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EwoudK

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  1. Hello everyone! Here I have compiled several Spanish battleship designs that should be able to become a brand new Tech-Tree in WoWs. I am really interested what you all think of it and feel free to ask me any questions :) Tier 3 España class - Length/breadth/depth: 140m/24m/7.8m - Displacement: 15.700 tons - Speed: 19.5 knots (15.500 S.H.P. Boilers, coal fuel only) Armour: - Belt/Turrets: 203mm - Deck: 38mm Armament: - 4x2 305mm/L50 - 20x1 102mm Description: The only actually built dreadnought battleships of Spain. They were the smallest dreadnoughts ever constructed and perfect for tier 3 (España Class Battleships (1912), n.d.), (Conway’s All the World’s Fighting Ships, 1906-1921 - Google Books, n.d.). Tier 4: Reina Victoria - Length/breadth/depth: ? - Displacement: 21.000 tons - Speed: 21 knots Armour: ? Armament: - 4x2 343mm/L45 - 20x1 152mm Description: A class of three battleships to supplement the España class designed by Vickers as they became increasingly surpassed by dreadnoughts of other nations. They were supposed to be laid down in Great Britain but this failed to materialize due to the outbreak of the Great War. Their armour-scheme is unknown but likely similar to Vickers design 655 (Reina Victoria Eugenia-Class Battleship - Wikipedia, n.d.). Tier 5 Vickers design 655 - Length/breadth/depth: 158.5m/26.8m/8m - Displacement: 20.500 tons - Speed: 22 knots (Oil fuel only) Armour: - Belt/Barbettes: 250mm - Front/aft belt: 100mm/76mm - Belt at the lower ends: 130mm - Deck: 130mm Armament: - 4x2 381mm/L40 (80 rounds per gun) - 14x1 152mm/L50 - 2x1 75mm Description: A battleship design considered during the second naval program of Spain, just like the Reina Victoria. It was eventually discarded in favour of the Reina Victoria. Notable is the 381mm/L40 guns, with a smaller length than the 15-inch guns of British battleships. The guns are of a larger calibre than other battleship-guns at tier 5 but if the Japanese can have a balanced battleship at tier 6 with 410mm guns this should not be an issue. It would actually be a boon to the Spanish tech tree as it offers a tier 5 battleship unlike any other tech trees (Spanish Dreadnought Projects, n.d.). Tier 6 Vickers design 777B Battleship - Length/breadth/depth: 182.9m/31.7m/8.8m - Displacement: 29.500 tons - Speed: 25 knots (50.00 S.H.P. Boilers, oil fuel only) Armour: - Belt/Barbettes: 305mm - Belt at the lower ends: 102mm - Deck: 178mm - Bulkheads: 51mm Armament: - 3x2 381mm/L42 - 10x1 140mm/L50 - 4x1 102mm Description: Unlike the previous battleship design, design 777B carries 15-inch guns identical to those of British battleships. Just like designs 777A and 778A/B this design was part of the third naval program of Spain, from 1921. This ship and the other mentioned designs were never built. While it carries 2 less 15-inch guns than other tier 6 battleships it should easily make up for this with its manoeuvrability and other characteristics to make a unique battleship (Spanish Dreadnought Projects, n.d.). Tier 7 Vickers design 777A Battleship - Length/breadth/depth: 201.2m/31.1m/8.9m - Displacement: 33.500 tons - Speed: 25 knots (50.000 S.H.P. Boilers, oil fuel only) Armour: - Belt/Barbettes: 305mm - Belt at the lower ends: 102mm - Deck: 178mm - Bulkheads: 51mm Armament: - 3x3 381mm/L42 - 10x1 140mm/L50 - 4x1 102mm Description: Essentially design 777B but larger in dimensions and weight and triple turrets instead of twin. This increase in survivability and firepower easily makes it a capable tier 7 battleship (Spanish Dreadnought Projects, n.d.). Tier 8 Vickers design 778A Battlecruiser - Length/breadth/depth: 271.3m/31.7m/9.3m - Displacement: 46.500 tons - Speed: 33 knots (180.000 S.H.P. Boilers, oil fuel only) Armour: - Belt/Barbettes: 305mm - Belt at the lower ends: 102mm - Deck: 178mm - Bulkheads: 51mm Armament: - 3x3 381mm/L42 - 12x1 140mm/L50 - 4x1 102mm Description: A battlecruiser design proposed in the third Spanish naval program of 1921. It essentially has the same firepower and protection as the tier 7 but with increased size, weight and significantly higher speed. HMS Vanguard carries exactly the same guns at tier 8, except 1 less barrel, meaning this battlecruiser should