ThinderChief

I definitively believe it doesn't revolves around you, you provide data, thank you, but in the context of my comment and following it closely, they were irrelevant simply because they do not cover the right topic, note that I suggested you might be able to find the right data, but thanks nevertheless... ps about your "i'm sure lecture", it doesn't help, I said my opinion was suggestive BECAUSE we do NOT have those data, you should do the same here or provide the data on time-to-input response for those ships, and it's NOT at higher speed, it's a every speed I can notice this... Yeah you guessed right, I bow to no one...

Instantaneous turn rate: Clear enough, applies to any vehicle and describes the capability to change direction quickly. It doesn't mean high sustained turn rate which is what most of you understood or rudder shift, Dunkerque responds quickly to rudder input and I'm my comment (If you had bothered to read it) I made a clear distinction between the two, note that I might be a noob, I still can read ships stats and compare how ships plays myself. Where this instantaneous turn rate can be useful, although it doesn't extend to a large arc, it is for bowin'in and dodge torpedoes or deflecting shells when you see them coming early enough, which is not my case playing this ship right now because my Captain doesn't have the skills yet. Talking of which; Skills, I got: Basic Firing Training. Expert Marksman. Superintendent. And I'm now aiming for Manual Fire Control for AA armament. Although I manage above 37% hit ratio (it varies between 36 and 38%) i'd love to increase that, do you know of any combination of skills/upgrade that would help, even scarifying range? Am still stocked in Co-Op with high ping/low frame rate, BHL courier didn't find the entrance to my flat yesterday and my Corsair DIMMS are still not mounted Rrrrr... So I keep training Capitaine Clement killing bots, I don't have any illusion, these results will get lot lower when I go back to Random but it's a very good training room for both myself and my Captains, I learn how to kill other Dunkerques, Tirpitz and the rest of it. NO FEAR, this ship, I love it.

​It is an aviation technical term expressed in G onset or deg/sec, so don't go there even with your Oxford, you get it wrong in the first place. Again you do not have the figures for replying properly to my comments. 1) Rudder shift is control deflection, response to it another aspect do you have any figure for that? 2) Turning circle or sustained turn rates should be computed at equal speed (reason why it is computed in resulting G load in aviation terms because it depends on each vehicle evolution envelope) or over equal speed scales from lowest to highest, since the ship tends to turn tighter when it slows down. So it might be totally subjective but I find Dunkerque one of the ship I have played with the highest instantaneous turn rate, which is very useful at times. I'll try to explain briefly and simply: Hydrodynamics and aerodynamics obey to similar physics laws, it terms of evolution over this plan (Yaw with ships and roll involved to initiate the turn with A-Cs), it's power/weight/drag that will matter, I don't know how W.G computed this but one thing is for sure, you can have a hell of a swift rudder time and slow response to it, simply because your ship is bulkier and/or generates more resistance to motion in relation to the power available to it. Accessorily with ships which doesn't have wing-generated lift, rudder efficiency can make a lot of difference too, so control deflection, like in aviation is only a small factor, the response of the vehicle to it matters a lot more, this is why I insist it is subjective and I can confirm after a brief battle 5 mn ago that Dunkerque initiates and stops turns very swiftly indeed. Now, quoting myself: I make a clear distinction, I don't even mention rudder shift time and it is subjective if anything, based on how I feel she respond to command to initiate a turn, so let's get those time-to-turn from rudder shift input figures and then we will see how subjective we are (because I am not the only one with this impression).

O​ui, j'ai essaye les deux, le demi-tour rapide ca ne marche que contre un DD, les autres ont de quoi faire trop de degats de l'arriere. En marche arriere on peut user pratiquement n'importe qui, a condition de ne pas etre isole contre plusieur navires, les BB du meme tiers ont des problemes avec vu de face... Merci! J'ai essaye mais apres tout j'aime bien l'original aussi. ​

You fail to comprehend the definition of instantaneous turn rate, which is in deg/sec the rate at which a vehicle respond to control input to change direction from the moment command is initiated by control input to (and as opposed to) sustained turn rate until its maximum is achieved. Otherwise said, regardless of rudder shifting time, it is the response of the ship to it until she is at her maximum sustained turn rate and everyone I hear commenting on that agrees that she changes direction quickly. Every steerable vehicle has an instantaneous turn rate value, I was mentioning hers because it is not so bad at all, and something else, it doesn't necessarily needs full control/rudder deflection.

