Karasu_Browarszky

That would have to be very recent because I remember being sunk by a submarine ramming me not so long ago.

Yes, that is true. If there is a plus to having subs, it's the fact that remove one DD out of the lineup, potentially. Also even this plus is relative, because the battles tend to be 'top heavy' as it is. Overall, the battles tend to be too short. The accelerated time factor is what causes this, and this is a problem at least for me, because I'm not exactly good with reflexes and multitasking. I prefer more tactical play styles than what WoWS generally tends to provide. Subs as they currently are implemented, are percentagewise more player than any other class, except potentially the CV's. What I mean is that their potential can only be unlocked by players with high enough skill. The not-so-skilled players may not even be a problem for me when facing them in battle. IMO, sub vs CV interaction needs to be more of a thing than what it is. These classes should prioritize each other. Also, if people discover that BB's are better sub hunters than DD's, it will further increase the problems with 'BB heavy' battles. Furthermore, it makes the battles even more campy, at least until people have a rough idea which flank the sub is, unless there are more than one of them, of course. You do actually have a very good point there when you put it like that... It is possible, though, from my point of view, that this is exactly what's been taking the game in the wrong direction. It's deviated too far from the reality and historical accuracy to function as a the type of game myself and many others would like to have it. That's why I think it is important to 'anchor' this types of games to some representation of reality, to prevent them from 'drifting' in a developmental sense. All of this worked, initially, pretty well when we only had two nations and a very limited number of ships in the game. Problems have tended to compound as they've expanded, and carried out various reworks without a corresponding rework of the game mechanics. The game feels out of step. Yeah... well, when the party will be over hope the last guy remembers to switch off the lights. I should maybe start looking into WT...actually. I play, still, but not a lot and in a heavily reduced way. Mostly operations and low to mid tiers. I could play flying cuckoo clocks, but they wouldn't keep me interested very long. I would not sense the kind of connection that I've felt with, say, war games. Sounds a little bit morbid but there's some sense of historical relevance with the vibes I'm getting out of those.

Cheers!

That's WG we all know and ...er...

So... what's the difference?

That reminds me of something but I better not say aloud what.

This works, that's just your opinion. Your choice. Not a fact. What I am telling you is a fact, not an opinion. It's just your taste that is causing you to think that way and you have an opinion. You are alone with that opinion because I say so. Hundreds of millions people are playing this popular game and they don't have the problem you have because they don't think like you do. You think wrong, which is why you have an unpopular opinion. I'm just adding this this paragraph here because I think my post is otherwise too short. It needs little filling up. Maybe I should add one or two for good measure. You may not get my point otherwise. The thing is. The majority of us thinks this is not how you are saying, because subs are fragile. There is no problem with sub vs. dd interactions. Your opinion, not how it is in the game. The subs are struggling as it is and will need to be buffed. WG have otherwise done a fabulous job with subs. They just need to do a little better. Greetz Fun

Easy solution, don't fly any of those flags. On the other hand, I'm a little worried if this would drain the credits relatively fast.

Finally a chance to play 10 battles with the same ship in the same amount of minutes!

