Redcap375

Got to be a Secondary build BB. No one wants to push a secondary build Kurf, Gne or Massachusetts if they really have too. Nearly all of my games won in the Massachusetts involves being close to a cap or flank and holding it down. The arcs on it's secondaries is great from shooting over low hills that dd's love to hind behind. The enemy cruiser might be holding the cap but doesn't last long with 27 mm of secondary pen spewing at them. Even more so with the Kurf or Gne with IFHE (to hurts BBs too). So your ensuring that the enemy dd isnt gonna have any support when they try to cap. The only catch is if the DD sneaks in as you have no radar. So hopefully you have a friendly DD going in too. Your secondaeis and AP BB shells make the difference in any 1 vs 1 DD cap competition. Many many people don't expect BB's to push to a cap that quickly in the game. Not into it mind you, but island hugging enough to support but withdraw if needs be. Plus your doing a job of a BB...Tanking for the team. Far too many games where cruisers are doing all the tanking because fat lazy Battleships players are popping away on the a line. Their the ones that are normally left at the end on full health then die quickly to concentrated fire. GOD THAT DOES MY HEAD IN Shimmy (torp boats in general) are great ones too.

Of all lines i personally find the DD's the hardest to get to grips with. CV play is the hardest skill wise IMHO, but DD's are by far the hardest of the other lines. Until now i've been kinda just having a go here and there in them but not really getting to grips with them as my 52% DD WR shows, compared to lets say my 60% in BB and 65% in CV's. But i will really try and get to grips with DD play regarding the RN line. 4 out of 4 at the moment for the Acasta which i got via a box. It hardly sets the world on fire but i really like the way the smoke works in it. Short time smoke but plenty and fast re-load. Do other seasoned DD players think the same? Or will this go against it in later tiers? I like the way it goes around cap contesting. If things go down hill fast you can pop smoke and re-locate but because it reloads so quick, before you know it your back in the cap. That's if you havnt already killed the other DD which the Acasta is more than capable of doing. Not a fan of having the same torp distance as my concealment but it's usable. I either wait until i know they will get in range when i fire my torps or i use them to torp anyone that pushes the smoke. Also throwing them into other smoke clouds as i'm normally that close to do so. Having no speed boost is a shame but workable and the single fire torps are quite nice as an area denial tool or against bow-on campers which one torps following the other. So far i've found that it's about having "Bottle". Knowing that you have a knife fighting ship so use it as one and go for those caps. Like i said it only tier 5 which is nothing and doing this in higher tiers is no doubt tricky, but i like it and think it's a average/solid DD. I think alot of DD players skirt around the map borders because they simply don't wanna get killed to early and don't want the pressure, mixed with a me, me me attitude. I personally think, and tell me if i'm wrong gents (DD players), but you need to take calculated risks, more so than any Cruiser and Battleship. One false move and your dead but one good risk and you have a cap. Very fine margins being a DD player and something i will hopefully get used to. Some of my clan mates don't like it but praise the tier 7 one.

IMHO the best perspective is always from the players that play all the classes equally IMHO. Even more so from good WR Solo players which are harder to find now-a-days. They are the ones that I take more notice of than any other and have done so since joining this Forum. The ones with no axe to grind so to speak. Being impartial is a very hard thing to do, true me. Harder than most people think because as humans we like to follow our emotions and defend what we think is our strongest hand. DD players will say one thing, CV players will say another. BB players will say all sorts of things but players that have played all the lines? They are the true mediators we need to take note of. What i try to think of more than anything is the new players that come into the game and to see things through their eyes. What they are facing now which most of us didn't at the start of this game, both open and closed? And It's a hard time for casual players in this game. People don't know what their classes do anymore and one false move, with all these gimmicks around, including the influx of radar, often results in their deaths. So...They...Play...Passive. No one wants to die early in a game and less people are taking risks. I have always said offensive smoke was the catalyst and was against it being used in an offensive way from the very start. One thing combated another, then another, then another to where we are now. Gimmick after gimmick like it's a given or something, forgetting that at it's core at the very start it was a "teamgame" where each class (only 2 lines at the start) knew what to do and what their roles was. All these gimmicks have done is made players more selfish. CB is the only sign of teamgame left which is why i'm still playing this game really. There a good bunch of lads too But like everything i suppose, it's just my opinion

Totally agree. It's all messed up and has been for a while. Gimmicks, OP ships, amount of radar and the like has turned the game on it's head. Ship classes arnt doing things they were made for. DD's arnt spotting, Cruisers arnt supporting, CV's arnt spotting and BBs arnt tanking. Offensive smoke was the start and it's snowballed into what we have now. DD don't wanna go into caps due to other DD's, radar and bloody hydro. Cruisers don't wanna support for fear of being blapped by more and more heaver shells from BB's or simply killed by IFHE dd's. BB's don't wanna push because of HE spam from behind a mountain and invis torp soup or IFHE dd's. CV's going out of their way to kill DD's It's gone well past the point of no return so just gotta roll with the punches or leave i suppose.

