Verblonde

It kind of is, at least in part: Things like IJN torp boats with poor AA, are largely Doomed, so that isn't too much l2p, unless you want to be a mediocre cruiser. Even if you ignore Kidd, there are several decent options at T8 that can work against planes: Benson (obviously - DefAA), Hsienyang (almost a Benson), Loyang (actually Benson - I smell a theme), Harekaze; I'm rusty on the Russians, so maybe them; expand that to include the general MM spread, and there are plenty more. Pick one, and tool it up for AA, at least partly (no meme builds here, thank you); you want at least a 13 point captain, in my view - standard 10 points + BFT. Don't rush straight for the cap (that'll get you killed even with no CVs around). Aim to ambush planes by lurking behind islands with AA off until they're in your middle aura (+/-); fire up DefAA if it isn't on cooldown/used up. In between being attacked/spotted by planes, do traditional DD things.

If you'll forgive some disagreement: that's patently untrue for a lot of DDs (especially US ones); I do think these discussions would be more productive if we acknowledge that - as far as CVs are concerned - not all DDs are created equal. I've more or less stopped playing IJN torp boats, whereas on the other hand my current record for plane kills is 63 in Kidd (can't remember opposition - two CVs, though, at least one was only T6). I have also a record of 30 for Harekaze, which is perhaps more meaningful - I believe that was against same tier opposition at least. This is, frankly, a potato playing; I'm certain that a competent player could do rather better...

Is historical inevitability, comrade!

What are people's thoughts vis-a-vis SE versus AA? I've been tending to pick the former first as it also boosts the parent CV a bit too (I believe?), but I haven't done the maths to test if that's actually really stupid, and AA is better if you're going to pick just one...

Perhaps give the 'real' ones much longer duration, and perhaps a wider radius of action? You could rationalise this in terms of the 'summoned' ones having to come from somewhere else, so less time/fuel available to chase around after enemy planes...?

Cheer up - I've done it several times (and those are just the ones I know about!)!

That's not a bad idea at all. How would you differentiate it from those ships with catapult fighters already, though?

Leander (a light cruiser) is a different kettle of fish; also, RN CLs are not easy mode by any means - most players tend to find some of the other cruiser lines are a better choice for one's initial foray into higher tiers. Besides being spectacularly fragile, you lack an HE round for your main guns. I'm pretty weak in cruisers (light or heavy), but you definitely don't want to go off alone, and always make sure you have some cover nearby (an island, ideally) to hide behind; having watched CL meisters a bit, the trick seems to be to pop in and out of cover to fire, so keeping yourself protected as much possible. BTW as @DFens_666 says, you have access to smoke; you *always* want to mount this on your RN CLs (at least until you get to the point where radar becomes an option, and that's arguable). This illustrates a useful point though: whenever you get a new ship, it's always worth double-checking which consumables are in which slots - it's easy to miss stuff (like this) if you aren't methodical.

I suggest a bit of refinement of technique may be in order: focus on your US DDs (and perhaps the Germans, as you get the hang of it) - these are the ones with decent AA (the US especially, once they get DefAA). For the US: Get the hull that allows you to mount DefAA (leave your AA off - P key - until planes are around your middle aura); with this, unless horribly uptiered, you can make planes regret their life choices. You'll lose a bit of surface to surface dakka, but it's worth it for the AA boost. Keep islands between you and the enemy fleet, when fighting planes; you can do DD things in between attacks, or if the CV gives up on you, or gets sunk. Don't over-extend, but you don't need to camp. Standard captain build for the first ten points, then take BFT (more AA, as well as making up for the lost turret for surface to surface). Make prodigious use of smoke, especially to cover your allies; incidentally, smoke can also be a decoy for the enemy planes - they have to be right on top of you to spot you, so you can run away, or be doing something else whilst the planes investigate a smoke cloud that you aren't in... Assuming you don't have SI on your captain yet, take premium consumables - besides the faster cool-down, they'll give you an extra charge (assuming you have enough silver to afford it).

@valrond - you rotter! I've been having a lovely time learning (or trying, at any rate) to play CVs against people who don't know this stuff - don't give the game away! It also makes life easier in my DDs, as most of the CVs at the moment don't seem to expect one to try any of this stuff either...

@Toteu4ever - Good luck, although I suspect you're on a bit of a hiding to nothing. Assuming WG aren't terribly sympathetic, try the following with Z-39; she's actually pretty decent in the new meta: She has pretty decent AA; *perhaps* make it better still by adding the AA module. Standard DD captain for your first ten points; take BFT after that, to boost the AA further. Leave AA switched off by default (P key is the toggle by default). Drive a little less aggressively than you might have previously; keep islands between you and most/all enemy guns when possible. When planes get into your AA, activate AA guns; if they aren't attacking you directly, make use of sector switching - with careful steering, you can keep them in your reinforced arc. In between plane attacks, or if the CV leaves you alone, do regular DD things - you still have the powerful hydro/smoke combo (use a 'magic' hydro upgrade for coal, ideally). The only DDs that have been utterly stuffed by the rework are those with poor AA, which this isn't one of. Can't offer much guidance with Leningrad, as I haven't really paid her much attention lately...

Suggest not feeding the troll; no-one who isn't trolling is *that* willfully blind to facts...

I like the pretties, and don't mind having something that skilled CV players can dodge (and, admittedly, I usually fly right into); AFT should certainly boost the stuff that isn't largely dependent on RNG though...

