FloRead

Is it worth losing that 1 turret to torpedo from stealth?

I would still take dogfighting expertise. There is the off chance that you might be paired up with a higher tier carrier. Your fighters will live slightly longer in such a situation, buying you time to drop your bombs/torpedoes. Can't see the other 3rd level captain skills providing as much value.

A few weeks ago, we were justifying how good our carrier captains were in the EU. I present this week... Asia stats ending Oct 3rd nation class tier name players total battles average of rates battles win draw lose exp damage caused warship destroyed aircraft destoryed base capture base defense survived kill / death point JP CV 9 Taiho 270 3254 12.05 49.04 3.24 47.72 3277 77005 1.01 22.01 0.16 1.09 73.24 3.60 31128 JP CV 10 Hakuryu 152 1811 11.91 41.76 3.39 54.86 3321 82321 0.98 27.25 0.09 1.05 67.80 3.49 27674 US CV 9 Essex 139 2410 17.34 48.18 2.60 49.22 3262 87685 1.22 21.77 0.06 0.63 69.68 4.49 33736 US CV 10 Midway 83 1593 19.19 49.62 4.05 46.33 3712 117361 1.47 24.19 0.06 0.76 73.28 6.21 36493 NA server nation class tier name players total battles average of rates battles win draw lose exp damage caused warship destroyed aircraft destoryed base capture base defense survived kill / death point JP CV 9 Taiho 131 1673 12.77 41.99 3.95 54.06 2528 79903 0.91 18.47 0.06 0.99 61.70 3.01 28095 JP CV 10 Hakuryu 73 860 11.78 47.73 2.37 49.90 2935 103164 1.01 22.81 0.05 0.98 61.93 3.14 28740 US CV 9 Essex 122 2089 17.12 50.10 3.98 45.92 2837 90230 1.24 20.02 0.10 0.71 67.61 3.92 33251 US CV 10 Midway 86 1426 16.58 53.30 3.88 42.82 3434 116455 1.42 21.62 0.03 1.76 66.16 6.05 32961 And finally EU nation class tier name players total battles average of rates battles win draw lose exp damage caused warship destroyed aircraft destoryed base capture base defense survived kill / death point JP CV 9 Taiho 147 1503 10.22 48.75 3.05 48.20 2928 72785 0.93 19.53 0.08 1.19 70.23 2.88 28361 JP CV 10 Hakuryu 85 741 8.72 46.45 4.63 48.92 3156 90646 1.05 19.95 0.01 1.94 65.76 2.92 25246 US CV 9 Essex 127 2742 21.59 43.74 2.02 54.24 2706 82989 1.16 19.03 0.12 0.51 63.86 4.18 32939 US CV 10 Midway 79 909 11.51 43.69 1.66 54.65 3258 103161 1.36 19.57 0.12 1.38 60.68 5.48 27290 First thing I noted. We have fewer T9/10 CV players and battles played compared to Asia, and just about comparable to NA, despite the total number of players being fewer in both Asia and NA compared to the EU. Secondly, our EU T9/10 USN CV captains are losing out in win rates, average damage, xp, ships sunk and airplanes destroyed as compared the NA and Asian counterparts. We don't even survive as well as our NA or Asian counterparts. On the other hand, our T9/10 IJN CV captains are putting on a good showing as compared to our NA and Asian counterparts, sitting in between their stats. Note: I'm a crap player and will always be a crap player. You can check my stats, they suck. What I'm disputing is that EU have the best. I don't see that happening. Note 2: The female mind in me wonders, are EU players deliberately suppressing their stats so they don't get Essex and Midway nerfed? I might have an Essex, but I think it's crazily too powerful. Edit and note 3: Stats taken from http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/index.html

Congrats to you too. You also showed how you don't comprehend the basics of statistical research. Like how there's a patch that heavily affected the balance and gameplay of CVs, thus skewing your statistics for the whole year? Like how each week has different events that affect xp gain? Like how avg xp is reported differently depending on how WG wants to present their stats on the player pages?

Forgot to mention where I got the stats from.

