KMS_Tirpitz

She could've been repaired back to a seaworthy state, however it would've been extremely expensive and in the end it was deemed pointless as the KM at this point didn't even have the fuel to operate her in her intended role (intended as in what she was designed for), her actual role at this point in the war had for some time simply been to make the Allies to expend unnecessary amounts of resources on trying to locate and destroy her. Hence why she sailed to Tromsø - a bad move in hindsight.

http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/tirpitz.html "On September 11, 1944, 38 Lancasters of 9 and 617 Squadrons set out to fly to an airfield in Northern Russia which was to be used as a base for an attack on the battleship which was at anchor in Kaa Fjord in Northern Norway. Several of the bombers were forced to crash-land and only 27 took off on September 15th, 20 carrying Tallboys. With mountains screening the Lancasters' approach from enemy radar, the Tirpitz was caught by surprise and her smoke-screens were late in starting. One Tallboy smashed through the Tirpitz's forecastle and burst deep in her hull. The shock caused by the explosion of this bomb or possibly other bombs which were near misses, also damaged the ship's engines. All of the Lancasters returned safely to the airfield in Russia. The Germans decided that it was not practical to make Tirpitz fully seaworthy again and she was moved to Tromso, further south in Norway, but only for use as a semi-static, heavy artillery battery. The British were not aware of the extent of the damage and the Tirpitz was attacked again on October 29th. 37 Lancasters were dispatched from Lossiemouth, Scotland. With the removal of the Lancaster's mid-upper gun turrets and the installation of extra fuel tanks, the Tirpitz could now be reached directly from Britain, although it required a 2250 mile operation." In addition to this the Tirpitz had already been hit with fifteen (!) 1600 lbs AP bombs during operation Tungsten in April 44. In other words, the Bismarck class was, to the most extreme degree, unusually hard to sink.

I'd just like to see her historical capability reflected better, i.e. it makes zero sense that she has a shorter range ingame than the Fuso.

The 50 k tons figure for the Bismarck class refers to her fully loaded displacement as well, the "std" displacement was 41 k ton. In other words just 6 k tons heavier than the KGV class whilst being noticably better armed.

Did you read the initial description Ammboz? There'in lies the answer to your questions.

Here are some real life statistics on the guns on some of the ships already featured or to be featured ingame so you can compare as to how well they are simulated ingame: Note: Maximum range is limited to 25 deg elevation as it has been mentioned that WG limits gun elevation to 25 deg ingame. 460mm L/45 Type 94 (Yamato class) Shell weight:............................ 1,460 kg (AP) Muzzle velocity:.......................780 m/s (AP) Range @ 25 deg:....................31,425 m (AP) Train rate:................................2 deg sec Elevation rate:..........................10 deg sec Max reload rate:.......................2.0 rpm Average reload rate (25 deg):..1.7 rpm 406mm L/50 Mk.7 (Iowa Class) Shell weight:............................1,225 kg (AP), 862 kg (HC) Muzzle velocity:.......................762 m/s (AP), 823 m/s (HC) Range @ 25 deg:....................30,450 m (AP), 29,901 m (HC) Train rate:................................4 deg sec Elevation rate:..........................12 deg sec Max reload rate:.......................2.0 rpm Average reload rate (25 deg):..1.8 rpm 380mm L/52 SK C/34 (Bismarck Class) Shell weight:............................800 kg (AP + HE) Muzzle velocity:.......................820 m/s (AP + HE) Range @ 25 deg:....................32,750 m (AP + HE) Train rate:................................5 deg sec Elevation rate:..........................6 deg sec Max reload rate:.......................3.0 rpm Average reload rate (25 deg):..2.5 rpm 410mm L/45 3rd year type (Nagato & Amagi class) Shell weight:............................1,020 kg (AP) Muzzle velocity:.......................806 m/s (AP) Range @ 25 deg:....................29,700 m (AP) Train rate:................................3 deg sec Elevation rate:..........................5 deg sec Max reload rate:.......................2.5 rpm Average reload rate (25 deg):..2.0 rpm 406mm L/45 Mark 6 (North Carolina class) Shell weight:............................1,225 kg (AP), 862 kg (HE) Muzzle velocity:.......................701 m/s (AP), 803 m/s (HE) Range @ 25 deg:....................26,975 m (AP), 28,986 m (HE) Train rate:................................4 deg sec Elevation rate:..........................12 deg sec Max reload rate:.......................2.0 rpm Average reload rate (25 deg):..1.8 rpm 406mm L/45 Mark I (Nelson class) Shell weight:............................929 kg (AP + HE) Muzzle velocity:.......................788 m/s Range @ 25 deg:....................28,500 m (AP + HE) Train rate:................................4 deg sec Elevation rate:..........................10 deg sec Max reload rate:.......................1.5 rpm Average reload rate (25 deg):..1.2 rpm 356mm L/45 Mark VII (King George V class) Shell weight:............................721 kg (AP + HE) Muzzle velocity:.......................757 m/s (AP + HE) Range @ 25 deg:....................26,800 m (AP + HE) Train rate:................................2 deg sec Elevation rate:..........................8 deg sec Max reload rate:.......................2.0 rpm Average reload rate (25 deg):..1.6 rpm 356mm L/45 41st year type (Kongo & Fuso class) Shell weight:............................673 kg (AP) Muzzle velocity:.......................775 m/s (AP) Range @ 25 deg:....................27,750 m (AP) Train rate:................................3 deg sec Elevation rate:..........................5 deg sec Max reload rate:.......................2.0 rpm Average reload rate (25 deg):..1.5 rpm