Hummm, running from a Cap in CB is one thing, trying to get back into it when the enemy holds it, is another. We ran a few Yue Yang for while but the deep water torps didn't help much on one vs one DD battles like the Z-52 did. I think both are better options but we manly fielded Gearing for some reason. Lack of Z-52/Yue Yang players in the clan i suppose. Our clan was training against another clan a few days ago and they used a Haru and Wooser smoke combo. Quite effective to be honest

Thought the Z-52 was/is a great CB ship? Cap contesting and all that jazz? ......Oh yeah i see, the Darling will slaughter them i suppose when they come out. Still time for them to balance it out you think?

Nearly all of my DD clan mates cant wait to use this baby in the next CW.

But that's whats happened and it's comical. The Kaba should have been the DD hunters hunter, the manly DD. It was a flotilla leader with the attributes of a light cruiser right? It should have been the best DD killer there is but one thing stood in it's way....Its god awful concealment. I mean when you have heavy cruisers that are nearly as stealthy then you know something is a miss. Just like BBs having less concealment than cruisers I would have made the Kaba with better concealment but with floater arcs and less fire chance, so they cant spam shells at a longer range. Able to completely desecrate DD's and give another light cruiser a run for it's money if not outright kill it. I would also have increased it's torp range too to off set it less punchers guns against CA/BB's and also made it slow and turn slower so anything bigger than a light cruiser (CA and BB) can reliably hit it. That's the price the ships would have paid in my book for being a prime evil DD/CL hunter. Unlike now that due to the stigma and reload on some BB's it's nearly an impossible to hit this dancing fairly. Since when do Russians do anything that doesn't include blunt force trauma? The Kaba should have been the same kinda thing. Barge into a cap and exterminate anything within it but gets smashed by bigger ships and turns like a brick (see Moska turn). You cant even hunt DD in the thing as the whole world sees you coming a mile away. Radar would have been it's worse enemy unlike now when you don't need it to find them as their already spamming you with HE. And no i don't blame them, you use the tools you are given at the end of the day. But then i wake up and think of Russian bios that destroyed games like WT (so funny it's priceless) and WOT. So the Kaba turned from a supposed DD/CL killer to a long range BB/CA spammer. Go figger.

So do I shippers, so do I

How can you keep the 5.4 second HE spam, good fire damage Des Mons out of that list? You kill Kurf by progressive damage, not actual damage most of the time Unlike a Yam that you can Cit with a cruiser or any ship covered in 32 mm that can killed by raw damage. A Des can tank the Kurf AP shells all day long when angled.

50 mm of deck armour is fantastic...Unless your seeing two groups of US AP bombers swooping and cit that lovely deck armour. Or those 15 torps from that shimmy you cant see unless you pop hyrdo or have it one hand. It's got an god awful Torp belt armour and a few torps can wreck it. Guess what there is alot of in tier 10 games? Long range invis spam torps. Or what about that massive superstructure asking to be set on fire (2 centre sections are huge). And again, guess what tier 10 has an abundance of? Long range HE spam from not only cruisers but BB's too. All other tier 10 ships are better at not "keep myself from yoloing" then the Kurf. IMHO. As for secondaries, ONLY if you spec for it (IFHE). Lower caliber secondary guns cant pen bigger ships without it. So in doing so your sacrificing tanky builds with FP. The accuracy at long range isnt good, evermore so with a secondary build as you equip the secondary mod instead. See how many times you get into secondary 11.4-6 km range (when fully spec of course) of cruisers in tier 10 matches. moskva's will be in orbit, Des cuddling a rock somewhere bow on, the Zao doing more kiting then an actual kite and thrown the occasional 12 km invis torp for good measure, the Mino if you ever have a chance to actually see him or his 10 x torps and the Wooster (lol) who is normally having a cigarette behind a rock spamming HE death with his thick side armour (really tank for a light cruiser don't you think?) I know its abit of a joke but it's kinda whats it's like from a Kurfust BB captains perspective. Other ones don't have to worry as most don't even get into that kinda range. It's called camping and the Kurf is CRAP at it. Oh and it gets spotted from the MOON. I loved this ship, i really did and to an extent, still do. It''s my highest damage BB ever, but that was many moons ago when having a good old scrap was still a thing. It's the tanky ship and can take a pounding by cruisers (cant pen 50mm), BB's (very good side armour against AP) and even the Haru (cant pen the deck armour) . But in this Meta the strengths are slowly stripped away. Best to deal with HE meta??? There called Yam's and Republics that can pen any cruiser Bow-on. Plus he can do this in the safety of his campsite in row A. That's not including the legendary mod. Or a Conq that can cit a cruiser bow-on with HE or just set him on fire and do pure damage. HE spam meta is WG doing, no one else's. There is a reason why it has the lowest average damage of all tier 10 BB's. Because it needs to get in closer to unleash it's potential. Not that many games that alow you to do that sadly. Again, it's not a bad tier 10 ship at all, it just suffers in this meta.

