rid of the dumb "launch entire fighter squad" bs.

There is literally a Zao right next to the DD as well. It's overlapping with the Somers on the minimap. That's 2 cruisers for AA support with one of them in the optimal range. Didn't you just say that a single Zao is sufficient? Also it's not even 2 mins into the match. Where else is the DD supposed to go? Sit afk in spawn? Isn't that literally the definition of toxic gameplay if you're FORCED to afk? Audacious has vertical dispersion, meaning that it literally doesn't matter how you maneuver. Literally the only thing the Shima could have done is smoke, which in itself is again toxic gameplay as it wastes a valuable consumable not even 2 mins into the match for absolutely nothing but survival. Shima AA is off btw. No tracers. Yeah, that's rich. Again, forcing a DD to waste a consumable that early for absolutely no gain is the very definition of toxic gameplay. To say that this is the DD's fault and not just completely garbage game design is extremely laughable.

Yup. Personally I believe the catapult fighter to be terrible, but not because they hurt CVs. It's because they make BBs, even the ones with terrible AA, perform better in an AA role than cruisers equipped with DFAA. Des Moines with DFAA? EZ clap. Musashi with catapult fighter? Well, , either accept losses or look for another target. So personally I'd overhaul the entire concept of catapult fighters (and DFAA) rather than tweaking something on the current mechanics.

We were talking about CV fighters. Catapult fighters remain unchanged afaik.

You are clearly underestimating the speed with which this can be accomplished.

No it won't. Because it is actually a significant nerf to fighters. It's also only for CBs. So he can troll DDs to become overconfident to make farming them easier. Didn't you read on Discord?

No, 1-2 fighters mean 1-2 planes lost. It's entirely insignificant and can even be cheesed with heal. The range was increased, so friendly AA plays little to no role. Not possible because CV play will devolve into fighter spam.

Would be incredibly pointless as in a fighter trade usually only 1 or 2 will be left alive which won't make any appreciable difference. In fact it may even make fighters more useless as you'd have to wait out the full duration before being able to place a new one with that particular plane type.