Yes, the DD is at risk, both from the sub but also from other enemy ships. It would be best to keep your distance, try to track the sub and get a team mate with airstrike to drop a payload on the sub. It just feels frustrating to play a DD like that. But the subs are very good at spotting. What WG should do is rebalance the whole game, especially now that the subs are in the equation. Will they do it? Not a snowball's chance in hell, in part because they may not even know how to do it. Maybe that's also down to the fact that they've been catering to your personal tastes for too long. Well, as you say I need it for immersion, but IMO the game needs it for coherence, a reference point. It's obvious to me they don't have any reference point any more which explains why the state of the game is what it is. You seem to like it that way though... Lolololol... the Duck Event is perhaps a lot more realistic that even I like. But if you don't like it, let me put it this way. Trying to play randoms these days feels to me like playing the ducks feels to you. I think on the practical side of things, it accounts for more than just a matter of taste. This isn't about the argument simulation vs. arcade any more. Err... I think we need to take WG's statements about player numbers with a grain of salt. I wonder whose tastes better match those of the wider playerbase. A lot of the wargames have been simulation games, particularly those involving ships, tanks, planes etc. Those involving individual soldiers, the FPS type of games, have mostly fallen on the more arcade end of the spectrum. Admittedly, these are single player titles, as online multiplayer games are actually somewhat rare, or at least I haven't run into a lot of them. It's possible that a lot of the allure of WoWS comes from the PvP aspect of the game, meaning that what the typical player focuses on has more to do with the player vs. player action than anything else. In other words, they could as well be playing with flying cuckoo clocks that shoot out marshmellow candy than with ships for all they care. Yeah, well. I think I'm not alone when it comes to people who actually want to play a ship focused game that falls under the naval warfare category rather than a casino bingo with flying cuckoo clocks or something. To each their own, at least I'm not having to pay a red cent on this game anymore, so I guess that counts as a marginal plus.

I typically like slower paced action myself. There was one time that I kind of found fast paced and action packed playing an interesting diversion, the savage battles. It seems I like the modes which restrict ship classes more enjoyable.

Haven't played that many brawls myself, I haven't found them to be the type of format that I find enjoyable. Except on that one occasion when we had that all BB lineup and got to play with them on the Ocean. That was a fun update we had back then. No subs. No CVs. No cruisers. No DD's. No Jack. No Rose.

Uhm... Never thought about diagonal approach, maybe because I still have nightmares from the Kaibokans directly homing in on my position like a pack of blood hounds... And it never occurred to me to stay back either, because I always thought the point was to drop the depth charges on the sub.... Well, I've played a lot of fantasy games... though even those have a kind of realism to them, the sword and sorcery stuff and so on. I've also played arcade games, haven't always liked them but some have been very good, some moderately good, with either massively downgraded realism... and actually sometimes that's what's made them more enjoyable than what similar games with greater realism have offered. I remember fondly games like Wolfenstein ET, OMF, Way of the Exploding Fist, Pitstop II, Bruce Lee and er... Raid over [edited] which I was fortunate enough to get a smuggled copy of as the game was outright banned for ... special considerations. The Crux is actually about playability with enough realism to provide some suspension of disbelief. I'm one of those players who have to be 'in' rather than 'out' when they are playing, whatever it is that I happen to be playing. More than anything I would emphasise those two things, suspension of disbelief (immersion) and playability. Currently, WoWS is lacking in both crucial areas. Yes, I can agree with that. However, any game needs an in game universe in order to function. In reality things work, tried and tested with real ships, real ammo, real weather conditions etc. Reality works. If you start from reality and make adjustments based on that, it's much less easy to go wrong than if you discard reality and come up with some fanciful non-reality as the basis of your mechanics. Things do not work, or if they do they will need crutches and gimmicks along the way. Games can be easy, or they can be difficult. Even challenging games can be a lot of fun but only if the challenge comes from your opponent or the protagonists, not from substandard game development and broken design. I have to disagree with what you are saying, because the key word is playability. It does not matter if the game is 75 % realistic or 25 % realistic if it's only 50 % playable as the result of poor development choices made by the devs which is what I am suggesting. As an arcade game, WoWS is currently reminding me of 'Avoid the Noid'. And that's a game I didn't like that much.

Suggest you put an industrial coffee machine on standby if you plan to reply to Sunleader. I'm in the process of drafting my own forum response currently. I'll just need to restock my fridge, catch a quick nap and load up the coffee maker and I'll be all set to go.

