Trainspite

You are correct on that one sir!

I can't really agree, while Outclassed by the Panther and Tiger, the Churchill can definitely hold its own against anything else the Germans had in numbers. And how often did you run into a Tiger? The Firefly, Challenger, Archer, and Achilles were ways of getting the potent 17 pdr on tracks without waiting for the Centurion to come along. None of these are bad tanks at all, even if WoT may purport them to be. To be honest- I would prefer to fight in a Tiger, if that means I will spend most of the time trying to get it to move, and not getting dive bombed by an IL-2, Typhoon or Thunderbolt.

Considering how Bismarck is in the tree and Tirpitz is a premium, expect the an improved admiral class as a premium if there is one at all. Hood is likely to be in the regular tree.

I would disagree with that, because N3 just can't compete at tier 10, N3 vs a Yamato is not going to end well for the N3. Her turret layout, while giving her a smaller citadel, is extremely awkward to play with. Her speed is very, very slow for tier 10. 23 knots is not enough. Her Armour is inferior to Yamato and other tier 10 Battleships. Her guns are good, but that is about it really. N3 would not be fun to play at tier 10, considering that Yamato beats N3 in almost every aspect. L3/L2 on the other hand is a better match at tier 10.

Well, this is what I think could work... M2 at tier 8 is a problem though... Edit: KGV (1939) and Vanguard are far too overpowered for tier 7. Tier 8 is fine for both, and Vanguard could even work at tier 9.

Disappointment for you guys, but I can't see the Colorado class being moved tier at all, its almost certain it is staying at tier 7. Hopefully Buffs will come for it soon. Tennessee is likely to be at tier 7, in the next US Battleship tree, and South Dakota(1939) is very likely going to be a tier 8 BB coming after Tennessee.

Same applies both ways. 1 lucky shell hit that found its way to Hoods magazines and we all know how that went. Anything can be lucky because of fate etc. Bismarck had her flaws, such as her stern armour being far from sound, and if you hit her a few times in the right places, she was quite easy to cripple, i.e. PoW hit her fuel tanks, KGV, hit her FCS, Rodney smashed her forward end. Her communications were easy to disrupt if hit. Far from weak in most aspects, but no ship has no flaws.

As Jingles would say; "Fair Fights are for suckers!" A KGV can get Bismarck in a fight, but nothing is ever as simple as that, there are various factors affecting a battle. And if you have superior numbers, why not use them? Bismarck has the edge over KGV in armament and speed(not by much 30-28) Armour Protection is about the same, but Bismarck is easier to cripple than a KGV. Based on what I know, its an almost even fight. And both should go at tier 8 in WoWs.

