eliastion

The reality of these two tactics is: - they are easy - they are safe - they are (certainly the torpedo soup one) frustrating However, they are not very effective. You're basically giving up a lot of power in return for easy safety. Yes, you can get some effects (especially if lucky with the torp spoup) and you certainly will be more effective than someone who treats flak as collectibles (catch them all!) but that's like saying that spamming torps from maximum range is an effective way to play a DD. You won't die, yes, but you shouldn't expect much effects either... Now, as for the future of the game - I do expect WG to address both these strategies in the future. Not because they are overpowered but because they are easy to pull off and very frustrating at the same time. I don't know what's going to happen with Haku's 4-TB configuration (this one is hard to tweak to still allow for long-range torpedo drops that are the point of this set-up) but I expect that we'll see a significant post-strike delay on the "return to base" button, or perhaps the time it takes to climb is going to be extended (but I doubt that one - autopiloted planes climbing slowly within any flak-capable AA would be dropping like flies and making F into a "now lose all the remaining planes" button isn't what they should aim for either). So, I expect a delay to make an appearance. As for torps... well, as mentioned - I don't know what WG will do. I actually consider it pretty likely for them to discard this loadout entirely. Problem is: it's a hard configuration to use for the intended purpose (long-range drops on slow-moving or even stationary targets) but extremely easy to create a torpedo soup that still does SOMETHING. And a torpedo soup - even if you could play the ship causing it in a more optimal manner - is just unwelcome. It's something we've figured out a LONG time ago in this game. Unfortunately, the devs seem to have missed this potential in Haku's 3x4 TB squadrons. And even if the torps don't hit all that hard and the flooding is about to get nerfed to oblivion (not to mention that this actually nerfs the proper use of CV torps more)... something still needs to be done about this. Long-range torping rewarding godly "lead eye" from the CV player and punishing predictability (nevermind actually sitting still!) from the target is a nice thing but I don't really see how it could be salvaged without allowing this abomination of a strategy presented by IChase to thrive as well.

The only thing relevant to countering skillful cross drops is DFAA for the few DDs that had it, really. They couldn't be dodged (that's the point of a cross drop), sticking with AA ships is not unlike sticking with the fleet now, smokes still work - and yes, the fact that the CV doesn't dev strike you any longer does matter, A LOT. While I'm enjoying my new toy right now and while I do consider current DD situation pretty bad AND I consider current CVs too powerful against DDs, the main reason why DDs are so pitiful is not due to the patch giving CVs more power against DDs but rather due to the inevitable CV wave tsunami that came with the rework. If I were to be playing DDs exclusively and had to pick: - current situation or - as many CVs as we see right now but with old mechanics I'd pick the current situation in a heartbeat. As bad as it is, the alternative (old CVs in every match, two t8-10 CVs per team in a match) would be worse. Perhaps he played too much CVs and got too emotionally attached to the name of an old tactic

RPF isn't really a good pick on planes, though. While it can make it easier to set up the initial attack, the act of finding DDs is actually easy enough with the built-in 6th sense you get for free. Basically (at least on IJN CVs with stealth build) you tend to spot ships before they spot your planes. All, that is, other than DDs. This makes the concealment radius of your planes a DD detector. Your planes got ship-spotted but you don't see any cruiser or BB? You've just located a very approximate location of some enemy DD. Now you just need to do a little bit of flying around (based on common sense about where the DD might be going) and you usually find the little bugger right away. Which makes me think: perhaps planes don't really need to have "situational awareness", at least for free. They are stealthier than most ships, they aren't as f*cked as a DD spotted without realizing and they are very fast. I don't think they really require that extra bit of information that basically only helps them against the class they are very dangerous against anyway. Actually, shooting down planes is meaningful... but it's not really something you, as a DD, need to care about. You won't shoot down any reasonable amount of them, at the very least not while alone. Still, when it comes to being the target of a CV, currently the situation is arguably better. Although it depends. Old system: a potato CV is basically harmless to you. He won't hit you with torps, he won't hit you with bombs and he won't be smart enough to put a squad on your head to spot you. An average-skilled CV player will have problems dealing damage to you but he will permaspot you when needed. However, when you meet a good CV player? You're dead. The first sortie that goes after you means a cross-drop that outright kills you or, in best case (for you) cripples you and then spots for a couple shells to finish the job. New system: the better the enemy, the more damage you'll suffer but it's very unlikely to get completely wrecked in one sortie and while the next one comes to shower you with fiery love won't leave you waiting long, you are generally able to retreat towards the allied AA. So, you're more screwed when meeting relatively poor CVs (but they shouldn't be THAT much of a problem, they're the poor ones) but you should be better off when meeting the really good ones. It will still hurt (they are good, remember) but you won't just be instantly deleted just because they found you. Personally I think this is an improvement. Bad CVs being less useless against you and good CVs being less instantly lethal is a good change. CVs are a tad too strong against DDs in general, but that can be somewhat addressed through balancing changes. The "old" situation wasn't salvageable through these methods - you couldn't make unicums less lethal and there was no viable way to make potatoes become a threat. It SEEMS like this should be the case but in practice doesn't really seem to be working this way. Well, maybe the gods of lead capable of stealth-torping a moving cruiser with Haku's 4-TB strikes can perform a feat like this with any level of consistency. My experience so far seems to imply that, in reality, each torpedo strike is an individual attack rather than part of anything truly resembling cross-drops of old. Imagine old IJN CVs and "cross drops" where you control only one TB squadron at a time, drop the torps, wait till they hit the water and only then switch to the other, calling it from where it was idly circling over a nearby island. Yes, the old torps are in the water and have quite a distance to go before they disappear. Yes, you technically have some options to use these previous torps to set up the attack with the other squad. But it's just not quick or coordinated enough to really hope for much effect by doing things like this - at least not when your opponent is something with DD-grade handling. Just because you see a couple sets of torpedoes in the water going from different points and crossing their paths somewhere doesn't yet mean that the result is worth being called a cross-drop.