​ What NOPE? She does better than 3 of them if these figures are giving */sec. So YEP. And you're more than welcome to post a link to your sources.

Bon, je suis nouveau donc prends ca avec des pincettes mais voila comment je le joue cote canon et engagement MM: Les Croiseurs US ne sont pas les plus blindes mais ils sont rapide et maniables, ils se pretent parfaitement a la tactique du "yoyo", comme en dogfight avion, ou on s'eloigne apres un tir pour revenir sur la cible (c'est le principe, oublie les axes differents pous les bateaux) et leur armament est specialise GUNS. Donc a priori, je maximise mon camo et ma portee de tir pour avoir deux cercles (detection et distance de tir maxi) les plus separes possible, c'est ma "kill zone", rotation tourelle donc, au detriment de ma cadence de tir peut etre mais il faut choisir un compromis. Je manoeuvre afin de conserver mes cibles dans cette kill zone en utilisant a fond ma vitesse, si necessaire en fesant en sorte de retrouver mon invisibilite quand c'est possible, donc on commence la manoeuvre en allant vers la cible, on tire des qu'on est a portee en amorcant un virage pour commencer la seconde partie du "yoyo", seconde bordee, puis zig zag en s'eloignant SANS tirer afin de retrouver son invisibilite le plus tot possible en gardant un oeuil sur l'arriere et la carte pour eviter lest tirs et eventuellement detecter la presence des spoters. Il a aussi un role primordial mais completement ignore la plupart du temps car il ne rapporte pas des masses individuelement, c'est celui de plateforme AAA mobile, au seins d'une equipe equilibree, maxed out ou pas, ses AAA sont parmis les plus efficaces, plus chasseur qu'on peut tourner en "dogfight Ace" par le biais du Commandant. Je me souviens d'avoir protégé un BB de cette facon contre les raids successifs du CV ennemi, ca demande un positionement different afin de ne pas devenir la cible de tout les BB du coin tout en gardant le protégé dans un rayon de couverture AAA acceptable, la aussi la vitesse et maneuvrabilite du Baltimore comptent pour braucoup. Resultat: 12 kills contre avions a la fin de la partie + une victoire (18 en faisant de meme avec le New Orleans) en comptant les chasseurs, spoters, bombardiers etc. Bon je me suis retouve avec moins de points que je ne l'aurais fait en jouant pour ma pomme mais le BB en question a fait son boulot et en le soutenant AAM et MM, j'ai participle a ses propres performances sur la duree du jeu, il a survecu, moi aussi et vu que notre PA etait juste dans l'axe, derriere nous je l'ai probablement protégé aussi. Je pense qu'en jeu d'equipe ca peut compter.