Arise, old forgotten thread! Slightly off topic I know, But I can't see much point in creating a new thread. With the first Brits expected in late 2016, I have been thinking about the first premiums to make an appearance before then. First off; Destroyers. Very easy considering the extensive classes of Destroyers. Especially at low tiers (2-3-4) with the Yarrow/Hawthorn/Admiralty/Thornycroft Ms, Ss, Rs and V/Ws. Some of the more likely candidates at higher tiers though, are: - HMS Ambuscade or HMS Amazon - Tier 5 - Any of the inter war standard designs (Cs-Ds-Es-Fs-Gs-Hs), presuming the A/Bs are at tier 5 and Is are at tier 6 - similar to how (Minekaze and Mutsuki are balanced). HMS Glowworm is possible due to her relative fame and difference from her class. - Town class Destroyer - Tier 3/4 A Wickes/Clemson/Caldwell clone, HMS Campbeltown may be relevant here. - HMS Cavalier of the 1943 C class as she is preserved. Other of the more well known destroyers of different classes are candidates, such as HMS Cossack (Tribal) are a possibility. Spoiler HMS Ambuscade HMS Amazon HMS Glowworm HMS Campbeltown (in her moment of glory) HMS Cavalier Cruisers: Again, low tiers are fairly easy, thanks to the tremendous quantity of ships the Royal Navy had during World War 1, such as the many Protected Cruisers, and scout cruisers. However at tier IV and above the list becomes more manageable. - Abdiel Class - Tier IV An interesting minelayer cruiser, blisteringly fast, but with only 6 4 inch(101mm) destroyer guns and no torpedoes. - County, London Subclass - Tier 7 (Or just HMS London as a standalone) - HMS Charybdis or HMS Scylla - Tier 5 Two of the dido class with only 8 4.5 inch (113mm) guns. - HMS Belfast - Tier 8 No explanation needed here really, Edinburgh Subclass of the 1936 Town class. Spoiler Abdiel class HMS London HMS Charybdis (Scylla) HMS Belfast Capital Ships are to come in another Post, this one has got far too long on my watch So then, capital ships. Lets start off with the Battleships and Battlecruisers shall we? This is based on the tech trees I created earlier in the thread (Page 1 & 3), so this is, is my opinion again. At tier 3: You have the original HMS Dreadnought and the follow up classes to her comprising of the; - Bellerophon class - St Vincent class - HMS Neptune - Colossus class and for battlecruisers, you have the Indefatigable class At least 1 of the above could make a decent tier 3 premium. Tier 4 brings two battlecruisers into the mix, HMS Queen Mary, and the Courageous class in their Original form. HMS Furious as originally intended with 2 18 inch guns could make an appearence, as an extremely derpy premium. HMS Agincourt could make appearance at tier 4 or 5 as well, with that monstrous broadside of 14 12 inch guns, she could be quite fun to play. Tier 5 brings 2 ships that were seized/bought by the Royal Navy, HMS Erin and HMS Canada . Both are similar to the British to the Iron Duke and King George V (1911) classes respectively as well. Tier 6, we already have the Warspite, and I doubt any of her sisters/cousins will make an appearance, all of them being less famous and can be lumped into their two classes. Warspite was fairly unique in this respect. Tier 7, I would not be surprised if one of the 3 other proposed Admiral class (Not Hood) makes an appearance, as a premium counter to Tirpitz, (Bismarck & Hood etc.) Tier 8 or 9 could bring HMS Vangaurd, as the last of the British Battleships, as she is awkward to place in my tech tree, as well as any of the numerous inter war designs that the Royal Navy thought up before the Washing Naval Treaty. Spoiler St Vincent class HMS Courageous HMS Agincourt HMS Vanguard (1941) Aircraft Carriers: At tier 4, some of the early conversion escort carriers like HMS Archer, HMS Activity or the Avenger class And at Tier 5, you could find the Attacker or Ruler classes (Bogue Clone) And for a tier 7 or 8 premium: you could have the Centaur class, or HMS Victorious, as an American flavour Carrier, due to her service in the Pacific. Spoiler HMS Avenger HMS Puncher (Ruler class) HMS Centaur HMS Victorious And that concludes what I think could/should be the first British premiums coming next year hopefully As usual the Criticism booth is open, as is the Compliment booth. Just to say the Majestics never served in the royal navy, they were sold to foreign navies before they were commissioned. Not like I didn't know that, yet its a British design, built in British shipyards, with British names and therefore is included in the tech tree.

Ah, I'm keeping My Albany, Its not too bad, and quite a lol-ship for charging headlong into battle just to get in range! However I needed a port slot to accommodate some new ships, so instead of selling Albany, I sent St Louis to the breakers yard. I regret nothing, I always liked Tenryu better anyway!

I still can't say much good of her... The accuracy is ridiculously troll like, and I'm fed up of the 1k damage hits on Clevelands at 12km. Still when it hits hard, it hits hard-. Survive-ability is pretty good, but I find she is very dependent on RNG not giving her the short stick. However she is very much my main money maker at the moment. I still only bought her because of the family relations I have with her....

If people can adapt to the awkward shell trajectory, the Cleveland is still very much the monster it was in the CBT. I can't count the number of times I have been jumped open and incinerated by a Cleveland. I very much look forward to the day it gets buffed to its historical stats and moved to tier 8, where it belongs in the US Light Cruiser line.

