KMS_Tirpitz

It works the other way round mate, the victors usually glorify their own achievements and overexaggerate the complexity of their own equipment. The Bismarck was so mercilessly hunted down because she WAS a big threat, and enormous resources were spent on destroying the Tirpitz for the very same reason. The capability of these ships were feared, and with good reason as was seen at the Denmark Strait, as they were infact the most potent battleships afloat until the US Iowa class was introduced. In short the British never built a battleship that could rival the Bismarck class, thus they desperately wanted them sunk.

Not the case. The Bismarck & PE infact featured the best radar at the Denmark straight, however Bismarck knocked her own set out before the battle during rapid fire against the shadowing British destroyers Norfolk & Suffolk. During the actual battle both sides used their optical rangefinders for their firecontrol. The German ships didnt fire first because Lutjens didn't want to engage, he initially simply wanted to flee as he was afraid that the entire RN battlefleet was on the way. Only when it was clear that he couldnt escape without a fight and after numerous desperate requests from Bismarcks captain & officers begging to be allowed to open fire did he finally permit the opening of fire. Almost immediately the German ships were on target with numerous straddles and several hits, and within 5 min the Hood was fatally struck by Bismarck. As PoW retreated behind a smokescreen the German ships started to rely on Prinz Eugen radar for firecontrol, striking and straddling the PoW from behind the smoke screen until Lutjens called a ceasefire and ordered his ships to veer away - again with many protests from Bismarcks captain Lindemann who wanted to keep up chasing and sink PoW. In short the only ones with effective fire control radar in 41, as well as the only ones using it as such, were the Germans. The British exclusively used radar for surface search at this point in the war.

Considering that I've one shotted several ships at 20+ km in the Fuso, I have to disagree I really do prefer to stand off and try the more demanding shots, they are so much more rewarding.

1. Keep in mind that no everyone reads every thread 2. The effective RoF was also noticably higher thanks to the noticably faster reloading cycle, which was the point. If the Bismarck only has a 0.3 rpm advantage ingame then it doesn't have its historical advantage when its reloading cycle was some 1 rpm (20 sec) faster than the others, or in other words 50% faster when its from 2 to 3 rpm. So even if you count in the time to elevate the gun when firing at long range the difference would still be 20 sec, which sure enough would decrease the difference in percentage because the total time is increased, but not by a factor of 0.7. In short I'd say that a 2.5 to 2.6 rpm would be more fitting for the Bismarck class ingame considering that the other ships get to keep their historical low elevation max rpm. §That must be a spelling mistake on Navweaps, the max rpm was 2.5 at low elevations for the 410mm 3rd year type naval gun, which was litterally the only gun to come close, and no doubt also thanks to a spacey 2 gun turret.

1. Where have "we" had this discussion? I've certainly never seen that "equation" before. 2. False, there was no Japanese gun of similar caliber capable of 3.3 rpm Finally all I am saying is that the Bismarck needs its historical advantage, and that exactly for the reason of preserving balance as it was one of the main reasons behind the turret design choice.

She was capable of ~3.3 rpm maximum, but as you said the hoists experienced some problems in that particular test, but 3 rpm could be achieved reliably. This is a lot more than what the other BBs were capable of at best, which was 2 rpm. Thus if the Bismarck only gets a RoF of ~2.3 rpm, then the others need one of ~1.5 rpm. Otherwise how is the advantage of the spacey 2 gun turret design faithfully represented ingame? If the other ships keep their real life max 1.8-2.0 rpm then the Bismarck class needs its real life max 3 rpm as well, esp. since a higher RoF was one of the key reasons behind the choice of the turret design = less guns but a higher RoF. This is what will balance out the DPM, otherwise it will fall short for a Tier 8 ship. Sure in reality 3 rpm couldn't be maintained for long range fire, but the other ships couldn't maintain their 2 rpm max at other than close ranges either, yet they have it at all ranges ingame, thus the Bismarck needs the same advantage, otherwise the historical disparity is lost.

I do hope that the Bismarck class's remarkable rate of fire is faithfully represented when she arrives, she was capable of 3 rounds a minute, one of the benefits of the large and spacey 2 gun turret. Obviously such a RoF wasn't performed unless the target's course was predictable, hence why the RoF at the Denmark straight was so low for both parties as they were constantly shifting their aim.