have no problem fitting in (Spanish Dreadnought Projects, n.d.). Tier 9 Spanish Litorio - Length/breadth/depth: 237.76m/32.82m/9.6m - Displacement: 40.724 tons - Speed: 30 knots (128.200 S.H.P. Boilers) Armour: - Belt: 280+75mm - Deck: 90-150mm - Bulkheads: 70-280mm - Barbettes: 350mm - Turrets: 380mm Armament: - 3x3 381mm/L50 - 4x3 152mm Description: The famous Italian Litorio-class battleships were also planned to be constructed in/for Spain, this however never happened due to WW2. While more suitable for tier 8 this ship should work fine with some creative liberty and adding something like a main-battery reload-booster like on the French up tiered battleships (Litorrio Class Battleships, n.d.), (Battleships: Axis and Neutral Battleships in World War II - William Garzke, Jr., William H. Garzke, Robert O. Dulin, Robert O. Dulin, Jr., Robert O Dulin Jr - Google Books, n.d.). Premium: Tier 7 Vickers design 778B Battlecruiser - Length/breadth/depth: 246.9m/31.1m/8.8m - Displacement: 39.000 - Speed: 31 knots (140.000 S.H.P. Boilers, oil fuel only) Armour: - Belt/Barbettes: 305mm - Belt at the lower ends: 102mm - Deck: 178mm - Bulkheads: 51mm Armament: - 3x2 381mm/L42 - 12x1 140mm/L50 - 4x1 102mm Description: A miniaturized version of the tier 8 battlecruiser. With a smaller size, lower speed and three less guns it should be a fine premium battleship at tier 7 for the Spanish battleship line, as due to their similar characteristics the playstyle will likely be very similar (Spanish Dreadnought Projects, n.d.). Conclusion: Spain can provide enough actually built/designed battleships to fill in a battleship tech tree from tier 3 to tier 9 without resorting to making things up. Creative liberties will need to be taken to get the appearance and AA-upgrades of the ships but this is identical to almost all battleship-lines. All the ships share several design-aspects, but how this will translate to a unique identity in-game I cannot tell. The only real shortcoming is the lack of a tier 10 ship. This will most likely need to be solved by Wargaming taking a look at all existing Spanish battleship designs, other Spanish ships like the Canarias-cruisers and coming up with a fictional ship that reflects all Spanish warship characteristics. The most likely result is probably a 3x3 406mm/L50 battleship with a main-battery reload-booster and good armour and speed, potentially a sort of super-Nelson. However, that is just speculation based on the rest of the line. As for the names of the ships and their possible gameplay-identity I will be interested to hear what suggestions you can provide in the comments. References: - Battleships: Axis and Neutral Battleships in World War II - William Garzke, Jr., William H. Garzke, Robert O. Dulin, Robert O. Dulin, Jr., Robert O Dulin Jr - Google Books. (n.d.). Retrieved June 5, 2021, from https://books.google.nl/books/about/Battleships.html?id=TAyRtKKRR_cC&redir_esc=y - Conway’s All the World’s Fighting Ships, 1906-1921 - Google Books. (n.d.). Retrieved June 5, 2021, from https://books.google.nl/books?id=V2r_TBjR2TYC&pg=PA378&redir_esc=y - España class Battleships (1912). (n.d.). Retrieved June 5, 2021, from https://www.naval-encyclopedia.com/ww1/spain/espana-class-battleships-1912/ - Litorrio class battleships. (n.d.). Retrieved June 5, 2021, from https://www.naval-encyclopedia.com/ww2/italy/littorio-class-battleships/ - Spanish Dreadnought Projects. (n.d.). Retrieved June 5, 2021, from http://www.gwpda.org/naval/spnbb001.htm
  2. The same source you use for 240mm also states the 283mm guns as 28cm. Just because the calibres are rounded up or down on official documents does not mean that the calibre itself was changed to 240mm or 280mm. If you look at http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_Main.php you can see that all the 24cm guns of Germany were actually 238mm in diameter, even though they were classified as 24cm. The Dutch navy and coastal artillery used exactly the same guns as the Germans and it is never stated that the Dutch navy increased the calibre of its German guns by 2 millimeters. Logically it simply does not make sense that the Dutch would bore out the guns by 2mm and buy entirely new 240mm ammo (ammo about which not a single trace of its existence is found) when they can just buy the 238mm ammo.