I never said it didn't hold true for all sides did I? But it seems that either the people agreeing with you are all incredibly shy, or there are less of them. Just the general feeling I get. I'm still not trying to be Arrogant though... And I'm still not trying to claim that it is specifically against you, but from my experience, it doesn't work out in favour of your views. I'm not saying they are with me either, they have their own views, like anyone else, they just correlate more with mine. Well, I can't take back my opinions on what you have said. Some things you have said are still pretty unbelievable to me. And Remember experts will be experts, but there are always contrasting opinions. There will be an "expert" out there that completely disagrees with Mr Saxton. Mr Saxton also has opinions as well, you have to take everything with a pinch of salt. While I don't deny Bismarck had better guns than any of the British Battlewagons at the time, Britain wasn't really focusing on Battleship development as much as other nations. Bismarck, while being probably more advanced than most British ships, wasn't that far ahead to say that she could outclass everything. A KGV can give her a run for her money, even if it would probably end up worse off. (Both ships in WoWs should go at tier 8 though) You also have to remember, that while Straddling shows skill, it can also take luck, there are many factors that affect hitting and straddling, so anything can be counted as luck or skill really. At least we haven't been like many others on the forums who get threads closed for their behaviour, This conversation has been quite civilized, kudos.

Of course I have affection for my native navy, but I also understand that it the RN is not all that is around. That would be very rude of ignore the KM, the other KM(There you go JeeWeeJ, you can thank me later), the USN, the IJN, the RM, and MN, and the countless others. But you are wrong about me being biased towards the British, The Brits made some terrible mistakes over the years. For example, I'm quite Critical of Beatty at Jutland- he made far too many errors. I'm not afraid to admit that. As for others, I can't speak for them, but stop labeling anyone who disagrees with you a RN Nut. Its not fair to say that, until the people in question have spoken. Plus, there may be others just lurking, but deciding it is not worth the effort to write down their opinions. As you can see, I'm not a regular poster, I just stand by and observe most of the time. Well, with the Germans around the corner, the next major navy to come out is the Royal Navy, so the Hype train for the RN will have begun. You will note that there are a few Bismarck Disappointment threads around. I expect that the KM hype is slowly dying.... But yes Royal Navy. What is not to like ^^. I have a few specific ships I would like to get. I'm looking at you Kent.

Well, from what I have seen good sir, of the people who have posted their opinions on forums, the majority of posters seem to think that the battle of the Denmark Strait, would have been as I said above. There we go. I've clarified it for you ;). I'm not trying to speak on behalf of others, I'm merely stating that from what I have seen, the above is the case. As I said before, you are the very first person I have met (that is not a total fanboy) that has predicted that theoretical outcome of the Denmark Strait. "(unsurprisingly, as I think you wont trust anything that has something good to say about anything German) " Woah, Woah, Stop making assumptions about me Sir! When I first started playing Games about WW2 (Blitzkrieg Anthology FYI) etc. I went straight for the Germans and their Campaigns, as I wanted my company Tiger 2s. I drew little pictures of StuGs massacring Crusaders and T-34s. Since these happy times of mindlessly being the Young Rommel, I have -A) Grown up, and B) Read many a history account, book, and internet article to the point which I would say I know a fair bit about Warfare. I'm not anti-german at all, its just I find the Germans during WW2 to be severely over hyped from reality. For example my Tiger 2s in Blitzkrieg were awesome insta-killing Pershings and Easy 8s etc., and then I found out that in real life, the likelihood is that only one of the six tigers would have made it to the battlefield. Unfortunately Bismarck has fallen into the same trap due to her fame.... She was a fine and great ship, but definitely not what many people crack her up to be. Tl-dr: Please don't make assumptions about me. You don't know what is on the inside. ^^ Too bad that I had never paid much attention to Navyweaps, I mainly got my Naval knowledge from books, not the internet.

