Verblonde

I think this is a little harsh: admittedly, I'm only up to T9 on this line, and you do get dumped on from a great height by planes, but Jutland is fun at least - she feels a bit like a T9 Haida. With a hydro mod on, you're functionally immune to incoming torps for an absolute age, and the single fire torps are very nice too. My only real whinge (beside the AA sucking) is that you really have to take IFHE to get the most out of the HE. Also, I think mine may be Cursed, but that's just me... As said before though, definitely not a 'first' DD line.

First thing, you will probably have to compromise on at least one of those things somewhere on whatever tree you pick. Also, the following assumes *at least* a ten point captain (CE is basically essential on any DD that makes serious use of concealment). The classic first lines are US and IJN; which to pick depends on what you see when you stare into your crystal balls: at the moment, CV presence in games has largely cratered, but if they return in meaningful numbers, the IJN torp line is probably boned if CVs retain their spotting abilities. I would pick the US personally to start with: supreme generalists and they have (for a DD) decent AA defences. You will have to endure an inability to stealth torp until you get the T7's upgraded torps, but up until that point is a great opportunity to learn how to use your guns (and when), which is an essential skill for pretty much all DDs. You also have access to plenty of worthwhile premiums. The IJN torp line used to be my favourite, but the CV rework made it massively less viable. If you really want 10 km torps at relatively low tiers, it might still be worth a look, but be mindful that all your grinding may be wasted if CVs return in a meaningful way. As an alternative, the IJN 'gun' line is very worthwhile in places; it's worth it for the T7 alone, which is absolutely glorious if you go with a TRB build. The main plus point (for me) of the gun line is that it's marginally less boned than the torp line if a CV takes a serious interest. Don't forget: the spotting distance for pretty much all IJN torps is somewhere around the outer planets, so you're often relying on people being stupid to get hits (or get so close that you might as well be playing a more manly line anyway). Don't discount the KM DDs though: although they're a bit tubby, they have good torps, and get access to the splendid smoke/hydro combination (from T6), not to mention a couple of candidates for the best DD premiums in the game. Their AA is 'good enough' to not be food for a lot of CVs. After the Americans, I might go with Germans for my second line. After your first couple of lines, I might be tempted to look at the PA line, as it's quite interesting and varied, plus you get access to radar (if you drop smoke) from T8 upwards, which can be useful - be prepared to stop at T9 though, as the T10 has been nerfed into the ground. It's worth having a think about what you want/need from a line though: a decent T10 is nice for the various competitive modes, although the lines with superior T10s can have flakier things lower down, and vice versa. One of my favourite DDs is Groz (T10 Russian 'torp' line) - good generalist with a heal, and monstrous AA - but getting there can be a bit wearing in places. This is another plus for the US/KM lines - mid tiers aren't too painful for either. It might be worth having a look around in Sprint to see which DDs everyone is playing; for example, I'm seeing a lot of T7 KM DDs, presumably for the smoke/hydro... Finally, as mentioned earlier, good captains are especially important for DDs, as you're generally very reliant on concealment (Russian dakka line excepted, where hiding is for wimps); I would suggest picking a line where you have access to at least one good training premium so as to speed up the development of your captains. Again, this suggests the Americans (especially), and the Germans (conversely, the 'standard' IJN premium DD is Asashio, and that lends itself to a rather weird captain build, and gets tonked by planes). Quite probably a stupid suggestion, but anyway: If you don't mind spending money, and have spare ten point (at least) captains, you could give things like Sims and Z-39 a lash in Ranked Sprint at the moment (there's also a package with a 10 pointer for Z-39); that'll give you an idea of the flavour of the US/KM lines. On the 'con' side, you'll probably get your [edited]handed to you if you lack suitable experience, and if you hate them, you're kind of stuck...

These two quotes pretty much sum up my view of this scenario as well. I wonder if the participation numbers are noticeably lower for this particular Op...

I have to admit, I've been giving Jutland a bit of a run-out lately, having largely neglected it recently - if the planes numbers remain low for a few more weeks, I might finally be able to unlock the T10. Thank you everyone for the feedback!

Most likely, the silly sod searched for slightly the wrong name compared to whoever actually vexed him in game and messaged whoever came up. Now about those dogs...?

Good decision - thank you! Also: impressed that you guys were able to respond well during a public holiday - hat-tip!

Just thought I'd log in to see if WG had come to their senses yet - nope. Not only that, I see they announced this idiocy immediately before a bank holiday, so allowing the fire to burn out of control for an extra day; the reputational damage they are doing to themselves (especially given the arrogant 'we know best' vibe given in the stream etc.) is astounding...