Ranger doesn't have a 2-1-0 setup. It either has the 1-1-1 or 2-0-2 which gives them 2 fighters and 2 dive bombers or 0-1-3, which is 1 torpedo bomber and 3 dive bombers.

If WG wants players to spread through the tiers instead of just packing the higher tiers, they could just institute a daily free repair like the daily spin bonus. 1 free repair per day so you can enjoy the high tier ship at least once daily, while going to lower tiers for the rest of your games. They can then raise the repair cost even more if they want, so only the best will play more high tier games.

Figment is suggesting that torpedo drops be made further than 2.5km from a USN carrier. Last I remember, IJN air dropped torpedoes have a maximum range of 2.0km. If you dropped more than 2.5km away, will the torpedoes ever reach?

How do you drop more than 2.5km? The max range of the IJN air dropped torpedo is 2km?

Well, Midway is OP. Look at the damage that Midway does on NA, EU and Asia servers. It consistently is the top in damage. No ship comes even a sniff near the Midway's damage output. So anything that will remotely even touch on any imbalances that the USN CVs have will all be drowned out until the cries for the Midway's nerf is satisfied.

Edit: Userext posted before me. I'll definitely lend my voice to the Tirpitz effect. EU CV players are not better definitely. It is definitely the effect of EU first getting a huge number of sitting ducks(read: Tirpitz) that was available for carriers to shoot.

Looking at this picture, you reinforce the fact that IJN CVs are still fine. So what do you want? Stronger fighters so you not only strike better but can kill the USN's fighters? Cake and eat it too?

Who is the natural predator for the Tirpitz? The 2 classes who are least represented in game......

Oh dear. Gets worse before it gets equal definitely.

I would actually put very little stock into the Xp earned. If you look at the average battles, the closer it is to 7.0, the more the ship was only used for its daily bonus. Given that the stats now reflect daily bonuses, premium, signals, etc, it can become artificially high. We also had the x2 xp end of summer weekend. Although it does show which ships players confidently know where to inflate their xp gains.