Yes, for the most part. You could call that accidental team play factor. A bit like a scorpion.... Got it, thanks. Many suggest the best tactic is to get as far from the sub as possible. Still, it's not the way how I prefer to play this game so that leaves me in a quandary. Well, that explains it, in a way. Likewise. It matches with known reality. This is also something I can call deterioration. The game's a mess. I beg to disagree, unsurprisingly. Indeed. Likewise. Unless we have specific figures showing the metrics. However, the changes themselves are a fact. Again, remember that I've been here since 2015 so from my perspective the game has deteriorated since those days. Call me a simple old fashioned guy then. Immersion and fun are complimentary, not mutually exclusive. Only this is not fun, except within the terms of very limited content such as the operations. The problem here is that if you deviate from realism beyond what is needed for the game to playable as an arcade title, you will need to be able to create a matrix for the game which can reliably fulfil the functionality of an alternate reality to provide the gameplay with the framework needed. To put it more simply, they have to have something in place of reality do draw upon and base their game on. I leave it for you to figure out which is the easier, more reliable way to develop an action game with complex features. Yes, this only means that the subs compete with the DD's for the same slot. They bring nothing new to this game as such, except an additional set of complications. I don't see it that way because they'd only be doing what they'd be doing anyway. The number of players per each team would remain the same nonetheless. Well... the concept of the CV's is not exactly new in this game. Many say it's 1 vs 23 more correctly. The truth is somewhere in between. Also, I doubt there's much you could do against a unicum player 1 vs 1 in a given situation unless you were a unicum yourself. I would be outplayed easily. A little too easily, in fact. I've learned that if I really want to sink a sub I better only play ships that have the airstrike. However, that would be selflimiting. What I've chosen to do instead is pretty much leave the randoms as much as I can. Yeah... I really need to just start playing the ships I personally like and leave other considerations aside.

Oh the DD will be spotted. It's a very unlikely scenario where a DD engaging in ASW in WoWS could go unspotted. Most likely your greatest risk are airstrikes, though, or someone else using their guns on you. Yes, I'd say you are right there. How awful, they are literally forcing you to shotgun them. However, earlier you said this: So at which point exactly will you be forced to shotgun the DD? Hmm... interesting. Thanks for the suggestion on tactics. So this is if the DD is somewhere between 2 to 6 kms? No, that's not an opinion, it's an observation. You could argue not the correct observation from your point of view. Try to learn to know which things are opinions and which are not. This is confirmed on video by a former dev, I think he was in charge of the game economy in the early days. Back when this was a solid title. You do like that word, 'opinion' a lot. I can only speak for myself, but I don't 'dislike subs', I've played a lot of sub focused games before, some good, some not so good, but none so atrociously bad as the way WG has implemented the subs in the game. If they absolutely have to have subs in the game, despite the fact everyone knows they don't fit in with the gameplay (remember this is what the Chieftain said, so it's not just my 'opinion' although I suspect you will make into his), they'd have to a lot better job than what they've done. This is the Machine Zone effect. Ever wondered why? Seriously. There are some changes people bring up as being smart ones, but overall the pattern of decline is pretty clear. Every 'rework' they've done has plunged the game a few marks lower on the scale. Er... no. These bad decisions have a compounding effect. They haven't died down, as you say. What I think has actually happened there are fewer subs around compared to before. Okay.... Typically, an arcade game takes key aspects from reality and simplifies them for popular appeal. I've played both simulation games and arcade games to know the difference between those, in broad terms. However, WG games are not actually arcade games, they are more like electronic board games. This game would be better if it actually were an honest arcade game, but the mechanics are way way too complex for this be an actual arcade game. Likewise... Well, the examples you gave are not gamebreaking, they might be immersion breaking which is bad, but not entirely catastrophic as opposed to something that is gamebreaking. I can give you two very good examples of things that WG has done that are gamebreaking; CV rework and the subs. That, at least, is my considerate opinion (see, I made it easy for you), but I think there are many others who will readily share that opinion even if you perhaps won't. If we are talking about the subs, yes, there are two complaints to be made against them, a) their implementation is unrealistic in the extreme, even compared to how the other classes, even the CV's, are represented in the game, and b) they are detrimental to the gameplay. WG should address these two complaints, bring the sub implementation more in line with the other classes and solve the gameplay related issues that the subs cause. It's a gimmick, though an effective one. They don't work because there is no team level counterplay to the subs. Or rather, if there is, it requires team coordination on the level that the playerbase is lacking. Also, it would require the teams to effective 'freeze' all other operations while they focus on hunting down and eliminating the enemy subs, which could easily take the first half of the 20 time which is reserved for the battle. Such fun.... They aren't actually the logical choice even considering the game mechanics. The logical choice are the CV's. It has not gone unnoticed by the players that WG is prepared to go to extreme lengths to limit any potential of sub vs CV interaction. No, the issues remain. They might work if this wasn't a multiplayer game. Good points, so it's more to do with how many OP ships there are in a given class, and whether there's a higher percentage of them in CV's and subs as opposed to the other classes. Another factor to consider is whether the ships are OP under all circumstances or only under verific specific conditions. It's nice to actually see you confirming what myself and many others have been saying all along. The issue is more complex, because a DD or any other ship that encounters a sub in spotting range and gun range of the enemy ships also has to consider that they will be fired upon. A lot. I'm a qualified potato then. I'm just not sure whether that's an observation, fact or just an opinion. But do people play those weak ships or subs? Once they figure out which ones are weak and which ones are strong.