I cannot understand why the 410mm guns on the Nagato feature less range ingame than the 356mm guns on the Fuso? (20.5 vs 21.8 km) This makes very little sense considering the following: 1) The Nagato featured an improved FCS and a larger rangefinder compared with the Fuso 2) The 410 mm/45 3rd Year Type guns easily out ranged the 356mm 43rd Year Type guns Hence an increase in max range is in order IMHO, perhaps to 22.5 km with an FCS upgrade? P41 cm/45 (16.1") 3rd Year Type41 cm/45 (16.1") 3rd Year Type

A 22.5 km max range for the Nagato & Amagi wouldn't hurt balance, esp. considering the long range of the North Carolina = 23.3 km.

Nope. The only battleship that really beat the Bismarck class overall was the Iowa, the Yamato quite simply lacked the FCS & radar to compare. Sure the Yamato's rangefinder was big, but the Japanese didn't utilize anti reflective coatings on their lenses, only the Germans did and it gave them a major advantage, which is no doubt part of the reason the Germans were always so quick to get on target when utilizing optical FC. Furthermore the Bismarck class could keep on target and fire whilst maneuvering, the Yamato couldn't, again only the Iowa matches this. Finally the Bismarck class always had an excellent radar package, and the 1944 refit of the Tirpitz gave her just as impressive a radar package as that on the Iowa class. German, British & US radar capability by year: 1940-41...........German...............British..........USNRange accuracy:..40 meters...........240 yards(1).........N/ABearing Accuracy..0.10*................0.75*..............N/A1942-43..........German................British..........USNRange Accuracy:..40 meters............120 yards(2)......0.1% of range + 40 yardsBearing axxuracy..0.10*.................5-6 arc M (0.10*)...........3-4 mils (0.12-0.20*)1944-45.........German ................British....................USNRange accuracy:.10 or 25 meters.............120 or 40 yards..........0.1% of range + 15 yards.Bearing Accuracy: 0.10*.................0.08*-0.10*................2-3 mils

Her main armament needs an increase in range as it makes very little sense that the Kongo & Fuso outrange her, esp. considering that the Nagato featured a better FCS and further reaching guns. 22.5 km max range with an FCS upgrade would make a lot more sense. (Same for the Amagi)

Looks good, although there a few oddities, one of which is the range of the main & secondary guns. The Bismarck & Tirpitz (esp. the latter) both featured state of the art fire control systems only matched by that of the Iowa class, and the high velocity of their armament gave them a very long effective range. Hence it would be a lot more fair with a max ingame range of 23.3 km, same as the North Carolina & Iowa class. But perhaps that is already achievable with an FC upgrade, but nevertheless I felt it needed to be mentioned. Then there's the secondaries, they really ought to have the same range as the Yamato's, i.e. 7 km, seeing as they were of similar performance and featured better FC to boot.

Can the devs explain why there's a marked difference in time of flight (i.e. muzzle velocity + BC) between the exact same guns ingame? A good example is the Kongo which guns take a whole 2 seconds longer to reach 18.4 km than the Myogi's. This is rather frustrating and needs to be changed IMHO.

The Bismarck and her sister ship Tirpitz were the best battleships in the world until the Iowa was launched, and with its added modifications the Tirpitz was arguably the 2nd best battleship in the world in 1944, again only bested by the Iowa. The Yamato, whilst most certainly the most powerful battleship of WW2, lagged behind in FC to be considered the best, limiting it to daylight operations. Had the Japanese developed their radar tech further the Yamato would've arguably been the best, but fortunately for the US they didn't, which is surprising considering that they had developed the cavity magnetron even before the British. That having been said the latest radar on the Yamato could be used for accurate range keeping, however bearing was still an issue and thus she was limited to accurate fire during the day.

The Type 91 lost velocity at a noticably slower rate however, manly thanks to the boat tail design & higher sectional density, all of which easily made up for the slightky lower MV (~20 m/s, if even at all, there's no data on it),

The problem with the Kongo is that its shells have an unusually long time of flight, some 2 seconds slower at 18 km than the Myogi, which is ridiculous considering that they feature the same 356mm guns. This makes aiming a lot more difficult and basically negates its range advantage, which is just an awful effort at balancing on the part of Wargaming... really am disappointed there, but hey what to expect..