Asia server stats for week ending 12th September nation class tier name players total battles average of rates battles win draw lose exp damage caused warship destroyed aircraft destoryed base capture base defense survived kill / death point JP CV 4 Hosho 8791 64323 7.32 47.21 6.15 46.64 2085 34606 0.79 6.71 0.28 1.02 54.69 1.59 23469 JP CV 5 Zuiho 8373 66581 7.95 49.59 5.57 44.84 3846 37444 0.78 7.95 0.26 1.64 60.23 1.79 25657 JP CV 6 Ryujo 4028 41309 10.26 49.03 6.10 44.87 4359 35203 0.68 12.85 0.19 1.81 68.06 1.95 28735 JP CV 7 Hiryu 2118 25030 11.82 48.53 7.41 44.06 6286 43843 0.78 18.76 0.21 1.99 75.74 2.78 30863 JP CV 8 Shokaku 607 9608 15.83 46.02 8.34 45.64 6368 48613 0.75 17.31 0.13 2.57 74.79 2.82 31789 JP CV 9 Taiho 307 6838 22.27 45.19 8.46 46.35 7215 71946 1.08 22.80 0.18 2.87 73.94 4.62 34741 JP CV 10 Hakuryu 167 2803 16.78 42.10 10.31 47.59 11870 86317 1.11 26.25 0.16 3.15 69.72 4.00 32012 US CV 4 Langley 6223 47822 7.68 45.70 5.94 48.36 1691 24269 0.50 11.58 0.11 0.64 47.38 0.90 23239 US CV 5 Bogue 4551 40941 9.00 45.61 5.72 48.66 2325 20432 0.37 15.31 0.07 1.02 50.30 0.73 24754 US CV 6 Independence 1885 20858 11.07 46.21 6.23 47.56 3138 31956 0.58 14.08 0.39 1.47 68.18 1.82 28339 US CV 7 Ranger 684 11664 17.05 44.00 7.54 48.46 3627 39742 0.64 20.10 0.17 1.46 66.25 2.08 30688 US CV 8 Lexington 355 6086 17.14 44.27 8.15 47.59 4396 47808 0.66 28.36 0.15 1.92 73.83 2.87 31868 US CV 9 Essex 112 3115 27.81 44.18 8.92 46.90 5833 82339 1.12 21.07 0.13 1.72 70.79 4.67 34175 US CV 10 Midway 56 1647 29.41 50.21 10.93 38.86 10501 112558 1.51 26.92 0.19 3.93 74.00 7.09 38776 NA server stats for week ending 12 September nation class tier name players total battles average of rates battles win draw lose exp damage caused warship destroyed aircraft destoryed base capture base defense survived kill / death point JP CV 4 Hosho 5589 34718 6.21 50.85 4.54 44.61 1985 33637 0.76 6.44 0.32 0.98 53.83 1.41 23564 JP CV 5 Zuiho 4280 31293 7.31 52.19 4.46 43.35 3364 34329 0.71 7.91 0.31 1.21 57.45 1.46 25642 JP CV 6 Ryujo 2107 19608 9.31 50.44 4.62 44.94 4326 35306 0.70 11.49 0.24 1.35 66.32 1.81 28497 JP CV 7 Hiryu 979 10855 11.09 50.22 4.99 44.80 6133 43632 0.81 16.51 0.16 1.67 71.67 2.69 30882 JP CV 8 Shokaku 307 3672 11.96 46.32 5.79 47.89 8695 46506 0.76 15.86 0.18 2.06 69.57 2.40 28830 JP CV 9 Taiho 133 1976 14.86 47.37 5.52 47.11 8140 68629 1.09 18.95 0.09 1.66 70.63 3.83 32475 JP CV 10 Hakuryu 63 912 14.48 51.23 3.88 44.90 13794 85667 1.16 22.57 0.45 2.09 74.07 3.89 34432 US CV 4 Langley 12067 84181 6.98 45.74 4.80 49.46 1503 21287 0.44 10.62 0.10 0.62 45.16 0.74 22433 US CV 5 Bogue 8103 63907 7.89 46.79 4.55 48.66 2145 17418 0.33 14.11 0.08 0.91 46.73 0.61 24139 US CV 6 Independence 2994 31114 10.39 47.84 4.60 47.56 3030 29273 0.55 12.86 0.37 1.00 64.57 1.46 27879 US CV 7 Ranger 938 14642 15.61 46.04 4.57 49.39 3219 36910 0.63 18.12 0.11 1.13 60.53 1.76 30107 US CV 8 Lexington 323 4803 14.87 43.54 5.28 51.18 4221 38806 0.61 25.26 0.22 1.00 67.59 1.89 29460 US CV 9 Essex 100 2347 23.47 42.16 5.12 52.72 7343 76035 1.18 21.43 0.20 1.89 66.16 4.60 33451 US CV 10 Midway 48 792 16.50 54.02 4.28 41.71 11110 110067 1.46 21.88 0.45 2.23 72.44 6.47 38778 No EU stats yet, but the trend is clear. IJN CVs are not underperforming. Source: http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20150912at/average_ship.html - Asia stats http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20150912nt/average_ship.html - NA stats Forum myth 1: Langley fighters roflstomp Hosho and therefore owns the skies and Langley will always win. Hosho win% > Langley win% in both servers. Forum myth 2: Ranger is useless compared to Hiryu. Averaging the win% of both servers, Hiryu has a win% of 49.37% while Ranger has a win% of 45.02%, a difference of 4.35%. Useless? 4.35% is a matter of opinion. Forum myth 3: 2 US TB squadrons is OP and needs nerfing. What can I say, the damage stats says it all. Midway and Essex clearly outdamage the Hakuryu and Taiho respectively. By a huge margin in the Midway-Hakuryu pair. The Essex and Midway strike loadouts are the same, so perhaps it's a case of nerfing Midway's plane stats. Forum myth 4: US fighters are superior always to IJN squadrons. Looking at the aircraft destroyed, seems to be it. Forum myth 5: IJN CVs are dead, nerfed to oblivion, wiped from play, nobody left playing IJN CVs, (insert whine). No.