Top of the screen, just to the right of "Battle" button. You need to pick "co-op" or "Ranked", no CVs on the enemy team guaranteed (in the second case even on your own you won't see any)

Whoa, I can actually correct you on something related to CVs The consumable actually increases both continuous AA and the damage from flak. Of course, someone still needs to get caught in the explosion and the consumable doesn't even increase the number of bursts your ship spawns.

If I'm not mistaken, Atlanta's problem is that now ships have separate short/mid/long AA. And Atlanta has good long-range AA but underwhelming short range. What it means is that she's a powerful addition to a fleet's AA but not quite as adept at self-defense. Which kinda sucks because she has many problems and powerful AA was always one of her perks, that now became much less versatile... Also, the AA rework made it so that grouping up is more important because it saturates the air with harder to predict and nigh-impossible to dodge flak, something no single ship, no matter how powerful in AA department, is capable of doing. If it serves you as some consolation - all this is still in the testing phase, so there's a good chance that "has been" AA monsters will get some love in upcoming patches.

I'm just thinking how much of a struggle it is to maneuver all these slow propeller planes sometimes - and I try to imagine how jets would handle by comparison...

Well, apart from it not being actually brainless... sure, that's my plan I do hope they tweak a lot of things, though. There's a big improvement over the old gameplay (although, of course, that one had their fans like you - which is unfortunate since, well, something they liked got removed), but a lot of glaring problems as well. Most likely because old CVs were less relevant than the basics they covered first AND when they started putting up these videos, the rework was already well under way. Most likely they didn't really feel the need to make a video explaining mechanics that were about to be removed anyway.

Aaand you just keep on disgracing your primary school math teacher. Shame. As for the first part, well, I won't deny that I'm taking the easy way out. Once I realized how basic are the things you don't understand, I've given up on trying to explain anything anymore to you Also, since this is getting further and further off topic, so if you want to keep making a fool out of yourself, you're gonna to have to do it without my further input, sorry

(...) Great. Now you no longer just lack the grasp of distances within the game - you have problems with what a radius is as well. And what it means when you have two circles with one's radius larger than the other and try to fit one inside another. Think long and hard, maybe you'll get it. You can also consult a primary school level math book or something? Just a thought. I'm too tired to discuss with yo at this point - I assumed that elementary school math isn't beyond you; seeing how I was wrong about this... let's just end this pointless squabble because it's clear that nothing good will come out of it.