Ok.... Lets take the Kaga for example. It's an OP ship that's for sure, no arguing about that one. But that too also has weaknesses. But that does not make it any less of a OP ship. But what both have in common is it's unnatural FIRE POWER. The Harugumo is a DD that can seriously hurt both BBs and cruisers with guns only, not to mention the 6 good torps it has...It can pump out alot of fast, fire stating shells with IFHE that can pen 32 mm of armour. For a DD that is crazy for a start and is wrong. I think deep down, even DD main's would agree with this. Torps to kill BBs? Completely Fine. Fire to kill BB's? Completely fine. But raw HE spam that can directly damage BB's is in a different leaugh all together. We are not even taking into consideration the 1x6 torps, at good range and flooding chance. Which make the likely-hood of anyone trying to rush the smoke foolhardy. We are not even taking into consideration the smoke it uses to pump said shells into the pinata of the enemy ship. A Bow-on Des Mons gets owned by a Harugumo frequency. 1/3 of his fire power is useless and other other half is trying to hit a moving DD with floating shells , if he can see the DD at all that if hes on cooldown or ran out of radar. Where the Haru only need to aim and shot, maybe guess if the Des is moving backwards trying to get out of the way of the torrent of incoming penning HE shells on his 27 mm of useless deck armour. Hummmm. The Kaga has slow, weak, wet cardboard planes that when up tiered gets obliterated. However, due to it's shear amount of Torps bombers it can pump out and torps in the water, it's a monster. In tier 5-6 games it's a joke. Really a joke, and only the presence of a good CV captain can limit it hard. The harugumo is weak HP (compared to other DD's), Slow and turns like a brick. BUT the strengths when played by a good player triples, just like the Kaga! It doesn't even have to worry about being up tiered for god sake. So any poor git of a tier 8 crusier / BB will feel alot of pain from a simple DD. And don't say you cant compare a DD to a CV because you can. It's the same principle but executed differently. Don't even get me stated with the Conq. Another example of amazing 1/4 HE Guns that has amazing FIREPOWER with it''s weakness of HP (see the similarities here?) and poor armour. But off set by it's crazy beyond measure heal and cruiser like (lol, lol) concealment. The Hagu massive strengths are massive. Being able to outgun a cruiser or outright kill a BB with guns only is far beyond what a DD's role is in this game and RL. The Kaba set the tone but isn't OP due to the fact that it cant pen 32 mm of armour (1) so relies on fires (2) 3/4 dont use smoke (3) and (4) has very short torps that cant fire from invis. All four of which isn't a problem for the Haru. The Kaba concealment is even high then the Haru? So anyone who thinks this ship isn't in the OP category, IMHO, is in cuckoo land. The Belfast is an OP ship The Conq is an OP ship The Kaga is an OP ship The Starlingrad is an OP ship (my god is it) The Saipan is an OP ship ect... THIS IS AN OP SHIP I too had the pleasure of being gunned down in a BB by a Harugumo. But in the Conq (another OP ship). Now i know that i healed up most of the damage and quickly hid behind the nearest island , but wow did he strip my heath to half very quickly. Did his weakness stop him from doing that? No, because he was in smoke and sometimes ladies and gentleman you will be in a unfavourable position trying to drag a game back from a complete lose. Teamwork is all but dead in random battles and for a BB to push takes some balls in this game. With the amount of HE spam, torps, cruisers that are really BB's and planes they are becoming more and more inclined to actually push. This is becoming a problem, especially in new players who see it before their very eyes. Most of us still remember the past and some need to open their eyes as are their still live in it. I absolutely loved to push the Kurfust many moon ago. But pushing now in that thing, without support (which is few and far between) is crazy. Ships like the Yang and the Conq and general HE spam / camp fest at high tier have made that a past memory. I hardly take it out now-a-days. The Yam, Conq, Rep and Monta are better suited to the Meta. See we are asking BB players to push and tank damage....But then they suddenly they come across a IFHE Haru that smokes up and beats you like a dog until you get close enough for him to torp you from point blank range?? If left with no choice i would push a Shimmy, Gearing even a Kaba out of someone else's smoke but not a Haru. Because I know that by the time i have crossed 12 km of no-mans land i'm 3/4 dead already. Run away? Ok, i'll turn this BB and in the mean time i'm eating HE pen shells. Providing he gives me the luxury of engaging me from his max range. He might not be so kind and smoke within 8 km and watch me try to hop-step it out whilst all the time he's direct damaging me with pea shooters! Or he could just Spam you without smoke of course and if RNG isn't blessing these 28-30 sec reload guns, your dead within 2-3 salvos from pure and unrefined damage. Trying hitting a Haru in a Alabama at 8km+? Wow, it's a sight to behold. There not Moskva laser MDK shells ladies. I am not waving the BB flag as i play BB/CA/CV equally but IMHO is new breed is wrong and for once....I know...Am defending BB players. DD's are having a crap time with the amount of radar knocking around i know and I empathise, but this is a step too far for a little DD.

