Karasu_Browarszky

Look at what you cannot see!

Gameplay is better, the maps are better, you can still do the missions. I like to play tiers 5 to 6 as well tiers 8 and 10 the most.

Remember there are different aspects to consider, and please try to focus on these aspects separately or the whole discussion will just become a mish mash of who said what who meant what.... 1. Economic aspects. 2. Gameplay aspects. 3. Dutch aspects. Granted, they overlap a little, e.g. the Dutch and Gameplay can be mixed up UI or missionwise. Same for the economics, if you want to have all the Dutch ships in the game, you need to keep the Friesland and spend on the upcoming Groningen. On the other hand, you'd have to do that even if Friesland were moved to the Dutch tree, though, if the ships were identical, it would make no sense from the gameplay PoV, and very little sense from the economic PoV being effectively waste of resources. All of this is complicated because we have to deal with resources such ships, commanders, XP, currencies as well as other factors along with hurt feelings. What I don't consider this to be is a balance issue, more of a resource based problem.

How come that thing won't just keel over?

Hahahahaha.. completely unrealistic! If this were an arcade game, you could have 10 klick secondaries on the Mikasa.... er.... this is an arcade game... now I am confused... It seems WG is implementing the 'arcade' concept rather selectively....

The problem here is that game is lacking most tactical elements you'd expect to see, as apparently 'arcade' is something cannot have anything tactical about it. For this reason, you don't see DD's doing any torpedo runs or acting as coherent unit in battles (nor do you much see that from the other classes either...). BB vs. DD, there are a couple of problems if you think of main gun fire, because you'd have to aim really badly as a DD to miss even at near maximum ranges, whereas you'd have to be an aiming wizard to hit the DD with BB main guns at 10km+ ranges. As for the DD's pushing close, well... few actually need to do that, especially on the higher tiers. And if they get too close, it means someone on your team isn't doing their job, at least in my book it does. And as for the secondaries being ineffective, that just underlines the fact how pathetically they are implemented, because while you wouldn't really expect them to do well at longer rangers (6 to 10 km), you'd expect them to get very effective at point blank ranges. Which.. of course, they aren't, because we got this 'arcade' thing going on.

To me it wouldn't be about the range per se, it would be about how effective they are against DD's. The problem here is, that DD's can do their HE spam well outside the range of the secondaries, which largely defeats their purpose. Apparently, this is the sort of 'balance' that the 'community' wants, though. @Beastofwar IMHO, the DD main gun ranges should be comparable to the BB secondary max range, because we all know that it is far easier for a smaller ship to hit a bigger ship than the other way round. https://www.navygeneralboard.com/how-battleship-secondary-armament-evolved/

If you look at what @Takethatyoubeast posted earlier: It's interesting how the gun crews were mostly futile because of lack of range finders, and being too low on the hull. Compare that to the in game destroyers, and you get the idea how distorted the dodgy spotting mechanics in the game are. It seems to me, that the effective spotting range of the DD's without radar should be somewhere around that 10 click mark or so, depending on weather/visibility conditions. Whereas the taller ships should be able to spot the DD's much much more easily. Someone with better knowledge might be able to come up with more accurate ranges, but as a rule of thumb it seems to me that the ships should be able to spot almost anything large enough within the radius of their main gun range. By spotting I mean detecting, not necessarily able to reliably hit.

Take note of two things before you do: 1. We have not seen the Groning yet, so we don't know if it is a nerfium (you know if it comes with the 'nerf warning' like all the new premiums do) which makes it worse than the Friesland. 2. You will need to retrain a new captain for it.

Dunno, I've seen some CV's pushing for caps early in the battle, we don't want them to be too stronk, do we?

Both expired but thanks anyway.

Must be for some real big shot.

I don't think swapping the Friesland for the Groningen is a wise move. The thing to do here is for each and own to figure out which option is most to their advantage. The way @T0byJug put it earlier, makes it clear that for most people that means doing nothing, changing nothing, but each of us will have to make that call for ourselves.

If you are fortunate (or.. unfortunate...) enough to have the Friesland, I'm sure any of the available captains would work reasonably well, true. I don't normally, though, have gun only DD captain builds, so for me the option of having a dedicated captain seemed to make more sense. It never did, of course, from a strictly pragmatic point of view, for someone who prefers stealth/torpedo DD's.

That's right. Not much we can do about ships we've bought so far, but think twice before buying anything with a 'Pan' in front of it, otherwise you may find a flute in an awkward spot.

Okay, from that point of view it can be said that the way it's now going to be, the least number of people get affected by the change. I can understand that even though I myself tend to match captains and ships nationwise. This creates fewer problems for those people who have opted for something different. Still.. Do you think there would have been a problem if WG had actually given the players the choice whether or not to transfer the Friesland and her captain, either ship only or both together, from the Pan-European tree to the Dutch tree. I know they would have had to rewrite the relevant files for having two identically named ships in the game and it may be that the code might not have allowed for it in WoWS, even though in WoT they could do that with the Rudy. The choice, this option is what I would have liked to see personally.

You can lose something in the sense that you are not getting something you might have expected, a tier 9 Dutch premium DD with a dedicated and trained captain. Game mechanics wise this loss is negligible, but it is a loss. Like I said, you will lose the ability to use the Friesland in potential future Dutch related missions. Another thing which you lose is related to 'user friendliness', as if you choose to keep the Friesland, the ship won't show up if you set the carousel filter to show 'Dutch ships'. That is for those people (mostly likely Dutch) who may want to be able to do this. Economywise you will definately lose nothing, as you point out, because all your resources will remain intact. From the point of view of in game economics, all other options such as opting to exchange the Friesland for the Groningen or, worse yet, choosing to keep Friesland and later free XP the Groningen, will be catastrophically bad.

Yup. This is the option where you stand to lose the least. The only thing then, game mechanics wise, that is, is if there are going to be Dutch specific missions later on where you cannot make use of the Friesland. However, those people who feel they need to have the ship in the Dutch tech tree and opt to exchange it for the Groningen, will stand to lose much more.

That situation is actually the exact reverse of the current one. When the captain moved with the ship, the change allowed you to make wider use of the captain on the other Pan-European ships. That's why what they did then was better than the solution we are now getting. @T0byJug at least some of us have a dedicated captain with skills picked especially for the Friesland; made sense as the ship is so fundamentally different from all the others.

Perhaps we could see underwater cities too!

Well, when you put it that way it is a far better result than what we might have got. The only resource based thing we might lose is the Friesland and even that due to our own choice of opting to exchange it for the Groningen. As things stand, the best cause of action would be to keep Friesland and not change it for the Groningen, if you want to minimize the effect of this change to yourself.

Only if the actual dolphins cannot be seen same as the ships' crews.

What exactly do you think makes it unfair? It's called having an identity.... I'm kind of envious of people who have the luxury of having an identity they can claim, be it Dutch or European.

Spotter planes that can't actually even spot their own ****.

My suspenders were cut when I hit my first island...