Actually, yes, I do like that idea more... Or rather - I dislike it less. It's not as bad as blinking/impossible to attack other than blindly DDs but, on the other hand, I don't think it really solves the main issue. It would certainly help DDs, but the main problem with current rework and DDs seems to be how effective CVs are at constant harassment with rockets. Rockets are very good (although it's still an improvement over the "a unicum CV wants you dead, prepare for the crossdrop you can't do anything about" of old) and the planes are back FAST after making their first attack. I'm a bit more cautious with talking about unplayability. Currently we're still in the midst of the Great CV Wave. And, as you say, the current sad state of DDs has a lot to do with the fact that there are few matches without CVs and many with two per team. I do believe we should get the 1 CV/team limit but even without it, we're bound to see the population stabilizing at a much lower level, creating a situation where 2-CV per team are a rarity. Now, as for how DDs need to cope with there being a CV or, especially, two CVs per team. First of all - the early capping isn't really viable in this meta. If a DD wants to move into a cap, this requires much closer support than before the patch. Going solo, far from allies, into a big circle that kinda advertises "hey, there's a lone ship with mediocre AA doing something tactically important over here"? Not the best idea. And even when capping is an option (usually because some ships with better AA have pushed in closer or you REALLY want that cap and have a long-lasting smoke to help you survive while no Radar ships seem to be in the vicinity), many DDs do a big mistake of shooting and keeping their AA on while enemy rocket planes close in - all that while trying to pull off a smoke cap. Problem is: rockets, especially not fully aimed rockets, are a scatter shot. And both shells and AA give away your approximate position within smoke pretty well. And... well, it just takes one or two rockets nicking your hull and all the effort on capping goes to waste - while the smoke does NOT last forever. I do believe DDs are playable even now, but it's certainly much harder and the impact you have is lower - because you need to be much more cautious (though probably not as cautious as when playing against a unicum CV pre-patch). Oh, and - as always - some DDs fare worse than others, of course. Say hi to IJN torpboats. These guys, as per tradition, I guess, get the short end of the stick. The "planes no longer spot torps" is nice, but it doesn't help much when you're a squishy low-hp target that needs to get close to enemies from a good angle to set up the perfect torpedo attack. The "no lone wolf" rule is pretty damn painful for these guys. Well, I'm obviously part of the CV wave Shiny new toy, you know? Still, I did play whole two matches in Kitakaze, that's, like more than 10% of my matches this patch And with 100% winrate at that! But when I was bringing up myself being a DD main, I mostly wanted to make a point of my sympathies - I like DDs and I most definitely don't want them dead As I said. If you believe "not easy" cuts it, you have no grasp of distance in this game. To put it in a way that might let you understand: the only reason why I don't write "it's literally impossible" is because there might be a plane in the game capable of achieving a turning radius lower than 0,5km (without the help of the border that can redirect your planes away in a super-sharp turn). I know for a fact that my Haku's planes can't turn that tightly (not even close). I haven't really played much with the lower tier CVs, though, so I can't be sure if their slower planes are equally incapable of performing a circle with radius below half a kilometer. HOWEVER I do know that DDs usually move, messing things up further, so even if there is a plane technically capable of circling as tight as 400m from an immobile ship, it's still not realistically possible to do the spotting of such a ship in real game environment - even if the CV player has godly skills and spotting the DD for his team is the one and only purpose he has on his mind. No, not that much. As I said, yours is not the first and neither will it be the last dumb idea someone came up with

If you did, you wouldn't say "400m" or you wouldn't claim that the CV would be able to play the DD-spotter for the team. Unless that somehow disappeared from your post and that's why I should revisit it? As I am writing now, it's still there, though. Well, I've played the new CVs and I have extensive DD experience pre-patch. I've also played a little post-patch as well. This gives me some basis to build upon and lets me make up my mind about your idea. And the conclusion is... not favorable, to say it mildly. And since we are on the Forum and discussing in a thread titled "Idea for better DD play" in the context of the new patch - it seems like the right place to express my evaluation of your concept in writing.

Other than the sudden proliferation of CVs after the rework, isn't it basically the problem Asashio faces pretty much... always? I mean, she's a ship that relies on there being targets for her torps. Matches with few BBs are always a pain. And as for the rework - Asashio might actually end up being a beneficent of that one, because - if there will be common CV presence, DDs will probably remain slightly less prevalent and the pressure on existing DDs for fast point capture will be lower (so Asashio can farm damage without failing as a DD so hard) - planes (both from CV and otherwise) no longer spot torps AND there would likely be less DDs, as mentioned: meaning more torps reaching their targets - Asashio (unlike most DDs) has the torp range to keep using torps without getting too far from the main fleet, making it more viable than for most her peers to just stick relatively close to the big guys and run for cover when problems arise. CVs don't like hunting DDs that hide among bigger ships - rockets are pretty fragile and DDs are spotted late, so more time is needed to set up even the first attack (unless you know where the DD is beforehand, you are often unable to make an attack in the first fly-by).