Thanks..Was just gonna ask how to play RN DD's Got the tier 5 one in a box yesterday and after 5 years I'm finally gonna give a DD line a proper go! 2 wins so far, both down to outright bullying the other dd's within the caps and spotting for the team after.

I was about to write the reasons why i think team play has all but gone and hows it's changed since the old days, but.... The smoke mechanic always springs to mind first and foremost for some reason. I always felt this should have been used DEFENSIVELY not Offensively. I think that changed the mindset of not only DD players at the time but all classes. This then had a knock on effect that caused the creation of hydro and radar in the game. That then split the ones with smoke and the ones without smoke and so on and so forth. It made people think more "offensively" and as a result, more independent. They gave the ships more and more gimmicks in order to be independent and go "solo". Now in a WG game that might be precisely what is required by the company to make money, which is fine. But as a result it's took the teamwork away from the game, bit by bit. They choose to go in that direction where they could have enforced teamplay more, not less like they do now.

Prime example last night: Tirp and Me (Massachusetts) pushing into the top cap on TWO BROTHERS (one with the slip in the middle island). We had 2 cruisers behind us which was fine as we said in chat that we are tanking forward. After both the Tirp and I killed 2 a peace (smash and grab tactic), we left the enemy with a single ship, a DD, to our north. The other 2 enemy remaining ships (2 x BB) were on the opposite cap. So...I said can one of the cruisers hunt down this DD (Edinburgh and Mog). Did they listen? Nope... They both steamed down the centre of the islands leaving us with a invisi torp DD knocking around. One cruiser got stuck and the other one got annihilated by a salvo as a blind man could see the BBs were waiting for them.. Now me and the Tirp's had to weave in and out for ages dodging torps trying to hold the cap that would win use the game. A game that we could have won 3 mins ago if it wasn't for these dummy cruisers! Summary 1) Both didn't understand what their ship was designed for? 2) Neither could read the map (as they should have seen the BB's waiting for them) 3) Neither knew the tactical situation of the moment. I.e "don't die" and win, easy. This sums up the "casual players" that play this game to me. All they want to do is shoot s*** and that's it. Nothing can be done about this i know, and this isn't going to change anything but i wanted to highlight that these are the sort of players WOWS are attracting. And IMHO it's getting worse. I want to understand why it's getting worse, that's all. If either of them had a shred of "Teamwork" in them, they would have hunted that DD down, simple.

And they act like sheep. Blindly following eachother and then went they see signs of danger they freeze, like frightened ship. You get the occasional sheep that attempts to break out but he gets slaughtered by the pack of wolves. The rest look on in horror. *sigh* What happened to teamwork? I mean really what happened to it in this game.... Was it the introduction of gimmicks? Or premium ships? or strong AA and lack of Cv's or the other way-around (beta)? Or steam that brought more "casual players" into the mix? If it wasn't for CW and the Teamplay it brings (Div's too) I wouldn't be playing this game i think. It's not all doom and gloom, but teamwork has all but evaporated in randoms. Wasn't always like this IMHO. If you have brain-dead DD captains that are drawn to radar like a moth to a flame...You loose. If you have scard BB captains that refuse to tank and scratch their paintwork....You loose If you have cruisers that wont support either of those classes including CV's....You loose If you have a bad CV captain that doesn't spot....You loose more often than not. People have lost sight of what their classes are there for and how they help the TEAM. It's all solo play now and pure damage is top of the me me me list.