Should have gone to specsavers! (If you are not British then you will not get this- look it up) Under Armour Penetration, here is what I see: Armor Penetration (800 kg (1,765 lb) AP Shell) Range Side Armor Deck Armor 0 m (0 yards) 742 mm (29,23") 4,572 m (5,000 yards) 616 mm (24,26") 19.3 mm (0,76") 18,000 m (19,685 yards) 419 mm (16,50") 75 mm (2,96") 22,000 m (24,060 yards) 393 mm (15,49") 104 mm (4,15") 27,000 m (29,528 yards) 304 mm (11,98") 126 mm (5,02") Note: Based upon the USN Empirical Formula for Armor Penetration and a muzzle velocity of 820 meter per second (2:690 feets per second) Armor Penetration (800 kg (1,765 lb) AP Shell) Range Side Armor Deck Armor 10,000 m (10,936 yards) 510 mm (20,08") 20,000 m (21,872 yards) 364 mm (14,33") 21,000 m (22,966 yards) 350 mm (13,78") 25,000 m (27,340 yards) 308 mm (12,13") 30,000 m (32,808 yards) about 120 mm (4,70") 35,000 m (38,276 yards) about 170 mm (6,69") Note: Based upon German face-hardened (vertical) and homogenous (deck) armor penetration curves and a muzzle velocity of 820 meter per second (2.690 feets per second) Me thinks you have been getting your yards and m(km) mixed up! Either that or something is up with your website, which then shows you have got an unreliable source. ^^ I also take this with a pinch of salt, like I do with anything on the internet. Esp. since you find it on a website dedicated to Bismarck. I might be expressing my opinion, but it is the opinion of the majority, and so far, you are the only person(excluding Bismarck wehraboos) I have found holding your views (or similar). I find your comments amusing, we seem to be trying to disprove each other without actually giving our evidence, as you are doing the exact same "mate". You are saying that I have no explanation, when I can say the same for you. Please stop trying to 1-up my comments, it isn't making you look any better. I have my reasoning, You have yours, I can publish mine, if I want, but what difference would it make? I could have demolished your points ages ago, but I'm pretty lazy, To be honest, I can't be bothered to, I can if you really want, just give me the time, I don't like spending too much time on these forums, when I have more pressing matters like my studies. Unfortunately, I did my research, and it seems that majority of people do not agree that Bismarck would have splatted both of the Brits as they came steaming up, please read up on this, I don't just go spouting nonsense as you would say, that would make me look like a fool, and I'm pretty self-conscious (Which could explain my low posting on the forums) I'm pretty sure that there are people who disagree with me, but looking back at this thread, there are definitely more people questioning you, and your facts, then people questioning me, and those who question you. And how are my arguments based on how you think that I think you are German biased, (Although all evidence points towards this, I have given you the benefit of the doubt) I'm simply stating my views, on the subject - which at the moment seems to be your views(and mine). ¬.¬ Maybe if stop trying to play me down I will respond in what you would see as a respectful matter on the subject...

It might have something to do with marketing, not that much of Wargaming's moneys comes from Blighty, so Britain does tend to take a bit a back seat sometimes, and are not represented as they were in real life.

I was expecting that kind response, you don't seem to understand though. I could respond to all of your points alright, and prove my points, but the point is, I doubt you would listen, or even change your views, which is pointless. I did say that in my first post remember. (That sentence had far too much "point") And Do I have to give an example of what I disagree with you on? Practically everything you say to me sounds ridiculous to be honest. "and that is that there was a very slim chance of HMS Hood coming out of that engagement alive, heck even the chances of the PoW escaping were slim" - That is entirely your own judgment, on outdated and over exaggerated points. The fact is, It was 2 battleships, vs 1 BB and a Heavy Cruiser. And yes, however accurate the 1 BB may be, it is still 2v1, and the odds are against her. Bismarck was hit, and if Hood had not exploded then, the likelihood (Bad puns, Bad puns) is that Bismarck would have sustained Heavy damage, as would have Hood most likely. 1 or both of them would have been sunk. This is my take on it, and most other people who aren't - I won't say wehraboo - um, favouring the Germans- take this view as well. There are many more statements of yours I could demolish, example 2: "Finally as they say: Good shooting brings straddles, good luck brings hits" I won't take down this one to spare your dignity, but please be a little more careful about what you say, there is a reason why there are quite a few people disagreeing with your comments, and just you defending them. -Also, the website you gave me did not back up your claim that Bismarck could pen 420mm of armour at 20km - You have got your data mixed up ;)

The problem I see here is that a battleship can wreck a cruiser, if the cruiser is stupid enough to give his broadside, but with a competent cruiser captain, or the battleship getting bad RNG on his shots, the cruiser can confidently close the range and fire away, which is frustrating for the BB captain. For example, I had 2 Clevelands and a Pheonix chasing down my Warspite, yet despite one of the Clevelands showing a near flush broadside, I could only just hit him, and when I did I hit him for only a 1000 damage or so. BBs can't reliably hit a Cruiser, and even if they do, there is no promise of damage. Cruisers can reliably hit a BB, which is the problem.

