ThinderChief

I stand corrected. You're right, it's St Vitus dance when it comes to direction. In one hand you have all those stats lovers who bash average players and tell them their play style is best, on the other hand there is a need for sales and it doesn't seems to be easy to balance, in fact, W.G are not the only developers struggling with that, they should hire players from different levels to get proper feedback to make decisions which allows for players of all levels to enjoy the game. We're not there yet apparently. Btw, those Cleveland new born players really have it in for the DDs, it doesn't mean they win more, it means the game feels rotten as less and less are willing to cap, been bad for a while, but now... What i would suggest is new algorithms for radar consumable, so that as in real life, they don't detect through rocks, same with sonars, i don't use radar but i do use sonars in my Zao and to honest, i feel it's unfair to be able to detect and spot another ship this way. I had a game today where there were only 2DDs per team and i counted 4 Cleveland in the enemy team. That's more radars than DDs and caps.

For someone who spend his time smoke firing, hiding his lack of guts in the mist all the time. LOL. Look you might have better stats than other people, but many have what makes man a man and you don't.

That's exactly where they're aiming.

Complete bag of horse manure. It's not having radar in a game it's having 6 radars when there are 3 caps in a game, meaning it makes the game static, not only this but this coward play style doesn't stop there, is there any skills required to park your butt behind an island and hit the radar key to get a DD killed? NO... Camping is a bummer in this game and W.G is just making sure it turns even more into camper's paradise, might be your lot, but not mine and not many of us. At some point W.G wanted a more dynamic game, multiplication of radar ships is a complete miss. If they keep this trend, people aren't going to enjoy playing DD at all and it will take some more bum trick of hell to change this situation, more radar was the opposite of what was needed, after having sold Missouri like cookies to guys who sole purpose is to hunt DDs, as if you need a BB to do so, complete brain fart. At high tiers (IX/X) it was already impossible to enjoy playing DDs since a while, now we have the same bull at tVIII, when you think they promoted the Russian DD line with a high concealment figure and mediocre torps for most what were they thinking???

Valid for everyone, not only an "elite" spending their time collecting signals and other goodies, this means for players of every levels or else, only top players will have and keep this advantage. From my PoV, the reason for this is W.G doesn't want to give away so many rewards, that's their lot but in acting so, they encourage elitism.

Last game... Impossible to cap, and yet some guy kept clicking in my position while i was trying to spot the radar ship and avoid the bombers, do they ever bother looking at the team composition?. https://postimg.cc/image/p60bwad8b/ I managed to put only ONE single torp on this Des Moines camping on F7 while constantly calling for fire support, only one ship paid attention, so not only i did my spotting job but also contributed to his kill, then i noticed the CV, i managed the kill after loosing 4/5th of my HP to dive bombers and torp bombers. Normally i would rather spot for the team and try to torp some, eventually use my guns. Support IS the problem for DDs. So, if you want to keep your DD alive: 1) Look at the enemy team, figure IF your DDs CAN cap without getting instantly killed. 2) Provide instant fire support, KILL the radars, don't farm, you'll loose your DD and most of the time, the game. 1 https://postimg.cc/image/ql1wl06ln/ You DONT win caps when your support hides behind their little island, shutting down their fire angle, and you have to deal with two puss-puss specialised in deleting DDs, Z-52 and Moskva. Not the most courageous type of players if you ask me, and yet i'm sure they think they're good because their stats say so... https://postimg.cc/image/mh5zpqz0b/

That's exactly my point. And yet you have those supreme beings lecturing everyone else on how to, just as well W.G doesn't always listen to their B.S. The multiplication of radar ships just renders the game completely static for DD players but they will ALWAYS avoid this issue, what the point of concealment, speed and agility when you simply cant use them because some campers got themselves pay-to-win Missouri or are literally given new radar ships for free, especially the most popular and probably numerous Cruiser in the game in this line, the worst is that they think parking themselves behind islands and hitting the radar key is a skill. In some games, i never went across the map mid-line, i was just trying to spot without being spotted and with the Minsk without the Concealment Expert Skill, it's just suicidal, even so those geezer aim real bad most of the time, once the DD is spotted it's a rush for the kill. Oh yeah i nearly forgot, the funny quote: "Capture this area", when the team composition tells you there are up to 6 radars for 3 caps plus gunboats. W.G couldn't have done worse had they wanted to, they could screw a titanium crowbar on this one, without trying.