Considering that an entire RN fleet was unable to sink the Bismarck via gunfire (or torpedoes as most evidence points towards a scuttling) and that even a direct hit by a Tallboy bomb couldn't sink the Tirpitz, I'd say the 50k tons and armour layout were properly distributed, esp. when you consider that airpower was starting to dominate at sea. Furthermore the KGV & Nelson class both displaced roughly 42 k tons, so the British didn't give a damn about the weight limit either, they violated both the weight limit and the gun size limit.

I think it has something to do with playing style. I prefer the challenge of the long range shots and I feel like I've mastered the art of long range shooting quite well so far, with a good chunk of my kills being between 18-21 km. I always strive to keep my enemy at a distance and I always start the engagement at the furthest range possible. I feel like this is the natural role of the battleship, and hence I find it quite dissatisfying to see a higher tier BB which in reality had bigger longer ranged guns and a superior FCS actually outranged by its little sister ingame. It makes just as little sense with the Amagi, which suddenly is up against 23.3 km ship. Thus it really goes against both reality, logic and balance IMHO. PS: I already have the Nagato, and the 1.3 km lower range as compared to the Fuso really feels very awkward and wrong, and it gets esp. frustrating when you come up against a Kongo which ALSO outranges you and can KEEP you at range all day due to her much higher speed. Please WG, give the Nagato a FCS upgrade module, it really does need it Oh so very pretty please WG, the Nagato really needs her 1944 outfit Btw, the 1944 Nagato featured said AA compliment: 98 × 25 mm AA guns 8 x 127mm AAA guns

The Germans were even more so restricted by treaties, hence why the Bismarck class came out with 380mm guns instead of 406mm ones, or why the Scharnhorst class came out with 280mm guns instead of 380mm ones, Also as it turned out it was the British who eventually broke the big gun treaty with the 406mm Mk.I guns for the Nelson class BBs, and not the Germans. Hence your theory that the British were somehow treaty bound into building lesser BBs simply doesn't holder any water. They tried their best to be on top and came up with the Nelson class which in the end fell hopelessly short of expectations.

The deck penetration of one of Tirpitz's (or Bismarck's) 800 kg APC shells was just over 200 mm RHA at 35 km, exactly the same thickness as the Yamato's one layer deck armour scheme, so no a reliable penetration could indeed not be guaranteed, however the APC rounds didn't have to penetrate all the way into the magazine to cause crippling damage, there was a lot of equipment to damage above the deck armour as it was situated pretty far down on the Yamato. Either way in this scenario it wouldn't really be the APC shells that would hurt the Yamato the most, but rather the HE shells which would be fired as well, and I'm sure I don't need to explain what carnage an 800 kg HE shell will cause. In short the Yamato would most likely turn into burning wreck before the end of any 1 vs 1 engagement with the Tirpitz or Iowa, heck the Iowa might even straight out sink her as her 16" Mk.7 guns were capable of penetrating 265mm of deck armour at that range when firing the 1,225 kg super heavy AP shells. Hence why I rate the top 3 battleships of WW2 as 1) Iowa class 2) Bismarck class 3) Yamato class The Yamato has the potential to be the best, but it is ultimately let down by its limited fire control system - one that the Japanese, it needs to be said, were on the way to improving.