  3. Wow, thank you so much! I think Celebes is still a quite realistic ship (except for those two points), its probably what De Ruyter would have looked like if she was made before the economic crisis. Especially as 4x2 150mm guns were at least talked about in the De Ruyter design. A knot of extra speed on Kijkduin and Eendracht would make sense, given they were supposed to operate together with the future battlecruisers. It appears the sources I used made multiple mistakes in the layout of single or double AA-guns. However, I still think removing 6 torpedo tubes from a historical ship makes no sense. Its not like gun-turrets are removed from other ships to make them 'more balanced', so why should that happen to the Dutch cruisers? If it is really such a problem they can make the torpedoes really bad, I just prefer as much historical accuracy in my game as possible. There is also no source stating 240mm, just 24cm just like in all other German 238mm guns, so 238mm should still be more accurate. The same sources state 28cm whereas the guns are 283mm, and Wargaming did not change the calibre to 280mm in that case either. Wow, I always though there was no actual final design for the battlecruisers, interesting to find it, thanks! I indeed overlooked to mention the AA-suites with 20mm guns, I shall change that now. However, what exactly do you mean with 'reversing the math'? In any case, thanks for your comment!
  4. WG really did not do a bad job on these cruisers, most points are fairly minor and easily addressed. Just because most ships in a line do not have torpedoes does not mean that all of them should not have torpedoes, especially when those two cruisers were constructed with them. Its historically accurate and its not like the ships would be overpowered with torpedoes. They are really not out of place, especially when you consider the Dutch will get Tromp, another cruiser with torpedoes, as a premium ship.
  5. Hello everyone. Here I have collected all the historical inaccuracies I could find on the Dutch cruiser branch as shown by Wargaming. Several inaccuracies are the results of game balancing and ship-upgrades so I put them in cursive. The remaining inaccuracies I have labelled as ‘Unhistorical’ and I would like to see them changed before the Dutch cruisers are released. In the end I will explain my reasons for the most prominent inaccuracies. Tier 1. Van Kinsbergen: - Reload speed for the 120 guns should be 6 seconds instead of 6.8 (Game balance) Tier 2. Gelderland: - 75mm guns should be part of the AA and secondary suite (Hull upgrade) Tier 3. Java: - Top speed should be 31 knots instead of 33 knots (Unhistorical) - Should have a Fokker C.XI-W floatplane (Game balance) - AA-suite should contain Bofors 40mm and extra 12.7mm guns (Hull upgrade) Tier 4. De Ruyter: - Maximum reload time should be 10 seconds instead of 8 (Game balance) - Main battery should be (very mediocre) heavy AA with 60-degrees elevation (Game balance) - Numbers of all AA-guns should be doubled (Hull upgrade) Tier 5. Celebes: - Maximum speed should be 31 knots or higher (Engine upgrade) - Dutch navy never used 25mm AA-guns (Unhistorical) Tier 6. Kijkduin: - Main battery should have 8x2 150mm guns, not 152mm (Unhistorical) - Maximum reload time should be 10 seconds instead of 7 (Game balance) - Main battery should be (very mediocre) heavy AA with 60-degrees elevation (Game balance) - Maximum speed should be 32 knots instead of 33 knots (Unhistorical) - AA-suite should have a maximum 12x1 40mm Bofors, not 14x2 