Agreed and since the Cleveland are now equipped with them, everyone remotely average with this ship is scoring high on DDs.

Perhaps so, but the main attraction is its radar consumable and it still is a paper ship. As a DD player i observe them a lot, they get killed like flies in a cloud of insect killer, AND they struggle to hit a Kiev when you maneuver it while they don't have the agility to avoid your shells and can loose a lot of HP to fire, in short, at tVIII, a good gunboat is a better ship if you know how to stay away from their radar detection range or dodge their fire. At the moment, with 10 Captain Skills points, my Kiev have a bad concealment at 7.9km, just imagine what you can do vs the Cleveland with more stealth like my Kagero at 5.4km, playing the Cleveland, you will get detected and focused, since your gun range, shell velocity and Health pool are not the best, your impact on the game will be lower than you might expect. From my PoV, having being playing the Cleveland a LOT in Operation of the week, putting it at tVIII is a huge mistake, and radar consumable is not going to change that, in the Operation games this ship was brilliant, now, you might think it still is, time will tell, but first impression having seen a lot of them in a few games are not that good, i really hope they don't have to play vs higher tiers than VIII. Moskva and Zao are far better for their tiers.

OK so, second game with the Ognovoi, we won but... As i expected, multiple radars in a game make it a lot more static for the simple reason that DDs won't be able to do their spotting jobs and Cleveland being a paper ship they won't engage otherwise than by camping, it's already hard work for them to kill a maneuvering Ognevoi from mid to long range, considering their low HP and lack of shell speed it's not improving the dynamic of the game or their chance to have much impact on it other than spotting using their radar. My prediction and first impression were correct, it took only two games to figure out that: 1) They are in such a number, it kills the dynamic of the game from the word GO. https://postimg.cc/image/d11balhtn/ 2) DDs won't come anywhere near a cap or even try to spot them if their concealment in not the best available, not a Russian DD that is. 3) Of course there are ways around this but who pays? Cleveland is NOT suited for this role with 14.2 km gun range, it doesn't compare to many other Cruisers at tVIII, a stock Chapayev has a 14.75 km range, WHY on hearth moving the Cleveland to this tier? 4) Other players quickly figured that all out and as a result there is a clear possibility that Cleveland became even more vulnerable because it will be targeted in priority and fire-focused, in this last game i got more damage than any of them, got two kills (the last a mutual kill against the caping Kagero), only one of the Cleveland survived the game and i finished in front, all average player that i am. Says a lot about the impact of this change on the game overall. I'm rarely critical of W.G introducing changes because most of the time they are meant to re-balance the game, but THIS is completely unnecessary and doesn't work neither for Cleveland players nor for the game dynamic. Cleveland sold as far as i'm concerned. https://postimg.cc/image/r7h25u0ej/

If that's your excuse for preaching an high number of radar ('im sure you don't spit on them reading your comments) it's rather lame. First, people opinion doesn't weight on the basis of their win rates, or else your bunch would still be able to abuse the fire chances you enjoyed before the introduction of the Fire Prevention Skill most of you were so vocal to criticise, blaming in passing Russian and BB players, while melting everything else, looks good on paper but it doesn't make you good it makes you a camper, so pack it up. Second, I Am average, NOT below, that's what my stats says, thank you for the flame bate and the usual "hate" B.S but NO THANKS, when i need an opinion about my play style, i know where to ask, you're not on my list. Third, do you consider that parking yourself behind an island and hitting the radar key demands skills? I think not.