Yes, I clearly read what you said about AA, but the point you keep assuming is that the Independence can continually counter every single thing the Ryujo does. No, the Independence clearly cannot do that. It has loadouts which severely compromises what the Independence can do. Your argument continually circles around the fact that Independence can rule the skies, while having strong torpedo bomber power and dive bomber power. It's not possible for the Independence to do that. The Ryujo's setups can counter the Independence and counter it very well in fact. The reason I invite you to try USN carriers is simple, it is not an admission to IJN carriers being weaker. It is for you to see why people continually say USN loadouts suck. There's a good reason. Pre and post 0.4.1 patch, the USN carriers still suffer from the same problem: USN carrier loadouts suck. Now, if you think owning the skies is all important, remember which IJN loadout was specifically nerfed to the ground? The IJN strike loadout which contained 0 fighters. Why? USN fighter squadrons tearing up IJN fighter squadrons didn't just happen recently, it happened since....can't remember when. It has been this way since I played my first carrier. Yet IJN strike loadouts put out so much damage that they had to be nerfed into oblivion. Of course, one can argue that with a mirror matchmaker, IJN can no longer freely bomb with impunity, but any good IJN CV captain will tell you, it didn't matter that much with an USN CV in the opposition. Go 3/1/1 Ryujo. That's all I have left to add to this discussion.

There will be massive resistance to this. The Independence will also always strictly put out more damage than the Ryujo.

AA is universal, both USN and IJN deals with it. Both USN and IJN lose planes during the bombing runs. Every carrier has a different challenge when it comes to dealing with AA. USN does not have an easier or free ride against AA. Whether you have carrier opposition or not, there is nothing you can do about enemy AA. As for Ryujo vs Independence, I'm trying to tell you, the Ryujo 3/1/1 setup will beat the Independence easily in any setup. I witnessed it numerous times to know that. I'll even have you know that with my Lexington, it has trouble with Ryujo's 3 squadrons because that Ryujo captain tied up both my fighter squadrons with 2 of her fighter squadrons and panicked my TB squadron with her 3rd fighter squadron. She lost her fighters, but job done, my attack was interrupted. I now spend at least 2-3 minutes rearming and getting the next wave back out. While watching Ryujo's TB going through and torpedo my side. Depressing.

Well, I can see that none of my reasoning is going to convince you. There's only 1 last suggestion I have, why not play the USN carrier line?