My feeling is that something along these lines might be the way to explore. I think that giving all DDs monster AA would be unwise, if only because it would reduce variety in the game. The US (and some Russian DDs) already get DefAA; I don't think the Germans and American-derived PA DDs really need it; you could make a case for the T8 (and above?) IJN gunboats, as it was built as an AA specialist. The crucial problem is the IJN torp boats, and they certainly need some help somewhere. If we're thinking in this sort of direction, I would mention that some sort of (another) rework of DefAA might be in order? If we look at the wiki (http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Consumables#Defensive_AA_Fire) we see that it only boosts the larger AA guns; maybe tweak it such that the effect applies to all AA (although there would need to be some sort of counter-balancing buff to planes)? On the subject of DefAA, am I the only one that misses the passing of the 'oddball' DefAA ships, notably Hood, and her ludicrous rockets?

Since there seems to be an enthusiasm to try and out-do the actual real-life naval powers with this fantasy Russian stuff, one wonders what they'll do to try and top Churchill's noted quote on the subject of the Royal Navy's traditions...?

Sadly, I'm sufficiently new to Groz that I only got to pull that stunt a few times! I miss the Kidd glory days too... Objectively (and through gritted teeth), I suspect that it's probably not a bad thing that they were nerfed a bit in this regard. That said, they're still pretty unpleasant to deal with if built for AA; ambushing planes is still a key part of what I'm doing with Groz since the rework...

I'm not sure that adding the odd-tiers back would be too traumatic, as it wouldn't be an acknowledgment of the failure of the whole concept (playable planes etc.); rather, it could be spun as "aren't we splendid, we listened, and here's lots of 'new' CVs for you to muck about with?". That said, it still won't happen: the 'missing' CVs will probably end up being future extra tree branches => $$$$ for free xping up the line etc.

I think you can be more specific; it's mostly just the IJN torp boat specialists who are seriously upset - to be fair, they have good reason to be too. I'm a DD main (although trying to fix that a bit recently), and sub-average, so I ought to be food for CVs most of the time; as far as I can tell though, the situation is fine, provided I don't play my IJN torp boats (and a few others with poor AA), and have the sense to build the DDs that I am playing (mainly US, PA, and KM, plus a dash of Russians) with at least a bit of an eye to AA. However, the IJN torp boats are basically boned - they can't defend themselves adequately against planes, and are utterly reliant on stealth, which evapourates when planes are around. It's not really surprising that people for whom that *is* DDs are cross. I personally just stopped playing them...

Not *all* DDs, I suggest - I actively like playing higher tier US DDs at the moment for example, because (against most players, anyway) they can hold their own in the teeth of opposing CVs - you just have to keep an eye on LOS to enemy ships. It's certainly not a forgone conclusion either way (assuming no unicums in the equation), but if it were a dead cert, it would be dull...

True, but you were reliant on allies to be competent, and we all know how often that happens (outside of a division). The second part is also true, although the CV could put more than one squadron up at once with RTS, which meant the distinction is rather moot after the first couple of minutes of the game (if the CV really wants you dead). I maintain that all that's really changed, effectively, for the IJN torp boats (et al.) is the frequency of the issue. Asashio is my most played ship (slightly to my surprise), but I've barely touched it since the rework; that said, I was worm food against a competent CV with RTS, it's just that it happened very rarely because far fewer people played CVs, and even fewer of them knew what they were doing...

Agree very much with this, at least until a substantial chunk of players have a reasonable number of eligible CVs - it wouldn't be entirely unprecedented too; early seasons of Ranked weren't T10 because too few players had T10 ships at that point... I personally think that the odd tier CVs should still be in the game too though - @Panocek's point about planes sounds eminently sensible to me. As it stands, to me anyway, the jumps between the various carrier tiers feel a bit much - compared to conventionally tiered trees...

I suspect you'd want to be careful with buffing Mikasa: besides her being a bit hopeless being part of her charm, there might be a danger of her turning into a seal-clubber-of-choice if she was made even a bit good? I'm not saying don't buff her (gods, she could use it!), but a lot of care would be needed is all...

You're playing a Yugumo - of course you got tonked by CVs. This speaks to my only real gripe with the CVs; they've made IJN torp boats (and anything else with rubbish AA) largely useless against a half competent CV driver. A lot of DDs are, I would suggest, fine (more or less) with the new CVs - we used to get our posteriors handed to us by the old CVs too; it's just that there were far fewer of them. 'Well played" is the crucial part of that; from what I'm seeing, a DD with adequate AA can still do its job most of the time, it just requires a few tweaks to how you play, many of which (related to spotting especially) we had to do anyway with the plethora of radar ships running around. Of course, if you encounter a unicum CV driver, you're probably dead (or at least, I am), but how does that differ from encountering a unicum in anything else? My feeling is that the basic nuts and bolts of things aren't too bad at the moment (in general), but something does indeed Need To Be Done for those DDs with poor AA. Whilst I'm generally keen on historical accuracy (yeah, yeah - I know), I don't think it would destroy the game if - perhaps - the AA firepower of the 'rubbish AA' DDs was boosted somehow, and maybe for a short period. The idea being to arrange matters such that they stop being a completely 'free lunch' for CVs, whilst not being completely unrealistic AA powerhouses...

Suggest the latter part of this sentence hasn't been entirely thought through: the only ways you could achieve the latter would be one of the following: Remove aircraft entirely. Slow aircraft to only marginally faster than DDs. Make aircraft entirely blind. Given the fundamental characteristics of the class, isn't it inevitable that they'll dominate the spotting tables? Things like damage/kills are reasonable targets for discussion, and buffs/nerfs (as appropriate), but I think we're kind of stuck with CVs as the preeminent spotters, as long as they're in the game...

<Wanders off to look at the news site> Oh gods, this is all going to get *really* embarrassing, isn't it? How is this level of Tiny Willy Syndrome even possible when you're the country that produced the Red Army...?!