eliastion

I'll tell you a secret. The skill of players isn't even taken into consideration by MM. MM tries to balence tiers and ship classes, that's all. It doesn't care who sails them. This results in two things: 1. It's fair, you don't get better opponents and weaker teammates just because you happen to be good. 2. It can lead to one team getting plenty of great players and the other - plenty of potatoes. It should be also noted that MM is pretty vulnerable to divisions - a division of good players can have great results and a division of baddies can drag down team after team by filling three slots with useless scrap metal that only looks like ships that could threaten the enemy. In the match you mentioned in the very beginning, you specifically met a t10 division with a carrier. That's usually a force that decides the match right there - but it's been like this pretty much forever, that's no new development.

The problem is that these "past" rewards aren't completely irrelevant for future rewards - after all, my Lightning could be waiting in one of these crates that WG now owes me! I want to believe.

You're under the wrong impression that R1 is "the top". No. R1 just gives you the best reward in WoWs but the category is exceedingly big. When I was performing my earlier analysis, there were more than 700 players at R1 already and the season isn't over yet. And it's not necessarily a bad thing - would you be happy if every second only around one hundred people per server could reach R1? Would you ever have the slightest chance of getting there? But you're not comparing R1 even to top 100 tennis players per continent - you're comparing it to top 10 worldwide. Don't you see that something's a bit off? Sorry, but WoWs Ranked isn't THAT much more competitive than pro tennis to warrant that comparison If you want to compare R1 to "top ranks" in tennis, go ahead, you can do it - but you need to pick a reasonably sizable "top". Say - first 1000 Ranking places. And - as you saw - there actually are people who literally spammed their way into top 1000, participating in tens of lower ranking tournaments, working their butts off, mostly losing too early to get any points at all - and only occasionally managing to get far enough to ultimately put together these 12 points that are currently enough to get a 3-digit ranking. Although, it should be noted, getting these 12 points definitely also required some measure of skill. But let me tell you a secret - the same is true for Ranked. The two very worst R1 players I found at the current stage of the Ranked season still had over 48% Random winrate. This isn't actually "bad". It's a bit below average - but not far below it at all. And across the couple hundred Ranked matches I'm quite sure that they had their share of battles where they actually played better than usual, were luckier than usual and carried hard - because that's what happens when a slightly below average player plays a couple hundred battles trying to do their best. And these better matches would be a nice analogy for these few tournaments where tournament-spammer managed to get a point or two These would've been the stars that decided that our two heroes actually did happily reach R1 before their next losing streak sent them tumbling down the ranks. PS: Double parners most definitely aren't assigned randomly. Getting carried by Nadal to a good spot in the ranking is more akin to getting carried by a good clan to get your Stalingrad flags, if anything.

Well, looking at the maps right now - WG realized that and stopped trying, the map are more and more symmetrical

As a DD main I propose limiting DDs to 3 per match and removing the 5 BB limit

I don't have much experience with Khaba vs Harugumo but I'd say you underestimate Khaba's tankiness. Khaba has actual armor that mitigates Harugumo's DPM and OP said that he generally tries to kite enemy DDs - and Harugumo should be very vulnerable to Khaba kiting. The difference in speed is insane, Harugumo heavily angled (to not loose distance too quickly) can fire like 2-3 turrets (there goes her DPM advantage) and as soon as Khaba manages to open some distance, Harugumo suddenly finds herself without even the ability to effectively trade damage because IJN 100mm guns have great velocity only on very short distances - as the range grows, the gun arcs get floaty and hitting a fast target like Khaba becomes an issue. Khaba, on the other hand, still enjoys flat arcs and relatively short shell flight time. The actual DPM advantage then goes to Khaba - and that's just considering distance, not Khaba being on the run and Harugumo chasing. As it is, Harugumo just can't chase Khaba - the moment the engagement starts, they basically both need to run away from each other because one needs distance and the other would like to get close but can't afford to chase. As a result, I'd expect Harugumo to quickly deal a bit of damage, but in the meantime Khaba is already disengaging and actually gets back at the opponent a little bit in the process. They each take some damage - Khaba probably a bit more but Harugumo doesn't have heal. If anything, I'd say that Khabarovsk is at a slight advantage in this match-up. At least when it comes to fighting, that is - Harugumo, despite bad stealth, still has a huge advantage over Khaba in this aspect. This, basically, lets her do the same thing every other DD does when they encounter a Khaba - spot and limit her options. With her stealth advantage, Harugumo is by design the side that decides whether to engage. Yes, there is SOME damage - but that's not really a bad thing for a ship that doesn't have HE at all while her main prey is the relatively nimble DD class. I've seen (and even played) Akizuki without IFHE and believe me - it's ridiculous how useless the AP becomes when the target angles. If a DD hunter were to use AP performing like this while not having any HE to switch to, the results would be INSANELY frustrating. And, let's face it, Daring's "natural prey" shouldn't be able to counter her main weapon so easily and to such degree.