You really should take out a CV and track the distances while flying around a training room with some bots, first immobile and then moving. It wouldn't give you much understanding of CV gameplay but it would allow you to get some feeling of the distances you're talking about. Because what you're aiming for (that's already a bad idea) doesn't correspond with what you actually suggest (the 400m air spotting radius). THIS is why I say you lack grasp on distance, not because of the overall suggestion. Other than this, yours is just another bad idea, hardly the first and certainly not the last in the long list of bad ideas people bring up as solutions for various balancing issues they perceive within the game.

And I'm telling you that this is ridiculously stupid not a viable solution. For the record, I'm a DD main. Yes, I do know what "radius" means. Yes, you still seem to be failing to grasp how tiny the radius of 400m is.

...literally impossible to attack with planes unless something else spots them, even if the CV knows pretty precisely where the ship is. I don't really think it's good how easy DDs are to harass with rockets but the idea that when you notice a DD you're too late not only for starting an attack run but even for attacking while already in the attack run... no, that doesn't sound like a workable solution in the slightest. It's one thing to make DDs less vulnerable to CV attacks and another to make them basically impossible to attack. Oh, and that "spotting for the team" - no, not with that spotting radius. You don''t seem to realize how little 400m is in this game. It wouldn't be realistically possible to keep within the specified range of the DD even if that was all you wanted to do.

The only things it really has in common with WoWp is that you're looking at planes... Other than that extremely shallow "first look" feeling they are basically nothing alike. They won't bring the old gameplay back, that one is already set in stone - it's best you give up your hope because the only thing that awaits you is disappointment... based not only on what WG said but also on their typical way of doing things, we'd sooner see CVs removed from the game than rolled back to the old mechanic. Btw, isn't is funny that, actually, all your concerns have basically been addressed with the rework? - planes don't have fuel but they never just circle for extended periods of time unless they are fighters - and these do have a time limit - AP bombs are a joke - the biggest number of torpedoes striking at once is 6 weak ones with extreme attack run to not fan into a ridiculously wide spread (USN) or 4 normal ones with extreme arming distance. - there is a How it Works video about new CV gameplay

Anyway, regardless of this... I'm not sure about your edits, I can still read the names and (especially) the clan tag...

RN CVs seem like they are getting the best of both worlds: easily usable torps, workable rockets and bombers that basically work like rocket planes as well (much superior in usability not only to the ridiculously inadequate IJN AP DBs but also than USN HE ones). But, well, let's see how it's going to be when they appear and after a couple iterations of nerfs/buffs.

No, as long as you're "blanking out" the names in screenshots, it should be ok. As long as you don't mention names and clantags in the post (and "erase" them on screenshots") the mods won't care. Seeing the replay takes extra effort AND if you do that, you're getting the full story rather than just someone's illustrated accusations.