Bonjour. Pom pom pom pom... Ici Londres, les Francais parlent aux Francais... ThinderChief de la banlieu Londoniene. Bon, voila, je viens de m'offir le Dunkerque pour la modeste somme de £17.50 sans vraiment savoir a quoi m'attendre, par elan patriotique et pour supporter les artistes 3D de W.G qui font un boulot fantastique non? LOL! Alors ma premiere impression est une peu biasee pour la simple et bonne raison que par manque de memoire, je ne peut pas jouer en Random a un tiers plus haut que IV sans crash, avec ce tVI, c'est juste jouable, lag, fpm vraiment bas, gel sur image etc. Donc impossible de connaitre mes vrai perfs en Random vu que j'ai essaye 3/4 fois et que ca donne 0/0/0/0 = tue sur la ligne de depart, mais le Dunkerque est a premiere vue, un tres bon bateau, en tout cas a mon gout. Moi j'adore, j'ai atteins 38% de coups au but (ca varie mais c'est mon top), et je fais aussi bien sinon mieux avec qu'en jouant le North Carolina ou New Mexico (toujours en Co-Op pour les memes raisons). Du coup je ne regrete surement pas ma decision de l'acquerir et je m'en felicite meme, c'est un Plaisir a jouer, il est tres rapide, a un taux de virage instantanne eleve, meme si son rayon de virage reste haut, il change de direction rapidement, il accelere et ralentis vite aussi, donc c'est des plus pour l'agilite en combat. Cote blindage, faut pas trop m'en demander, d'une part parceque je n'ai joue que des bateaux avec des blindages moyens ou juste au-dessus, d'autre part parceque je ne suis pas un genie cote tactique, etant nouveau, je me foure dans des embuscades assez facilement, donc je m'en prend de tous les cotes et c'est difficile d'apprecier le blindage d'un bateau dans ces conditions. Mais j'ai tout de meme Remarque une chose, de front, il est assez bon. Cote canon, a longue distance, faut se faire a la dispersion mais on peut toujours toucher la cible a portee max, avec 8 canons, en plus de ca il fait des citadelles comme pas possible, les Croiseurs sont presque one-shootes a chaque bordee bien ajustee, donc ne pas hesiter a commencer a engager a distance. Certains parlent d'utiliser les munition HE, mais personelement je me fait un point d'honneur a le faire le moins possible, surtout vu la penetration qu'on peut obtenir avec et le nombre de citadelle que j'ai obtenu depuis, je ne compte pas le nombre d'over-pen non plus sur les Cruirasses, donc ca passe et si on touche le pont, ca citadelle aussi. On peut reparer un incendie (il suffis de decrocher et utiliser la recharge) mais une cita, non seulement c'est permanent, mais si en plus ca s'accompagne d'une seconde vole c'est game over a chaque coup, une vole de HP bien centre peut carrement reduire les points de sante de n'importe quell croiseur a 10/5%, sans blaguer, et il m'est arrive d'obtenir des kills avec 8 obus sur des Cruirasses a 100% de point de sante. Donc, Dunkerque OUI, bilan plutot positif, bien sur on peut toujours lui trouver des defauts mais bien joue il est canon. ThinderChief out et vive DeGrasse! Wawan25, on 09 November 2016 - 11:32 AM, said: Pas spécialement. Je dois reconnaître que j'ai de plus en plus de mal à considérer le Dunkerque comme un cuirassé à part entière. Parfois je trouve que le rôle de croiseurs lourds lui conviendrait mieux étant donné qu'une bonne partie des dégâts que n'inflige est fait à l'HE, que je détruis très souvent des Destroyers et que sans l'aide d'autres cuirassés je suis limité à tenir une position, sans pouvoir réellement avancer sans danger. Salut! J'ai une question: Ces mods camo sont'-ils compatibles avec ceux du jeux pour leur qualities de discretion/XP/credit etc? Merci!

I haven't watched passed the first two salvos yet but... Q: How did he manage to miss that? What is he doing in open sea in view of every ship front/left/right?

Cool! Good for learners too... Cheers.

Yes, yet. Although i'm stocked I Co-Op for lack of memory, I love the ship, I got my best results ever (even compared to all other ships I played in Co-Op), highest hit ratio, second highest kill ratio and win ratio after the North Carolina. I know it's likely to change when I got those Corsair DIMM and go back to Random but it's real good practise, I keep scoring citadels, it does over pen a lot though, but with 38% hit ratio so far it's pretty good results on the firing range. Next will come S.A and tactical playing, another level methink, but the Dunkerque is everything I hoped she would be and more, I hope I can get on that good with the Des Moines... Bow-in, I learned that with this ship, bow and deck armor are decent, the only issue is when the ships are too close, it's hard to keep your bow pointed at the bad guy due to her large turning circle, but she has a very high instantaneous turn rate, changes direction, slows down and accelerate pretty fast.

Point 1 = FALSE. I find out playing my Dunkerque that the most difficulty adversary were other Dunkerque for the simple reason that they come at you at a near perfect angle for a possible deflection, they are the hardest to kill from the front. Other BB doesn't take this sort of care, offering a lot more surface to hit and a wider angle most of the time, and yes they cap very inefficiently at times... Point 2 = EQUALLY FALSE. I also saw numerous examples of Cruisers doing exactly that, in my last game (loss) I ended up having to face 2 BBs and got HE spammed from the right, shells going over an Ireland from a couple of Cruisers who just made a cold meal of our right flank, in less than 5 mn the whole team was reduced to myself and another BB. So I guess the rest of the team were lobotomised players, on drugs and drunk. On my very last game, we were 3 (humans) on the left flank, 1 Cruiser and another BB vs 2 BB and 1 Cruiser, I got smacked badly by an air raid from the CV, despite launching my fighter and targeting the ACs, in this short engagement, the two other guys died FAST and I was left with the 2 BBs after I dispatched the Cruiser. I did kill the bot Dunkerque but get done by more bombers and the remaining German BB, so again if bots are that bad on a regular basis, that says a lot about the human playing in my teams... I guess the motto "you're only as good as your team" applies in Co-Op too, I noted, dully, that some of the replies, far from being as informative as they should be had the smell of full scale ego tripping, bad psychopathic habits carried over here from WoT? Damned I wish it wasn't the case, this community ended up so rotten by corruption, aimbots, cheats, including some staff bathing right in the middle of this dirty business, it would be a waste, in my humble opinion, the day W.G decides to clean up this trash, some people will have it bad, real bad... http://wotreplays.com/uploader/ThinderChief/id/573804 Oh btw. My "Stats" with the Dunkerque in Random looks like that 0/0/0/, since I tried without success to play it, I was thrown out of the games and killed on the grid each time, pretty much the story of my Random games since the last update, on the other hand I got a 38% ​hit ratio in Co-Op with the same ship, and 1.18 for the kills and reasonably smooth and playable games. Well, mostly playable. As I was saying I expect this to get significantly lower in Random but I would like to be able to evaluate by how much without having to go through all the usual plumbery comparing B.S, i'm passed the age and if I don't tell "stats" lovers to stuff it, it's only because stats are part of the topic subject. You get the drift, to those who did stay informative and in the debate, thank you so much for your replies. Ah yeah, I nearly forgot, I think Co-Op makes an excellent training room, I practise my long range gunnery, just got myself 3 citadels on one Cruiser and 2 BBs from passed 1.200m with the Dunkerque, I didn't miss a single salvo, every single one scored one or more hits, the first one on the Cruiser was devastating, nearly instant kill. I follow the same progression than with the WZ-121 and KV-13 in WoT, I guess I might end up with a kill rate =/> t0 1.0 once back in Random, let's try it.