Sorry, but looking at your posts Tirpitz, what credibility I had for your comments left me. Maybe I'm wrong for posting this, but I have to disagree with you on so many levels its not funny Most of the stuff you post I find quite unbelievable, but hey, your opinion, I can't do much do change that. I think we shall agree to disagree here, I have my reasoning and you have yours. With all due respects.

Yes. Jutland. WW1. Anything can be called Luck, and anything can be lucky. However, you seem to think that in a BB on BB engagement, a BB will explode fairly regularly.... Ships that went to Magazine explosions thanks to enemy action: Invincible, Queen Mary, Indefatigable - Jutland 3 Hood Bretagne - (Sitting in harbour at mers-el-kebir) This doesn't seem like BBs going up all the time ¬.¬ I would be interested where you got those figures from. Because in my books, the armour belts Hood and Prince of Wales can stand up to Bismarck's shells. Her guns are good, yes, but I doubt they are that good. Lutjens had the chance to try and kill the PoW, but you have to ask yourself, was it worth it? Why risk the ship? Prince of Wales may have been suffering teething problems, but she could still bite. Lutjens may have been too passive, but I can see why he decided not to pursue PoW, and try to sink her. And even then, there is no guarantee of sinking the PoW. What name calling: That 2nd post had no name calling in it. Completely unwarranted. 1st post I called you a fanboy. However looking back through this thread, it does become painfully obvious to me... Despite that most people disagree with you. And Bias? Yes, since I'm British, my affections lie with the RN, but the RN gets a lot of stick for some reason on these topics. Some of it is undeserved.

Yes, we can call it LUCK. Hood was was well enough protected against Bismarck. Everyone seems to think she was a totally outdated design, but in reality she was very well armoured for her kind and type. Not up to 1930s battleship standards, but well enough for the close range combat that the Denmark straight took part in. There is a reason she is sometimes classified as a Fast Battleship. When both parties are zeroing in on their target, how many times in large battles did a ship suddenly explode within the opening minutes of a battle? Its very rare to get hit in the magazine and blow up that quickly. Yes accurate gunnery helps but, it CAN'T be expected. Did the Crew of the Bismarck expect that Hood was going to explode like a fire-cracker? Even when they knew Hood was an older ship. The Hood is far more capable than most people think, she did not earn her nickname from nothing. From the capabilities of the ships, you can't say that your Wonder ship Bismarck would just shrug it off, if Hood had not exploded. You are overrating the Germans capabilities. As I expected. Did the Germans expect to sink Hood? No. They were prepared for a hard fought battle. Or they would run away, as the orders for their mission said they should do so. Lutjens would have preferred to run away from the Hood and PoW. He did so the other times he saw the white ensign. So why should he try sink PoW, risking his Ships in the process, for what?

Ahem. Inevitable? Inevitable that a shell would go clean through Hood and somehow get her magazine? I fail to see how that isn't lucky... Holland had done practically everything right, and a freak shell or circumstances tears his ship out from under him because it was "Inevitable"? Maybe it was likely to be hit, but definitely not inevitable. The shell that blew up Hood is just as lucky as any hit, like Warspite striking Guilio Cesare or Scharnhorst hitting Glorious. And Traditionally, German ships have excellent compartmentalisation, which means they are very hard to sink, but impractical for the crew, and none the less easy to put out of action. Bismarck, Scharnhorst, and the all the battlecruisers at Jutland (bar Moltke) are examples of this. Disclaimer: Mind you, you are Bismarck fan boy number 1, and I'm not really sure if it was worth posting.

I might have Captaining that Kawachi. I definitely had a tier 6 stacked game in it, where I was the only tier 3. Didn't do too badly either...

Not entirely true, HMS Zenith still floats (Just)