DDs switch sides faster and quick turning actually gives you some extra ability to maximize the benefits (turning the ship a bit instead of switching the side). The problem is that DDs have naturally weak AA power so you shouldn't expect miracles. Now, as for more general things: there are some misconceptions about how AA works and how planes get shot down. As in, people often don't realize certain important factors: 1. Just because your AA shot nothing doesn't mean it didn't hurt the planes. First of all - planes now have actual hp. It's not "alive/dead" anymore - you can actually damage planes. The first strike rarely sees any planes drop from the sky, but attacking a ship with moderately strong AA leaves you with a lot of damaged planes. This increases the losses on subsequent runs - potentially forcing the CV to switch for an easier target, send some planes home without conducting as many drops as theoretically possible or suffering huge losses by pushing through with subsequent drops. 2. Just because you did little damage doesn't mean that the AA was useless. Your AA has a habit of filling the air with nasty black thingies that hurt the planes. CV players who have a clue will try to avoid flying into these. Even when successful, this can mean for them some extra turning that may lead to drops with bad dispersion or to missing the chance for a drop entirely (if they maneuvered and then failed to turn towards you in time). 3. The AA scales with many ships grouped together. This is, again, thanks to the aforementioned black thingies. You see, while the "aura" damage just adds up, the same isn't true for flak burst. THESE deal a lot of damage but only if your planes "catch" them. One ship normally spits out a wall of them with some frequency. The good AA ships tend to spit out huge walls in your way, but as long as it's just one wall, they are relatively manageable for a reasonably skilled CV player. But when you add a couple ships, even if some of them might individually shoot relatively few flak bursts, what you get is not just volume but messed up frequency - they seem to be spawning all the time. What's more, normally flak is spawned by long- and medium-rage AA. What it means is that most ships can't spawn flak right next to themselves (I think there are some exceptions when ships just don't have dedicated short-range AA), so the last phase of an attack run, when the planes are the most predictable (and therefore the most vulnerable to flak) happens at least partially within the area where your ship doesn't deploy flak burst anymore. But this only applies to the target itself - other ships in the area might just happen to set some nice walls of death at the perfect time and place to inflict a lot of damage. To put it simply, if there are a couple ships reasonably close by, flying through the area (or attacking something inside) is generally significantly more dangerous than flying over each of them in succession. All things considered, you shouldn't expect to be able to protect yourself in a lone ship. BBs can't do that, DDs can't do that, the exception might be AA cruisers with AA consumable ready. But grouping together seems to pay even better than it did with the previous system, at least as long as the ships grouping up are capable of putting at least a couple puffs of flak in the air. Now, as for DDs specifically... they, as usual, suffer from CVs the most. You won't normally get cross-dropped with torps but rocket planes will ruin your day - and the natural instinct for a DD is to be alone. Not a good idea. Unfortunately, the DD gameplay right now is pretty defensive and the worst mistake I've seen DDs do is over-commitment for capping. To put it simply - a DD gets into a cap, survives the air attack and thinks "I did it, now I can cap". But that's just not right. Rocket planes are fast. Surviving the attack is cue for you to run towards your AA-equipped friends because there's few targets as inviting for a CV in the opening phase of the game (when there are a lot of enemy ships, usually clustered in a couple groups) than a DD that's not only separated from their teammates but also insists on advertising their general position by capping. And you think a smoke will save you? Well, it might, for a time, but make sure to reposition within the cloud AND refrain from shooting AND turn off your AA. You'd be surprised how trackable your AA is from CV's perspective. And the rockets without reasonably long aiming are a scatter shot saturating quite some area with low-damage projectiles. One or two won't deal that much damage but they WILL cost you a lot of these capping points that you worked so hard for. And your smoke doesn't last forever. Alone you might luckily shoot down something but you won't put a big dent on enemy CVs rocket plane reserves. And a lone target with relatively low AA power, that's doing something tactically important (capping) AND - while invisible - can be easily tracked well enough to land at least some rockets? You're basically asking for the CV to focus on you, decap until your smoke disappears and then reopen the hunting season. I don't say you should never try to cap, but don't get so far ahead to not be able to quickly withdraw under friendly AA cover - and if a CV does come for you, don't linger. Chances are, the planes will be back, and fast, since you're most likely both the easiest and the most important target on the map.

The first thing to do would be to check background programs, especially ones that might be hogging a lot of CPU and memory. It MIGHT be something with the patch but there's a possibility of coincidence with some other factor, considering that the issue doesn't seem very widespread (and that the loading succeeds but just lasts a long time).

I personally basically went straight for Haku and I understand nothing. I don't seem to be doing much damage at all (in most battles, at least) but I end up with decent numbers of kills, reasonably high in XP list and with good WR. That last part might not be so important (very few battles) but I actually do feel as if I'm making a difference - maybe not as big as my WR implies but certainly not as small as my (below average) damage numbers should be implying. Idk. It's like I'm winning the battles by being annoying rather than dealing damage or something.

As someone occasionally sealclubbing at tier 2 (that meets t3s) or 5 (that meets t4s), I must disagree. Yes, the low tiers are populated by seals. Sometimes complete newbies, sometimes complete potatoes that got their butts handed to them at mid-to-high tiers a bit too much and couldn't adapt there (but still wanted to keep playing). While I agree that the level of play even at the highest tiers leaves quite a lot to be desired, the low tiers mostly see the play of significantly lower quality still. Yes, from time to time you will see a sealclubber of reasonable skill (presumably a veteran unwinding in less stressful environment) but these are few and far between - the overall level is below that of high tiers and the kinds of mistakes usually smell of lack of experience rather than of long practiced and perfected stupidity (as is too often the case in high tiers).

Almost certainly no - the upgrades are completely separate from ships (even if this one can be mounted only on one specific ships) and the standard approach to upgrades from refundsold ships is "demounted for free and put in inventory" - there doesn't seem to be a reason for things to be different here (and many why it shouldn't be different, considering that there's no standard way to reacquire the upgrade - the mission can be completed only once). Although, obviously, MrConway's (or other WG representative's) answer would be more binding than my assumptions