​Sure. Easy to kill a player struggling with 1.5 sec lag and 10 fps, when the game starts at all. we will see when I get my system sorted. ps keep the sarcasm for your buddies they might find you funny and before replying a topic comment, READ IT.

Been deleted due to HUGE lag and low frame rate 4 times today, every single time I tried to play my brand new Dunkerque in Random. Co-Op is a lot less memory hungry. Trying to solve the issue I figure how much more than I thought of a piece of garbage Windows 10 is, just to give you an idea; I have 2 GB of Corsair 1333, Cortana on its own uses up to 36% of the total amount of memory. Then I managed to dissable it first, then delete its address by changing the name of the folder, Windows 10 automatically assign this freed amount of memory to yet another set of useless and intrusive apps running in the background, like the built-in firewall which you can stop but not get rid of or better, the built-in VPN that you need to stop EVERY SINGLE TIME you log into Windows. In short there is NO user's control whatsoever over the way physical memory is managed unless you get rid of ALL those apps, and then again the game is NOT going to be given more than 60% of it even if more is available. Assigning priority to the game using Task Manager doesn't work, it makes the game unstable, meaning that you will need a LOT more than the minimum required to have a smooth game because whatever you do, Windows 10 tends to negate it to make itself more "comfi". I ordered 4 GB of Corsair 1600 and am planning the next order to double that this week. What operating system do you use?

True her turning circle is larger than some but she's got this instantaneous turning rate that helps a lot dodging fire or torps, I wont mention giving a very hard time to HE spamming DDs trying to stalk you. Bots don't think (i still only play Co-Op when the game doesn't crash before it starts) but it looks like they behave like some players who think he/she can score a hell of a lot from behind, with Dunkerque, it's the VERY move that get them deleted fast thanks to her secondaries. If someone can play her to her strength it's a hell of a good ship. True, i havent seen a ship i didn't manage to pen from long to short range and to get rid of DDs you dont even need to swap to HE which is not only time saving but also less confusing when the game gets real intense.

Good thing I followed your advise, I purchased the Dunkerque for £17.50 last night and I love it, it's hard to say what I would do in Random with it since I can barely play a good game in Co-Op because of lack of memory, I experience lag (passed the sec and half sometimes) low frame rate and even game crashes before it even starts. Random is a NO GO for me at the moment, I was killed on the grid without being able to play the only game I tried to take her to Random, so I will wait for m Corsair DIMM before giving it another go. I have a 37% hit ratio with it, after 10 battles (official public not refreshed yet from the last), 80% win rate, survived 7 out of 10, destroyed 13 ships, 3 in the same battle, I expect these to go down significantly when I restart playing Random but it's the highest of my ships, she zaps Cruisers like no other ships I played and is quiet good vs any BB you can throw at it.​ Well worth the investment.