Sure. Giving MORE access to radar consumable is a completely stupid idea. First Cleveland is a turkey at tVIII because of its gun range and low HP, then it makes sure when you play a DD, even so you can win a gunfight at this tier vs another DD (as i just did playing the Ognevoi in a tVIII battle), you're a target of choice for those frustrated Cleveland players, meaning the problem of multiplication of radar per game we had at higher tiers have now increased. W.T.H??? I use to LOVE this ship but you can be sure it will go to the bin with all the other radar ships you can throw at us, talk about taking the mickey...

Yeah, on this particular Operation, no matter how hard you can try, if you don't have everyone pulling their own weight you'll en up with a loss.

Thanks for saying so, at least i know now that i am not the only one with this impression of the actual state of the game. I just played my Shimakaze first time for a while and get a win, there were only 2 radars on the opposite team, one in our side, experience dictated me to avoid caping which mean that not only we were able to kill the Z-52 which i would have had to compete against if i had gone straight to the cap, but also their two Baltimore, i killed one BB on the cap and we took it, but for as long as the radar was alive i was unable to get anywhere close to the cap. Our Des Moines kept their DD spotted but was killed quiet early, had he been on one of the other caps, it would have been a lot more difficult to win this game, and this was comparatively easy when you think that you can have up to 5 potential radar ships in a team, i was with a good team and it also made a difference. https://postimg.cc/image/sh5ot02fv/ https://postimg.cc/image/d8frf8o6z/ About this week Operation, same, quiet easy, win with 5 stars, but i still noticed the high fire chances of the bots, one hit, one fire, which is quiet annoying, especially if you play a DD with low HP and no heal. https://postimg.cc/image/ijuo0601n/ https://postimg.cc/image/yi3dqbp4r/

My problem in Random from tVIII to tX are not the bots, unless bots can play radar ships and make sure all the IJN torp boats are obsolescent because as early as something shows their presence (cap marker or simply being detected) campers hidden behind their little rocks hit the radar key, taking the only real quality of those ship away and giving a free meal to their pals playing gunboats by designating targets they otherwise wouldn't detect. When one can buy a Missouri only to play DD hunters how can you blame people who "rush" to get a ship they want at those tiers? 5 radar ships on the enemy team, are you kidding me? Then people not liking O.P ships, are not rare, i'm one of them: I sold ALL my radar ships, i stop researching Russian DDs not willing to get a Kabah, and i'm don't regret my choice the slightest; look at the ship stats and find an IJN DD in the top 5, meaning your average DD player have been done over and saw the option of playing IJN torp boats literally gone with the increase of ships able to get radar consumable, the latest Shima buff changes little to this fact. To win a cap you need 1) more radars and more immediate fire support than the opposite DD. 2) a gunboat, preferably with more firepower than Shimakaze and even Gearing. That leaves you with Yueyang, Khabarovsk, Z-52, Grozovoi or any of those topping the win rate score above 50%. https://postimg.cc/image/qq8vmhr3v/ It's pretty much the same kind of unbalance with other types of ships, so putting this on the tally of "bad" players way is too easy, because W.G introduced new lines which are simply stronger than what the average player can deal with while playing their beloved (now below-) average ship, be it BB (Montana is a good example in a 1vs1 against a Conqueror), Cruisers (how is a ship like the Zao not top?) and Shimakaze which only had to deal with Gearing it could beat using concealment not so long ago. In short the new lines and changes introduced are typical of the influence of top players putting their weight on them only for W.G figuring the game turned into an elite tournament where the largest player base is struggling to cope. Here is an example of team composition that makes the game near unplayable for your average DD players: You can count 6 (SIX) ships on the enemy team that can take the radar consumable, but even if the Yueyang, use smoke, it will eat all the other DDs for breakfast once spotted, in the tIX, only the Z-46 can hope to contest a cap to balance a little; this sort of mm is what players have to deal with, and i personally saw up to 3 Missouri in the opposite team. game over from start. From those tX DD stats, only gunboats are above 50%, the most popular DDs (or those which used to be the most pop) are below 50% average win rate, if you don't play one of the tops, you're quasy certain to see your win rate fall, which is exactly what happened to me since i had quiet a good progression from tVII to tX until radar started to breed like rabbits. Parking your butt behind an island and hitting the radar key demands skills? I think not. https://postimg.cc/image/vidn0s55n/ So if you want people to be able to progress while playing the ship they chose to research, you'll need MORE changes and re-balance of this game, because at it is now, those able to progress are left with little choice but to get ships that perhaps they don't like to play or doesn't suit their play style, as is my case since i do not like to play pure gunboats, radar ships or any O.P ships for the stake of seeing my stats take a positive aiming again. It is also one of the reasons why players feels like avoiding Random, they do not to like to be used as XP fooder, not necessarily because they are bad but also because they don't fit the actual mould.