First thing to remember, the Independence is either a 1/1/1, 2/0/1 or 0/1/2 setup. The Ryujo has a 1/1/2, 1/2/2 or 3/1/1 setup. Unless the Ryujo captain just bought her ship, they will all have the 1/2/2 or 3/1/1 setup. Ryujo 1/2/2 setup is a T6 equivalent of the USN T10 Midway's 1/2/2 setup. The Midway has to contend with a potential Hakuryu's 4/2/2 setup and yet a Ryujo has an Independence which has a potential 2/0/1 setup at best for shooting down Ryujo's planes. The major difference? The Midway's 1 fighter squadron will have a much harder time stopping the remaining 2/2 bomber squadrons of the Hakuryu than a Ryujo chasing down that 1 DB squadron of the Independence's air superiority loadout. Yet the Midway is OP as heck while remembering that the Hakuryu with its air superiority loadout still has 2/2 bombers to do damage with. The Independence by going 2/0/1 has no such damage potential. She will shoot a lot of Ryujo's planes down, but her 1 DB squadron will do pittance for damage. So long as even 1 of Ryujo's torpedoes hit, Ryujo will have done an average damage more than 2 DB bombing runs. If the Independence has a 1/1/1 loadout against Ryujo's 1/2/2, Ryujo's decision making is simple. Avoid the Independence's 1 squadron of fighters with the Ryujo's 2/2 bomber squadrons while deciding how the Ryujo's 1 squadron of fighters will nullify the Independence's 1 TB squadron. If Ryujo's fighters are always tied up by Independence's fighter squadron, leaving the Independence to bomb and torpedo at leisure, the Independence has outplayed the Ryujo because the Ryujo's fighter squadrons are faster. That 1/2/2 loadout for Ryujo is a thinker's loadout and it's extremely capable in the right hands. Ryujo's 3/1/1 loadout? This is the most common Ryujo loadout I see these days. I consider it the equivalent of the Independence's 1/1/1 loadout except, with 3 squadrons of fighters, Ryujo have the choice of deciding how Ryujo's 3 squadrons of fighters will nullify the entire Independence's air wing. Every Independence attack run will have to contend with 3 Ryujo fighter squadrons because the Independence has only 3 squadrons max. If the Independence has a 1/1/1 setup against a good Ryujo 3/1/1 captain, the Independence can never pull off an interrupted bombing run. If the Independence has a 2/0/1 setup, the Ryujo has 3 fighter squadrons to provide air cover to stop just 1 Independence DB squadron from doing any damage. With the 2/0/1 Independence setup, the Independence will be occupied with stopping your attacks and hunting your planes down. With Ryujo's 3 fighter squadrons, again you have 3 squadrons to tie down the entire Independence's air wing. A Ryujo played well will always have her TB and DB squadrons attack uninterrupted. Against the Independence 0/1/2 setup, again the Ryujo have 3 fighter squadrons to interrupt and panic all 3 of the Independence's bomber squadrons. If any of them drops their load uninterrupted, the Independence outplayed the Ryujo. And on the topic of AA. T5 cruisers get catapult floatplanes. T6 cruisers get catapult floatplanes and AA defensive fire. Most T6 captains have Advanced Firing Training, I get that too. So? This is a problem for all carriers, IJN or USN, to solve. Nobody is immune to it.

Yes, cruisers.

I mean a Ryujo air superiority loadout is just straight up superior to anything the Independence has. Ryujo 3/1/1 vs Independence 1/1/1. The Independence 1 squadron of fighters have no chance, and Ryuho will be able to spare 1 fighter squadron to hunt the Independence's TB and DB squadron. Ryujo's TB and DB squadron is free to roam because Ryuho can always lockdown and win Independence's 1 fighter squadron. Ryujo 3/1/1 vs Independence's 0/1/2. Ryujo's 3 fighter squadrons to panic Independence's 3 squadrons. Ryujo don't have to shoot them down even, the panic alone is enough. Or if Ryujo hates the US TB squadron so much, sic all 3 fighter squadrons on the TB squadron. Ryujo 3/1/1 vs Independence's 2/0/1. Contrary to what people think about IJN vs USN fighters, Ryujo's 12 planes can win Independence's 12 planes in the air. Ryujo's HP/DPS per fighter, 1150/41. Independence's HP/DPS per fighter, 1140/42. 12 Ryujo fighters means a total of 13800hp and 492dps. Independence's 12 fighters mean 13680hp and 504dps. Granted that the US fighters benefit from dogfighting expertise, the IJN fighters benefit more from fighter survivability traits here. Even if Ryujo spends all her fighters against Independence's fighters here, Independence's 1 DB squadron will never do as much damage as Ryujo's 1 TB and 1 DB squadron.

No, a Ryujo can lockdown an Independence using the 3/1/1 loadout and still have a torpedo bomber setup. The good Ryujo players have already figured this out.

The OP said 3 fighter squadron Ryujo setup. Once you take that into account, US 2 fighter squadron setup has Health: 12x 940hp = 11280 Damage = 12x35dps = 420dps IJN's 3 fighter squadron setup has Health: 12x 1150hp = 13800 Damage = 12x 41dps = 492dps I don't know how the dogfighting expertise works, but let's take your 15% bonus, 420dps * 1.15 = 483dps. The Independence's "air superiority" loadout will not win a Ryujo's. Take into extra account that the Independence has no torpedo bomber while using the "air superiority" loadout, while the Ryujo has 1 torpedo bomber squadron. Something to think about or continue to cry about IJN CVs being overnerfed.