If someone can pull of R1 by having above 50% winrate in Ranked then ~45% solo random is quite unlikely or not representative of the actual skill (say, a player that sucked for two years and finally decided to maybe improve a bit - and did so but in the meantime joined a clan and hardly plays without a division, leading to the Random solo showing only his inglorious past). Seriously, despite all the whining to the contrary, the average skill level in Ranked (at least in the 2-5 bracket) seems to be (predictably really, as imperfect as the progression mechanic is) leagues ahead of the average skill level in Randoms. When you add in the fact that in 7v7 every player's impact is amplified, it's quite hard to win without pulling your weight. Your fat stern constitutes over 14% of the team. It's not like there's no possibility of being carried if you suck completely - but that can happen in a couple matches, not in more than half of them (over the couple hundreds games that you'll need to rank out with low winrate and not-so-consistent star-saving). I doubt we're going to get any outliers removed so far from the expected skill level to get someone who both has 45% winrate in Randoms and actually deserves it in regards to their current skill.

It would be interesting to have a truly AP-oriented line of ships but Daring seriously needs some weaknesses to have that. Perhaps what we need is actually the RN cruiser treatment? Improved AP angles, huge AP DPM but no HE at all. Then it would make sense to have high-dpm gunboats with great concealment - they can ambush enemy DDs but aren't good at kiting or chasing because a DD that shows them stern and just tries to run away will bounce most your shells despite the improved angles. As Daring is now, she has everything and the only downside is speed... Anyway, I think we're going off topic. Wasn't this a Ranked Khaba thread originally?

I'm pretty sure that's actually misleading - no matter whose stats I look up, they tend to be lower than expected. This makes me think that the expected values aren't calculated for Ranked specifically - the site just uses the normal values that are appropriate for Randoms. And in Randoms there's obviously more ships to kill and more damage to farm - not to mention that the very playstyle is different (Ranked, as bad as it is with the "save the star" mechanic, is nonetheless more victory-oriented and less damage-oriented compared to Randoms).

Sorry, wrong number

Lol. Did you REALLY pick tennis as an example? Oh, it is glorious. Let me put you in the grave you've dug for yourself right there. First of all let me enlighten you about the way the tennis ranking works. You see, that thing is based on the points you get for scoring in tournaments. The bigger, higher regarded the tournament, the more it's worth to score well in it. And the differences can be huge, really - winning the big ones gives A LOT of points. Still, it's known that more persistent players, able to physically cope with more tournaments, can keep a rank well above their actual skill level by playing a lot of the slightly lesser tournaments where the competition is weaker and the points less generous but relatively easier to farm. And this can happen even in top ten - a player that really struggles to win against players of similar ranking when they meet in big tournaments but still doesn't really slip down - in no small part thanks to the points gathered elsewhere. The ranking in tennis is literally the effect of a year-long grind even at the highest level of play. And when you look at lower level, not just the top of the top? Let's go and dig a bit deeper, shall we? Position 267 in the global ranking - Goncalo Oliviera who played 42 tournaments, netting himself 197 points. Position 289 in the global ranking - James Duckworth after 10 tournaments that gave him 176 points Position 547 in the global ranking - Kristian Lozan with 36 tournaments and 60 points. Position 607 in the global ranking - Maxime Pauwels who participated in 30 tournaments and won staggering 46 points Position 632 in the global ranking - Paul Henri Mathieu played 2 tournamnents and gathered 41 points from them. Are you so sure their position in the ranking represents their skill and, say, Mathieu would be at a disadvantage in a match against Lozan or Pauwels? Are you so sure Oliviera plays this year better than Duckworth? And if you dig even deeper, to positions around 1000... it's a nice number, actually, because to be among the current best 1000 tennis players worldwide right now you need 12 points while 11 is out of this first thousand. And we have Sanhui Shin - 11 points across 3 tournaments Ewan Moore - 11 points in 4 tournamnets Jonathan Mirdha - 11 points from 9 tournaments Alexander Day - 11 points across 13 tournamnets Actually, there's twenty one players with 11 points. Sixteen of these twenty one have played between 10-20 tournaments - and failed to get into the top 1k players by ending up a point short for the most recent tally. And then there's this guy. Yan Sabanin - proudly one of the one thousand best tennis players right now. 12 points gathered over the last year by playing 35 different tournaments for an amazing 0,34 points scored on average per tournament. Frankly, I wouldn't be so sure he has more than 48% winrate this year Tell me more how spamming matches in Tennis can't make up for not actually playing well enough (or at least doing so with any consistency) So. If someone can outright grind their way into the best 1000 in competitive tennis - why is it so terrible that two people managed to grind their way into the best 700-800 (the numbers of R1 rankers when I was analyzing that data) of WoWs Ranked?