Really? Is there a piece of regulation that says so? You guys are plain funny, if the game was designed around your requirements you'd be crying out for XP fooders, you know the guys called patatoes, noobs etc in your lexique?

Those DDs are one of the reasons why i don't take any chances at the start of the game, if i need to go after them and am low HP, i have to repair first. I often intercept the first one after bashing the BBs and depending on my health will be sooner or later on the second one. From what i have seen it is important to keep HP as high as possible to tackle other DDs when the repair circle is not in close proximity. A good CV player can make the difference, first in spotting ships earlier, then taking out out of range targets and as you pointed out, protecting the forts, i tried to smoke the eastern battery but in this game it doesn't work that well, in other, it does.

An example of a guy who doesn't get it from the word go: In his Atlanta, asked me to spot from the start, when in fact the first two DDs are looking for us and "spotting" with a DD will only get you killed since the two of them will focus you in the first place, then he chased them, bumped into the BBs and Cruiser, get another kill and died FIRST. Then complain calling me a pussy for not spotting for him, even so i call him back several time over warning him about the incoming BBs. LOL! I'm impressed. In this mission, DDs doesn't need to expose themselves at the start of the game, from experience, your "support" will never get the enemy DD kills to avoid you to take too much damage, or get killed anyway, better race them along the island and fire when they are visible than get anywhere close to them, you can kill some, with a torp boat you need to be in position ASAP as well to hit the BBs, and with the Akatsuki, if you use engine boost you even have time to torp them twice and smoke fire the Cruiser. It helps, but NO spotting getting fraged. The Cleveland comes next and i saw too many Cruisers getting killed trying to take it on, either by it or the BBs who will citadel them easily, so i will get in position to support the Cruisers as well. Considering that it was close, if people weren't playing like they're invulnerable perhaps some more games would be won. As a DD player i don't need to be told to do this or do that, by players who doesn't comprehend the situation in the first place: In high tiers random, players will ask a torp boat to go cap when they haven't yet read the team composition that says "5 radar ships in the enemy team plus gun boats". Here it's pretty much the same, they want to go yeha and expect you to do the same, I was the last to die, meaning, with a couple of other ships we could have won it but NO, they know better. https://postimg.cc/image/vq0tdtjq3/ https://postimg.cc/image/6wr9d5szv/

It's only true from short to mid-range, which make you wonder how you can manage to loose a 1vs1 against a tVI, torping them even a point blank range is near impossible, they always seems to know how to avoid them more than most players would... On the other hand, there are a lot of other variables, but generally, ships dying too fast and not adding to the overall firepower are one of the reason for the losses. Not being much of a BB player i manage rather well in average with the Lyon, sometimes with a lower score than that, i still end up with a winning team, which can explain how some people can feel W.G rigged the game with losses like that. https://postimg.cc/image/hjbvrkzdn/ https://postimg.cc/image/9dtttf3ez/