Well obviously you don't understand when you say stuff like that So let me ask you again: What good is the thickest armour and biggest guns if you can't track or even see your target? The Tirpitz had full blindfire capability and was was able to direct accurate fire on an enemy vessel from over 35 km away, in the dark and whilst it itself was maneuvering. The Iowa was capable of the same, and with a more powerful armament to boot. What on earth could the Yamato do to counter this? It was slower than both the Tirpitz & Iowa, so it couldn't run away or dictate the engagement range. In other words it's only option is to initiate evasive action whilst it attempts to aim for the flashes in the distance. The only end result of such a scenario would be a completely incapacitated and burning Yamato after the first hour of the engagement, and whilst she might not sink due to direct fire from the enemy, her own crew would surely end up scuttling her to keep her from falling into the hands of the enemy.

3rd most powerful guns put on a battleship, so you can be sure she will pack a punch The high muzzle velocity should also prove useful for deflection shots

The Kongo is a nice ship IMO, nothing wrong with her as far as I have experienced

She is pretty underwhelming atm I agree, but it can be fixed if WG decides to give her a 1940's upgrade, where both her FCS and AA compliment were improved A 22.5 km range would be fair for her and Amagi

Maou you don't seem to understand how important the fire control system is to the combat capability of the ship. Both the Tirpitz & Iowa could fire accurately whilst maneuvering, in the dark, beyond the visual horizon - the Yamato could not. What good is it to have the thickest armour and biggest guns if you can't hit yet alone see your enemy? Think about that for a second Also believe it or not I am not being biased here, eventhough I do understand that my nick doesn't really help to convey that ;)

Unintentional_submarine, on 03 August 2015 - 12:11 AM, said: In case you mean WG, then they didn't. Nagato features prominently in the login screen, with turret range finders and AA emplacements on the turrets. Clearly WG knew what Nagato looked like, but decided not to use that. I was refering to the other posters, but it's curious that WG decided not to use that, esp. balance wise as the Nagato really ought to outrange her little sister Fuso, even if only by a little, say 22 to 22.5 km? The same for the Amagi who otherwise suffers unnecessarily with her 19.9 km against the North Carolina's 23.3 km range. Hence I'm hoping that WG decides to add a FCS module upgrade for Nagato & Amagi so they can get a more reasonable range. Nagato is one of my all time favorite ships, esp. in her 1940's form, so I really would love to sail her in that form - heck I'd even pay to do so. So I'd be happy even if the 1944 upgrade was offered as a premium and would gladly pay for it.

Seems I struck a nerve ^^ Guys keep believing what you want to believe, I am just stating the obvious whilst providing some technical details to show how that was the case. The Bismarck class was not the best battleship of the war, that honor belongs to the Iowa class IMHO. However calling her obsolete is just downright silly, for two years (40-42) she was the best and most powerful BB afloat, and the Tirpitz continued to rank amongst the top 3 for the entirety of the war, although I would argue she was superior to the Yamato due to her all important radar guided FCS, something the Yamato lacked.

The turret rangefinders (which were there since 1933, so it's a pretty big mistake that they aren't there ingame):

Some of the extra features of the 1944 Nagato: - Type 34 FCS - 10 meter turret rangefinders (there since 1933) - Type 21 air search radar - Type 22 surface search radar - Type 13 early warning radar In addition to this extra AA armament was mounted on top of the superfiring turrets. We got the 1944 standard Fuso, so let's have the 1944 standard Nagato as well

Look more closely, because that's not the case. Even Wiki could've told you that ;)

Yup, not sure how they missed all that...

What needs to be kept in mind is that by 1944 the Tirpitz featured a fire control system equal to that of the Iowa class, esp. the FuMO 26 3x6m & FuMO 231 Euklid FCS & search radars were impressive, as the Prinz Eugen demonstrated during a practice shoot on her way to the US immediately after the war. This coupled with the best optical FCS available (insolated & coated), impressive armour and guns more powerful than any found on a British BB made her a force to be reckoned with, hence why the British put so much effort into sinking her. By comparison the Bismarck was even more of a threat in 41, however the Allies had luck on their side with regards to their swordfish strike and the broken down FC radar on the Bismarck, leaving her helpless and surrounded whilst sailing in a predictable circle. Hitting the rudder really was the best possible outcome the British could've hoped for.

The fate of both was sealed via airpower and torpedos, RN battleships really achieved very little during WW2, they litterally didn't sink a single other BB via their own gunfire.

I just hate artificial balance like that.

What's worse is that their range is different too, eventhough they use exactly the same guns and FCS... makes no sense. I mean the Kongo & Fuso both outrange them with smaller lower velocity guns, it's pretty ridiculous.