Held a whole flank in my tier 8 Massachusetts yesterday against 5 ships, all but one of them tier 10. Even killed 2 (Zao got full broadsided ). Tanked a shed load of damage and stopped them from pushing into the cap for AGES. Did our team take advantage of this? Not in the slightest. They all sailed to the other cap and when up against 3 enemy ships....They stalled, camped and stayed their until the game ended with a lose. They got surrounded believe it or not Not only is individual skills lacking but peoples map awareness is shocking. Not to mention a complete lack of teamwork and thought of tactics. It's all me me and me. The gap in WR and stats between the two teams were also really bad. People huddle together when they haven't got a clue what to do, it's human nature.

Mixed bag this weekend but i do truly believe the level of competent captains have gone down alot. Teamwork has all but evaporated and the things some people do to throw matches is unbelievable. Either you smash the enemy team or you get smashed, very little close games now-a-days. Those that loose the DD's first normally lose and the level of some DD players have been shocking. But it's not a easy job in this game now so i sympathise with them a bit. 3 friendly DD's dead to 1 of the enemies DD's in the space of 2 mins. We got smashed thereafter.

Sub hunting will be the DD's, Light cruisers, CV's and other sub's responsibly. Not just the DD's remember. God knows how they are going to do it but they will If it encourages team play then i'm all for it, but i have totally lost faith in team play in randoms.

Because of £££££££££££££££££££ Balance is second, RL is second, money talks. They can not afford to keep the game stagnate as more and more people are starting to find the game boring. They need MORE content or promise more content to keep the punters happy. This has always been the case regarding companies like WG. I am not surprised in the slightest regarding subs, even tho they said they were never going to do it A few more years (2) and we will have ship to ship missiles and cold war ships. I bet my mortgage on it happening.

The vast majority of Non CV players wanted this re-work and have hounded CV's from day one. So no complaining when this baby finally comes out in all it's glory. Sometimes it's better the devil you know.

Fair enough, lets give it time shall we. Ships like the Belfast, Conq, Kaga and Saipan are all still up there in the stats so that's reasonable. But i don't like the principal of "DD's beating up tier 10 ships with Guns only, on their own" thing. Doesn't sit right with me for a DD. Cruisers? Sure of course it's one of their jobs, but not the smallest ship class in the game. IMHO anyway.

Think of the casual WOWS player......Most WON'T steer the hell away from that. It smokes up within 7 km from the BB and starts to fire.... The BB turns around but has to run the gauntlet of 7 Km of DPM pen death with it firing 5 x 2 every 2 secs? Not including torps? This is not encouraging BB players to push and tank, only to camp back further and further. It's already camp city. Oh, it has it's faults like other OP ships. It turns like a brick, is slow and i have already sunk a few of them in my CV (it's extremely easy with that turning circle). But you don't need speed against a DD if you have already killed it with 10 secs do you . The Kaga has it's faults when up tiered (in tier 6 planes) and the Belfast can get closed down with no torps to defend it's self + it's squashy. But the fact that this DD can beat up any other DD in it's class, reliably kill cruisers (50 secs against a Moskva is but one example) and now pen 32 mm of Battleship Deck armour? It's too much power given to a DD. This is supposed to be the smallest class in the game? Yet this can reliably kill ships like the Lion, Iowa + Montana (bow and sturn), Republic, Alsace or anything plastered in 32 mm of armour or less. When a DD guns are doing more DPM then cruisers something it wrong. You can kill a BB in the same time it takes him to fire 2 salvos IF the BB can see the bloody thing in the first place (firing from smoke!) We are not even factoring the good torps it has that can STILL fire from invis. Good range and 6 of them too. I know, i know it's not RL but come on, a DD sinking a BB with only it's guns because of pure damage? Keep the Flood damage....Keep the Fire damage....Even keep the fire torps from invis like a DD should, but i think WG has gone too far with this one. It's another slippy slope. I understand that DD main players will want to defend this ship and i understand that, but come on lads, most agree it's Op. Cant believe i'm actually on the same side as BB players here but I am What would my mum say

Good write up and great advice. Refreshing to here that from an actual Haru player that both the ship and HE is OP. Both of my clan mates think the same.