Yeah everyone read you and your explanation but when we underline the fact that those are based on rather unreliable estimate of what those game mechanics are supposed to do, and the reserves made by the guy (if it was you you were not too affirmative in the topic in question) made (reason for using HE, he doesn't "believe"). People have their own experiences and they told you about it (explaning how they managed to achieve that in details), apparently you do not play that way, again it's perhaps why you do not have the same experience, nothing wrong with that, but mine taught me not to become a believer in "absolute" reality when it comes to digital matters, I take all of those stats as baseline then make my experiences from there. Plus I witnessed otherwise how much inaccurate those calculation might well be by seeing the end of flight time ARC and increased angle I described from a totally different PoV, not my shells, fired at nearly 70* from my position, by another ship on a BB, those shells were near vertical visually when they hit the BB's deck, so the real angle in question was WAY closer to vertical than 25* with parallax correction especially because the range was not 15km. I have worked for this industry W.G wasn't even a project, as a 3D artist, modelling and animating, probably using the same tools than them today, even helped developing them (the tools in question) with Beta releases with the top guys in the country. So, trust me, I can tell an angle on those XYZ plans visually, that was also part of what I had to do decades ago to land aircrafts "dead sticks" (read on what a PTL or PTS might be, for your info it's in French but you rather be good and have a compass in the eye so to speak), plus 3D models are also accurate to a limit and theories can be beaten, not only by surprising 3D but also programming. I particularly like this bit, "camping" only applies to long range firing does it? Invisicamping is more often used in this game than long range firing because most players doesn't have the knack for it, they lack gunnery skills and prefer to hide behind an island or smoke screen and carpet bomb HE in your general direction. So that's not CAMPING according to you? Playing like a TD in WoT? I start engaging at long range because I can score from this range, if people can't and need to rush behind the first rock to hide then tough, it's only a different play style and it doesn't mean they score more. In fact they loose every opportunity to hit the same target until they feel it's safe to fire. You said enough, you have a play style and think everyone should play this way, you do not believe those theories, game mechanics and the rest of it can be beaten, that's your lot, I know different, as a player and as a CG technician.

​Get lost, they are big enough to know what to do without you trying to launch a flame war, guys like you should stick to knitting, you're the WoT best flame bater and developed a psychopathic habit of trying to get to me, stalking me in topics and the rest of it, you need to consult. You lost the plot there you'll get down in pain over here the same way.

Well, I have to say purely for supporting the W.G 3D artists and a bit by patriotic flame I splashed the dosh for it but... I cannot comment on how good the ship really is since i'm stocked playing Co-Op due to memory issues. I took her for a spin in average playing condition, high ping, lag and low frame rate but still manageable against the bots and here you go: Fired 8 HE (always with the first salvo). 1 hit. Then from closer range, 60 HP. 14 hits. Total:13 pen, 2 Citadels, 2 kills, one Nurnberg and one Warsprite, 33554 damage in a short game, very much the same in the second one. Considering the condition I don't think it's that bad but I tried to evaluate its strength in Random and had to con/alt/del it, I had no game at all from the start to well after 5mn into the game, I probably was killed on the grid. I play USN Cruisers and BBs, i'd say this ship is just as good as them, guns in the bracket of a North Carolina when it comes to precision, not worth, not the best at long range but i'm used to this, good reload time, front armour is OK, so you can engage bowin' at mid to short range. But obviously, I still have to take her vs real players to have a better idea. All in all my impression is for the moment positive... ​Dunkerque is fast for a BB, you might want to give her a go and at £17.50 it's a bargain, to tell you the truth I bought an Atlanta and hated it, I sold it after a couple of games, waste of time and dosh for me, some might be able to play it tough. About the "French line", the funny thing about "Transfer commanders between ships of the same nation without penalty or retraining", is that as far as I know there isn't any other French ship in the game...

Lucky you. I just got myself a Dunkerque for £17.50 and after the very first game (marginally playable in Co-Op due to memory issues still not resolved yet) it's a bargain. Now since we were talking and comparing guns, Dunkerque is said to have good dispersion but frankly at long range and from stock, it does no better than N.C (first impression), a Iowa should be equal if not better. First game: I fired 8 HE (always with the first salvo) get 1 hit, then from closer range, 60 HP and 14 hits. Still managed 13 pen, 2 Citadels, 2 kills, one Nurnberg and one Warsprite, 33554 damage in a short game. From my humble PoV, bar the fact that Dunquerke is a premium with the XP and credit bonus coming with it, a N.C is equally good with guns, long or mid-range.