The Bismarck & Tirpitz have on the contrary been underestimated for a long time due to the lack of knowledge on German wartime radars, esp. by the British who mistakenly thought that the Germans hardly used any radar. Only rather recently has research revealed that not only did the Germans extensively use radar on their surface vessels, but for a good while they were also ahead in this area (being the only ones capable of blindfire for a long time) and actually only lacked behind periodically in 1943 until they catched up and matched the Allies in radar again in 1944. For more information: http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/4125-german-ww2-radarfcs-better-than-believed/ TheCinC, on 25 July 2015 - 03:06 PM, said: I actually took the trouble of trying to look it up, in Norman Friedman's Naval Radar among others. So far, I have found no evidence of this, although I am a bit disappointed in the level of detail of especially that source. Nevertheless, it seems to be quite the contrary, as I had expected. The Germans had a slight advantage in radar design at the start of the war, but all long-term research was stopped after war broke out. The Germans expected a Blitzkrieg (short war) instead of a Materialschlacht (war of attrition) and changed their research priorities accordingly. The Allies invested huge amounts of time, resources, manpower and money in research and came up with the magnetron, which worked on much shorter wavelengths. They ended up with radar small enough to be used for proximity fuzes, a secret that was kept in part by not using them in close proximity to land. Garzke and Dulin go so far as to say that "Bismarck could not use her radar for rangefinding." (Axis and Neutral, p 290) As far as I can tell Tirpitz didn't have vastly superior equipment, but I am having trouble finding specifics that quickly. Even though her equipment was upgraded, the same source (same page) is dismissive about it and, while an improvement, I highly doubt it would be on a par with what the Allies had at that stage. At close to medium range, in reasonable visibility it probably would not have mattered much, as long as the German optical rangefinders were intact, but during a night engagement, I'd choose almost any Allied ship over almost any Axis warship, with possible exception of the Japanese during the early stages of the war. Old book with a lot of outdated and wrong information. For an update: http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=6685 http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6757&start=15 http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=1724 http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=6680

The Tirpitz had just as good a set of radar equipment as the Iowa by 1944, infact the latest German FCR was slightly more accurate in range and the same in bearing accuracy. The Bismarck class also had a few advantages against the Iowa, such as better optical rangefinders (important for bearing, even when using radar), a higher rate of fire and probably a smaller dispersion due to the dual gun turret layout. But that would be about it, the Iowa was better in most other places, which isn't surprising considering it was a newer design.

Ingame vs real life:

Thing is MOA can't go down with range by that amount in real life, i.e. the dispersion ingame (left) looks like this by comparison to real life (right):

I am curious, how does dispersion work ingame? Is it like in real life where max dispersion is at max range, i.e. minute of angle? Or is the max dispersion the same at all ranges ingame? I am asking since I'm noticing some crazy dispersion at close range for some reason (esp. in elevation), ranges where you'd expect a 100% hit rate if indeed the ingame dispersion is based on minute of angle. In short if your max dispersion at 25,000 yards is ~277 yards (4 MOA), then that dispersion should drop to ~5.5 yards at 5,000 yards, PROVIDING the game adheres to reality on this point of course.

Hmm.. 60 m at 3 km is ~69 MOA, 230 m at 20 km is ~39 MOA i.e. if what you're saying is correct, then accuracy in terms of MOA actually gets worse the closer you get ingame. Something is terribly off...

I am curious, how does dispersion work ingame? Is it like in real life where max dispersion is at max range, i.e. minute of angle? Or is the max dispersion the same at all range ingame? I am asking since I'm noticing some crazy dispersion at close range for some reason (esp. in elevation), ranges where you'd expect a 100% hit rate if indeed the ingame dispersion is based on minute of angle. In short if your max dispersion at 25,000 yards is 277 yards (4 MOA), then that dispersion should drop to 5.5 yards at 5,000 yards.

Bismarck was in a continuous and predictable circle during her last fight, with each turret having to be continouosly trained to keep on seperate targets whilst relying on local FC - no central FC was used. All the while BM was being targeted by several enemy warships free to maneuver as they wished, providing maximum stability for their main artillery as well as relying on central FC. It's no wonder it ended as it did, infact under the circumstances it's a miracle it took the British so long to silence the Bismarck.

German vs British FC radar by 1944: German Range: 50+ km Range accuracy: 10-25 m Bearing accuracy: 0.05 - 0.1 deg British Range: 30+ km Range accuracy: 25-120 yards Bearing accuracy: 0.08-0.12 deg In addition to this German optical equipment was established as being capable of +/- 30 m accuracy in range out to ~30 km, whilst British optics were in general capable of +/- 200 y accuracy. Hence why I'm of the opinion that the Germans ought to be the "sniper" faction of the game, esp. seeing as the power of their main armaments weren't as high as that of later BBs such as the Yamato or Iowa, yet their FC was state of the art.