Blub blub.

When british DDs make it live, it would be easy - you just need Daring without IFHE. That thing can't pen anything and has good fire chance and rapid-fire guns - perfect for the job

Well. The camo now gives you better concealment - if that's not a stealth buff then I don't know what would count

Harugumo is one of the least affected by Daring's appearance. Kitakaze will suffer, yes, but Harugumo - not that much. She's the only one that can try dueling Daring and she doesn't rely on her stealth to survive. The DDs that will suffer are... well, every other t10 - apart from Khaba. The problem with Daring isn't the firepower - it's the fact that at t10 only Shima outspots her and only by a small margin too. Daring can use her stealth to ambush every DD in the game, she has Hydro to allow a fight at shorter ranges than other DDs can afford (due to torp threat) and she has more DPM than Harugumo. TL;DR: Harugumo (and Khaba) will be ok with Daring's arrival. RIP Shima, though. And woe to almost everything else too.

Actually, in this case we're talking coop and there are missions for british DDs - so everybody who got a DD out of container, has some underdeveloped captain on her and little idea of how to play (or interest in learning) but sees a mission to deal X damage in the thing... what do they do? Go to coop to safely copmplete the mission, of course! And here we are. It's not the popularity of british DDs as a new line (since they're not even out yet), it's the stupid idea of giving us missions that can only be completed in, say, that one random t5-6 DD that actually dropped out of one of the event containers if you were relatively lucky.

I demonstrated that - while not outright impossible - it still hardly ever happens. And 48% is just slightly below the average. When the "slightly below average" of one group is the absolute low-end outlier of the other, it's pretty clear that the second one is very strongly selected for their ability. Imagine you have a certain school. Over 700 people (well, it's a big school) got accepted into it. Of these 700 two managed to get accepted despite the burden of slightly below average intelligence when compared to the bulk of candidates - but they managed to overcome this by working extremely hard (and having a bit luck with what the questions were compared to what they studied). Of this you draw the conclusion that intelligence is largely irrelevant if you want to get into this school. Sorry, but that's just plain ridiculous.

And yet, as I demonstrated, there is. Damn. WG achieved the impossible.

Kaga's WR: 55,53% Harugumo's WR: 52,23% (still shortly after introduction) Do you notice the slight difference that might lead someone to the conclusion that while Kaga's weaknesses don't stop her from being OP the same doesn't necessarily need to be true for Harugumo? Oh, but to avoid comparing apples to oranges, let me list t8+ destroyers that perform better than Harugumo (I won't mention things like Black or Lightning that aren't normally available): - Chung Mu: 55,1% WR - Kitakaze: 53,79% WR - Yueyang: 53,61% WR - Z-46: 52,99% WR - Asashio: 52,26% WR - Kidd: 52,41% WR - Hsienyang: 52,4% WR - Khabarovsk: 52,35% WR Eight DDs better than Harugumo, insluding 6 silver ones. And unlike Harugumo, they don't get the "new ship, most potatoes didn't get to it yet" performance boost anymore, being out for quite some time already. With so many OP ships (if Harugumo is OP than so must clearly be a ship that clearly performs better) shouldn't you go complain about these instead? HArugumo is certainly a strong ship, ahead of the curve, but nowhere near as powerful or influential as you guys claim based on the fact that - gasp - she can hurt things. With guns. Nerf her to the ground, we can't have a DD capable of hurting things with guns. BTW, if you want to see a truly OP DD, wait for Daring - that thing is going to be a real monster. I expect her to have MUCH better winrate... and cause much less outrage because she won't be farming BBs or DDs but rather obliterating destroyers - this thing is going to be able to take on Harugumo in a gun duel while having better stealth than Yueyang. But it's ok comrade, her guns aren't all that effective against BBs and even cruisers!