True, and that exercise wasn't entirely negatively received - some of the players were in the "hells, no" camp, whilst others would have been fine with it, provided said pref MM tanks had been buffed enough to be relevant...

I rather feel this occasion is different, in that I don't recall universal negativity of this level about any previous announcements. Also, in general, people are pretty clear that it's not the fundamental fact of NTC that they object to - the option to grind lines over again to get stuff (which option can be ignored if you don't want to do it) - but rather that the rewards include performance bonuses, so effectively making the grind mandatory if you want to be competitive. If the rewards had been things like magic captains, premium ships and that kind of stuff, *then* we would have seen the community do its usual thing i.e. argue and bicker among themselves, but not really entirely coalesce around one particular viewpoint.

I imagine it'll be because when WG survey the player-base, they include all the people with spectacularly bad WRs (they're players too, after all) and I guess that kind of player just wants to lose less, and doesn't really care how, or for the long-term health of the game. That kind of player will want a buff, which won't help them, but this is the same kind of person that buys high tier ships, thinking the extra firepower will do the job (and forgetting that everyone else has it too). My suspicion is that cosmetic rewards *alone* won't achieve WG's ends; however, in conjunction with other stuff (coal, economic bonuses, 'premium' status for ships - all the good stuff plenty of people have already suggested) it might be enough. I'm pretty confident that buffs won't work either, because they'll drive plenty of whales away from the game...

I fear you may be being a bit kind, although I'm not entirely without sympathy: their job (in this case) is basically to sell something entirely unacceptable to their customers, even though - I suspect - they know perfectly well it's entirely unacceptable. If they don't, their bosses will presumably have a sense of humour failure with them...

The starter for ten numbers are in the first post of this thread... Edit: were.

I would suggest that it is abundantly clear that you don't! If the players had actually been heard, you would have already announced that the idea had been canned, at least until further work had been done on it to make it acceptable. Every day that you don't pull the plug, more and more players will find out about this (I'm guessing it's mainly the keen ones so far - recall that the weekend starts in about 24 hours) and that's more and more players where you'll have to rebuild your relationship with them. It's clans on Saturday - do you really think that there is the slightest chance that this won't be discussed when people gather online? WG: be sensible - push the pause button; you are currently doing yourselves a great deal of harm.

Then don't implement it, and return to the drawing board. For once there is almost zero (zero!) ambiguity in the community response: essentially no-one wants performance buffs of any kind in the game, and especially if the people who get them are the most experienced players. I really couldn't give a pair of fetid dingo's kidneys how long it takes to get these upgrades, or how minuscule the bonus is; it still remains the fact that in the long-term, the best players will have the best ships. To proceed on this course is a de facto acknowledgment that WG has given up on trying to grow the player-base. If that is the case, why should existing players bother spending any more money on it? Simple churn will render the game dead in a few years... WG ditched Rubicon, which wasn't even as stupid as this; you can ditch NTC.

Eurgh! This is a variation on the Yamato cammo with boosters offer. I don't actually mind WG trying to sell this kind of booster (it's an extension of the pay to advance faster thing); what I do mind is that said boosters only last for a couple of patches - a customer could buy them, and then have real life intervene such that they have to stop playing for a bit, and then their money is wasted.

Also, the bonuses were tied to specific emblems, so everyone who had paid money for emblems etc. already would have to buy many new ones, as the ones they already had could easily be sub-optimal for the vehicles they were already on. So, as well as blatant pay-to-win, anyone who wanted the 'best' setup for their AFV had to use very specific emblems, so killing customisation.

I have to ask: did you lose a bet, such that you're the one stitched up with having to try and sell this stuff? I'm afraid this is fairly rudimentary PR/marketing stuff: when something as potentially damaging as NTC is announced, are you really surprised that no-one is paying much attention to the other stuff? All the other stuff becomes almost entirely irrelevant, in the face of a principle as bad as NTC. You could probably announce a free T10 premium for every player, and most wouldn't care very much as they'd never get to play it properly because there'd always be some bugger with an NTC-enhanced T10 to club them.

Nothing quite of this level, and with such consistency of view in one direction (that could perhaps be summarised as "not keen"). The closest is the row that broke out over Rubicon in WOT (which was fairly quickly withdrawn as a result), and my subjective view is that the negativity aimed at NTC is even more pronounced...