I'm stocked in Co-Op for cause of low memory, it's barely playable at tVIII but I managed 29% hit ratio with it, N.C guns are not as inaccurate as one might think, they simply requires more care when aiming and because of perhaps lower shell velocity, make it more difficult to hit when lead angle is important. Matter of getting used to choosing the target that make it easier for you, and with this ship I start to widen my play style from long rage to a more aggressive one, bow'in in, got enough hoooomph with the front turrets to cause loads of damages.

Well it's easy, you have the pros, the semi-pros, the wanna be-pros, those who follow all the above because it's fashionable to be with the guy and those who follow the guy who knows the guy for the same reason. Between all those the room for newbies like you and me is rather narrow, you can afford playing tX but only if you support your tX with other tiers earning, in all the lines, there are good earners. In WoT it's the British Cromwell which had this characteristic of earning well (at least when I was still playing it) so I kept mine although I didn't like it at all, then I DID finaly come across a tX I could play without loosing too much and even making some credit as I progressed, namely the WZ-121 with its 122mm doing LOADS of damage and with a hell of a pen capability. Find the equivalents that you like to play in this game and you'll be fine. This was "my idea" and how i'm going to go through this. ps DONT forget to collect and mount your signals, they can reduce cost, increase earning and XP for your ships, when you got a container, go for signals/camo each time and use them on the most expensive ships to run. To the other what's SO foacking funny about that? Don't you have anything else to do than throwing stupid sarcasms as replies?

​Common story. I can recall sticking to my role providing AA cover for a BB in my New Orleans (previous to this damned memory heavy update I still could play this game without crashes, lag and other hellish issues). At the end of the game I was near bottom of the score list but I prevented two successive air raids on the BB I escorted and shot 18 AC during the game, including spotters, fighters, bombers and torpedo raiders from the CV. Of course, I didn't have much time to shoot ships for a good while, although I did help get rid of their DD and BBs, but not as much as usual, and more toward the end, when the red attack had failed, as I wasn't able to position myself in a way to get to enough of them especially the inivisicampers hiding behind their islands and spamming us with HE, I also had to try to avoid constant shelling from both Cruisers and BBs, not an easy role to play but I like it, especially with this ship and the Baltimore. I'd say it is a lot more difficult to play this way than to go after own score, shooting at targets and causing as much damage as possible, since I like playing the Baltimore in this role now (max AC shoot so far is only 12 but I got so many issues playing it it's almost impossible to do anything, when the game starts at all), I can tell you that the stats at the end of the game doesn't bother me, I know what impact I have in the games and it matters more to me. As I am looking forward to get a Des Moines I guess I will be playing more of this kind of games, regardless of the final score, if I can offer support than my ship is well capable of providing then be it.

I'm not getting any closer to get the Des Moines as my system marginal memory is causing the game to be unplayable from tIV and then I only can play Co-Op. I practise my gunnery skills with the Danae which I find quiet OK and got 4 GB of Corsair on their way, to be followed by another 4BG when I got the budget in a week or so, can't wait...

Oh, I like the sound of the guy who think doing what he doesn't do is stupid, perhaps it's why you don't manage to citadel those two ships even by accident? Thanks for the lecture but no thanks if people tells you they managed to do it and how, you might just as well wonder if all your theories are perhaps lacking somewhere, in the "stupid" zone where people does what you don't because you consider it a "camping". So two things are apparent here: You and your pals never managed to do what average players did (???), you do not use the spotter plane, (so from which point exactly do you start engaging since you will have to travel closer?). What I consider as camping is what you geezers mostly do, hiding behind an Ireland and staying there firing. Me? I maneuver to keep those targets where the probability of having an angle steep enough are higher, I did understand you first time but I wonder if YOU can read anything that's not in accordance with YOUR PoV. I DONT do HE and the frustrated fireman thing, what makes me tick is not seen the "set in fire" logo but "citadel" logo so when I get one I notice and YES I do things from the "stupid" zone to maximise chances of this happening, and it works, especially because we're talking about a couple of ships with moderate deck armour not to mention belt. Another little detail: As I was saying earlier, from the front a very long range, the deck BEHIND the front bulkhead will let the shell through, that's enough to hit the citadel with a good chance of causing damages, then the author of the article is yet another HE fan, not my cuppa. Reading the commentaries is also interesting, in shorts there are two schools the HE and HP, i'm not at all in HE so I practice trying to pen at long range, which HE guys doesn't, obviously you can't do it if you don't try it and more to it, you can't believe it's possible. I have learnt long ago with WoT that W.G mechanics are everything but 100% reliable, I know I can citadel one of the two ships in question because I've done it, I explained how, and i'll keep trying and doing it.