Oh, these improved autobounces Harugumo has over DM on their HE Not to mention the clearly superior penetration of Harugumo's /4 HE 100mm when compared to DM's 203mm /6. Please stop. You're disgracing yourself.

The Ranked is frustrating because it's trying to put you in your place - and that includes pushing you down when you don't perform well enough. If you want non-frustrating Ranked, you need to eliminate the skill requirement for progression - and yes, your suggestions do that, you end up with what's essentially a long mission of "win X times" variety. But that's not exactly the point of Ranked, right? Ranked is supposed to depend on you actually proving yourself by winning rather than losing - and that requires defeats to be costly which, in turns, inevitably creates frustration when you lose (especially a couple times in a row). Winning streaks can get you well ahead of the expected speed of progression - or even past the place where your progression should've stopped based on your skill - so why should losing streaks be prevented from affecting you? No. You try to amplify effect by four times and you completely miss the point by doing so - because the way you do it, being among the 5 (or, worse, among the 3) becomes IMPORTANT. When it's 1/4 of a saved star, it's just a little bonus to the victory - it being hard to follow, not providing a direct, immediate and obvious boost to progression is the very point of doing it like this. You basically want this to happen with players mostly ignoring it. In fact, even this is arguably too much - but the stars do need to come from somewhere and rewarding everyone even if they were AFK or died within the first minute doesn't really sit all that well with me. The alternative would be to set a (quite low so that you need to really f*ck up to not qualify) XP requirement. Anyway, the point is to obscure the relation between getting XP in a match and progression. If you make it not a 1/4 of a saved star but a whole star - the impact is both heavy and obvious. You're giving back the reason to try and play for XP rather than focusing all your energy on victory - the resulting idea is almost as bad as the current saving of a star on defeat.

Actually, it does. If you're screaming like a banshee all the time, they are more likely to miss the moment when they really do something that truly makes you angry. Your pitchfork is dull from overuse and nobody treats it seriously if you wave it around over everything and you find yourself out of tools when it really matters.

The only DD that has relevant armor is Khaba. Harugumo is like the rest of them. Also, Harugumo is actually only the third best performing DD on t10 - the first two being Yueyang and Khabarovsk. The order is the same on NA. On Asian server the first two spots also belong to other DDs but the order goes Yueyang>Z-52>Harugumo. The only server where Harugumo actually manages a higher winrate is RU but it's either incredibly unpopular there or there's some problem with the data since it doesn't seem right for her to have less than 9k battles on the most populated server when the relatively tiny Asia gets over 25k, NA over 40k and EU well over 56k - all that suggests that the data from the one server that actually seems to conform to your belief is also the least reliable. So no. Harugumo does not outperform other DDs her tier. She outdamages them, yes. She gets more kills, yes. But that's kinda to be expected when we're talking a ship that has one defining feature within her class: the firepower. While she's strong in her specialty, however, she sucks in other things enough to stop her from having the kind of impact you believe her to have. In fact, the t9 Kitakaze is actually a scarier ship. And, while we're mentioning t9 already - the humble Chung Mu trumps them all by a wide margin. Harugumo is strong, don't get me wrong - there's no doubt that she sails proudly among the strongest. But if you really want to claim that she's THE best and outperforms all her peers... you'd really do yourself a favor by first making sure that the actual stats won't leave you looking the fool there.

I do. I'm a magical man that knows that you've just made these "saving a star on victory and talking about it" people up. Where was I ever saying that it's a tactically good idea?

Actually an IJN torpboat going wide for unexpected torping angles is a valid tactic in a DD-heavy match - especially if your team has some strong cap contenders and both sides are backed by heavy Radar presence. This will get worse with british DDs because while normally IJN torpboats can afford to meet enemy DDs due to their stealth, this won't be the case anymore - Daring is especially ridiculous in this aspect - she has very tiny gap between her concealment and Shima's, she has decent hp and better DPM against DDs than a Harugumo (yes, really - she has comparable HE DPM and low caliber AP with improved bounce angles - so they arm on DDs and pen them reliably). And then there's hydro to chase into smokes without fear of getting torped. This is an enemy that an IJN DD just can't afford to meet - so they will just do whatever they can to avoid the encounter. What's depressing, however, is when DDs (and not just IJN torpboats) end up going wide in matches that nave relatively few DDs and relatively weak Radar presence...