Thank you for the reply. I would suggest that your internal processes may be broken: this all smells of someone Important proposing a bad idea and no-one lower down the tree having the minerals (or lack of a mortgage) to oppose it... This actually isn't that hard to fix; I would imagine that after this more or less universal negativity in response to the idea, you guys are busily trying to work out how to roll it back without too much of loss of face (followed by some serious reputation damage mitigation): State clearly and publicly (and stick to it) that henceforth the principle of grinding (or paying) to achieve an objectively significantly better version of an existing ship will never happen. If you are too heavily invested in the 'multi-grind' system to simply bin it, introduce it, but with sensible rewards that do not provide an in-game performance bonus (this thread is bulging with good alternative ideas). Make it *really* clear that the rewards are entirely different to the initial proposal (I suspect you've just destroyed a lot of trust amongst the players, so they'll be watching closely). If you actually want people to be playing other tiers, introduce a bunch of entertaining missions for only those tiers that your figures say are sparse (you'll probably flog a few more premiums in the process). Form focus groups of active players (of all levels) who can be trusted to confidentially provide feedback on potentially bad ideas (good ones too), to try and avoid this sort of thing happening again - as I said earlier, your internal 'bad idea filter' is not stopping damaging moves before they are apparently very advanced. Finally, try not to do anything else foolish to further damage the relationship with your players for at least six months!

Drat - clicked the wrong option: I meant to add my vote to the don't mind non-combat advantages option, not no grinding whatsoever... Sorry.

You understand? Really?! I'm curious how the lunatic idea of the training centre made it this far - you guys *must* have known it was monumentally ill-advised, surely? Incidentally, by sending out the thread closing militia everywhere else, you're doing the equivalent of putting up a huge flashing neon sign saying "discussion suppression here". You want constructive criticism? Fine: Even though it would benefit me personally, if I could be bothered, *anything* that knackers game balance is a bad idea - this includes having 'magic' T10s with in-game performance bonuses; any old lag (who is probably already better than a newbie, just through sheer numbers of games) with a fully 'extra upgraded' ship is going to go through a newbie faster than a ripe fruit through a short grandmother. As a corollary of the previous point, this hands a significant advantage to exactly the people who don't need one i.e. the very experienced players. Furthermore, if you want these (necessary, if you want to be competitive) extra upgrades, and don't have all the time in the world, then you are going to have to pay real money to get there in time to matter (because the 'no lifers' will certainly get there first otherwise) - free xp conversion etc. In a few seconds, almost anyone remotely familiar with the game could come up with far better - and infinitely less damaging - alternative rewards: Turn a silver ship 'premium' (i.e. make it exactly as if it were a premium at that tier, although you might allow subsequent nerfs - like the 'collectors' AFVs in WOT Blitz - so it would simply be a version of the silver ship with a perma-camo that will accept any camo, and gives appropriate economic bonuses). Win a separate 'sister' to the silver lines - unique camo, takes the same captain as the silver line one, maybe. Something like that. Turn a captain 'unique': you could have a number of options, of various costs in the reward currency e.g. big flags, coloured tracers etc. Perhaps allow a buff to one skill only, from a defined list (so no magic CE for example). Pretty much any cosmetic thing e.g. new camo, extra flag - this stuff doesn't impact anyone's performance in the game, so isn't going to break anything. Have unique ships available via the armoury (they can be copy-paste to keep the workload manageable); you only get access to those ships via the re-grinds, and don't sell them for cash - the *only* way to get them is the re-grind. Makes sure said ships are balanced, obviously, before release. I could go on, but you get the idea - nothing that buggers up game balance, and *especially* not stuff that makes players who are already powerful even more so!

FWIW my feeling is that the moment you (i.e. WG) start mass-closing threads, it just flags up whatever the subject is as almost certainly a colossally unpopular idea that WG don't want us to talk about. Whilst i can't speak for anyone else, I never bother with the amalgamated threads (they're too long and incoherent to glean any useful information from in a practical time-frame); as someone who's been around forums elsewhere, the best policy is to let the rage burn itself out and - ideally - have fixed whatever was causing the rage. If you are generating almost universal opprobrium on something, maybe at least revisiting that subject would be in order. At the moment, it looks like WG are trying to snuff out dissent; they won't succeed, it's really not a good look, and they almost certainly *will* annoy a lot of paying customers in the process.

So, it appears that WOWS may be about to have its 'Rubicon moment'? Training Centre is spectacularly ill thought-out: if you're going to provide something for the old lags, it shouldn't be something to make their ships even better - Sure, I would love to have a couple of buffed T10s, but there is no way it's healthy for the game...

Well, I suppose they just made Kidd a somewhat more viable pick again...

I like them a lot (although I'm not great with them); the main reasons I didn't put them in my earlier post were that they suffer a bit more from CVs (although the degree varies a bit), and they aren't the best candidates for one's first line of DDs - my feeling is that the skill-set required to get the most from them is more usefully acquired elsewhere first.