I assume this would depend on which category you fall under, the team or the potato.

So the brawls are more random than the randoms are?

In other words, what you are saying that other things being equal, WR is a reliable predictor of how things are going to go.

Even those rear dropped ones aren't that good, and you can end up being rammed by the sub like I did....

I wasn't specifically talking about throwing the match, though. I meant just failing to win.

Thanks. It also says this " Counter measures against the Jeune École system consisted largely of destroyers, designed to deter and destroy small torpedo units... " My interpretation would be that when the screen drops, the naked BB screams 'foul play!'. I'm not sure why the tactical aspects are so poorly implemented in WoWS, I don't know if they are any better... on the other side of the fence, so to speak. Did they foresee that the typical team wouldn't be able to grasp the rudimentary aspects of teamplay, or were they just too lazy to think about it. The same as they've been too lazy or inept in so many other ways but I digress....

As I said, we can only make the blanket statements on two classes, subs and the CV's. As you yourself point out, the rest are invididual ships.

Correct. Again, correct. 100% correct. But the reasons are not quite what you say. The issue here is sub vs. DD interaction which is poorly designed and implemented. What you are saying is partly right, the interaction is dangerous for the sub, but it's not because of the DD, it's because of the airstrikes as you say. The DD is at great risk, and only partially because of the sub, the greater risk comes from the DD being spotted and being fired upon by the enemy, potentially even gaining the attention of the enemy CV. A DD cannot safely disengage, don't you ever play DD's yourself? No, my opinion is that the subs don't belong in the randoms/coop. That's an opinion, please learn the difference. It's the explanation you mostly hear, and the explanation I mostly offer same as others. The thing is, we don't know a better explanation why someone would want to take a dump on their own goods. There's some info to back up this explanation, because we know Machine Zone became involved with WoWS development a few years back and... it pretty well coincides with the point in time when this game started to go downhill. Fair enough, it's up to @Bear__Necessities then if he's willing to oblige you with that. Then you are aware of the issues even if you seem to wish to frame the issues surrounding the subs in a peculiar way. Yes, it's an arcade game, but I think that explanation only carries so far until it becomes just an excuse for bad design and implementation. I think the subs are potentially gamebreaking on their own, and in conjunction with the pre-existing issues what we get is a broken game. It makes some sense, depending on the tactical situation. It's just that the tactical gameplay in this game is almost completely broken. Most randoms are rather stale, resembling more a carefully rehearsed and choreographed minuet than a battle. And no, the subs are not a solution to this even if WG possibly had some intention of the subs producing more dynamic gameplay, the effects have proven to be rather the opposite.