Yes the bots are strong, first time i played it i asked myself "since when did they became pro"? But there are ways to beat them, if everyone plays well, stay alive, score kills it works, that is.... The opposite of THIS. Everyone D.E.A.D before even the second wave. One of the problems are the relative weakness of the Cruisers, they're always the first to die or almost, often fails to kills the first two DDs (you wonder how they manage to do so in Random), so whatever other ships you play, you end up having to cope with DDs Cruisers AND BBs up to the repair circle or even further. When you have a proper team, you can win, even a 5 stars win is doable, but not if everyone get killed before half time or fail to score kills. To get a win, even more so a 5 stars, everyone have to pull his weight. I figured that i was not efficient playing a Cruiser, so i resorted to play the Minsk or Akatsuki. Alternatively i don't do too bad with the Lyon although positioning is more important with it due to the lack of speed, when playing the Minsk, my main focus is to give as much support to the Cruisers because they struggle to kill the Cleveland, often loosing a 1vs1 against it, so i get into position to bash it while being out of direct fire from DDs and BBs from the start, hoping the Cruisers deals with the first 2 DD but there is the problem, they often fail to kill them even when there are 3 of them if you dont support them. I find that the most homogeneous team is with a good CV player, willing to keep targets spotted for us, it's way easier to play DDs without having to expose ourselves and get damaged or killed too fast. For the group of DDs trying to disrupt the repair workshop, it's best to be out of the repair circle if you can flank them smoke firing, when they are too close i find it impossible to win an engagement with them, they seem to be able to avoid torps like i never seen before while they never fail to hit, if you can stop them, the other ships are rather easier to kill but Sims and Farragut are real pest, even playing the Minsk. The Minsk can score citadels on most Cruisers and run circles around BBs while hitting them with rapid fire, i think if you feel at ease with a particular ship you can find the right tactics in order to provide the support the other team members needs. https://postimg.cc/image/6eibskc9n/ https://postimg.cc/image/fnki29dbf/

From my PoV, at tVI the best Cruiser is the Cleveland, take it 2 ties higher, it becomes a turkey. Where did W.G get this idea from?

Especially with a Monarch, this BB line from tVIII, 35% fire chance, repair at will and concealment of a Cl, are you kidding me? How about 5 radar ships per team in a game?

Aegis is a lot easier. With what i regard as the most efficient ship for Operation of the week missions, the Cleveland, i managed 7 kills, 153,542 damage without taking any damage myself, but we got only 4 stars. First 5 stars of the day with the Gnevny, less fires but only one less citadel.

The problem is that most teams seems to be caught off, often failing to re position in time for intercept, in particular the sneaky DD at the extreme side of the 3rd wave formation. To succeed you need not only people who re position fast but also not be afraid to offer immediate fire support where it is really needed, not necessarily on demand because a guy get into a panic situation but on the ship closest to breaking the defence line. One thing i do most of the time is to smoke at least two batteries, firing from the spot, so the whole team have extra guns and support fire, if i can save two of them it makes a difference at the end of the game. DD players should do that more often instead of planting their smoke in the middle of the pound where it shield only themselves, same for RN Cruisers. Since i train my Commanders playing those missions, i play Ernst Gaede, Gnevny, and Fushun. I got my best results with the Fushun but the drawback is its inability to torp other DDs. Ernst Gaede is really efficient too but with only 3 smoke canister i have to play it differently, i can't smoke the batteries the same way and have to use the terrain instead. Depending on the team, we managed 5 stars about once out of 6 games or less often, with a loss rate of about 2 out of 10 or so. Oh yeah i nearly forgot, this fire thing is a complete bag of bulls, too many fires, one hit one fire, one hit one fire, it's tiresome.

Actually, not only fire power, the top tiers British BBs have better concealment and heal as well, you just can't hope competing with them 1 vs 1 in open sea, providing you can hit them, they have a nice buffer and reload 5 sec faster, then we wont mention the damage the French BBs take when hit with H.E. No contest.