40mm (Hypothetical hull upgrade + game balance) - (Stock) AA-suite should contain 8x1 12.7mm guns (Unhistorical) - 2x3 533mm torpedo tubes should be carried on the sides (Unhistorical) Tier 7. Eendracht: - Main battery should have 10x150mm guns, not 152mm (Unhistorical) - Maximum reload time should be 10 seconds instead of 7 (Game balance) - Main battery should be (very mediocre) heavy AA with 60-degrees elevation (Game balance) - Maximum speed should be 32 knots instead of 33 knots (Unhistorical) - AA-suite should have a maximum of 12x1 40mm Bofors, not 17x2 40mm (Hypothetical hull upgrade + game balance) - (Stock) AA-suite should contain 8x1 12.7mm guns (Unhistorical) - 2x3 533mm torpedo tubes should be carried on the sides (Unhistorical) Tier 9. Johan de Witt: - Main battery should have a calibre of 238mm instead of 240mm (Unhistorical) Tier 10. Gouden Leeuw: - Maximum speed should be 34 knots instead of 33.5 knots (Unhistorical) - Should have a floatplane (Game balance) - AA-suite should contain A: 7x2 40mm, B: 7x2 40mm + 10x2 12.7mm, C: 7x2 40mm + 8x1 20mm or D: 8x2 40mm + 8x2 12.7mm instead of 12x1 40mm (Unhistorical) Most points should be self-explanatory but here I explain some of the more unclear ones: While Celebes was a real design that was supposed to be built, historical information on it is hard to find. However, since it would have operated as a flagship for the Java-class it likely would have had a top speed equal or superior to them. 25mm guns were never used by the Dutch, not even on the Java-class, so Celebes most likely also would never have had them. Kijkduin and Eendracht were under construction when Germany invaded the Netherlands. Their armament was supposed to be 150mm guns from Sweden. During the war Sweden confiscated these guns, bored them out to 152mm and used them on their Tre Kronor class. When the Dutch finished their ships (as seen in the Zeven Provinciën) they used the newer 152mm-version of their previously intended guns. However, Kijkduin and Eendracht should still carry the pre-war 150mm guns. The tier 9 Johan de Witt is based on a 16.000 tonnes armoured cruiser design with 24cm guns. These guns would have been ordered from Germany and actually be 238mm in diameter, just like several WW2 and WW1 German army and naval guns that were classified as 24cm but actually were 238mm in diameter. While close to being historical, this ship is essentially a fake ship based on real Dutch armoured cruiser and battlecruiser designs, therefore it cannot be directly compared to a real design and no other historical inaccuracies can be addressed. Tier 10 Gouden Leeuw is the project 1047 battlecruiser. This ship was designed with a top speed of 34 knots normally or 33 knots in tropical waters (due to a loss of boiler pressure in hot climates). Its speed is a compromise between these two figures and is fine, but the maximum speed should technically have been 0.5 knots higher. The battlecruiser had several AA-suites proposed, but the one on Gouden Leeuw is unhistorical and should be changed. Just like the battlecruiser, the top speeds of Kijkduin and Eendracht could be explained by 32 knots being in tropical waters and the 33 knots being the regular top speed, but I have not found any proof for this. The same holds true for Java but there it is even more unlikely as the ships was actually built in its original configuration. The tier 8 Haarlem appears to be a complete unhistorical fabrication by Wargaming, although A-class cruisers with 20cm guns were considered by the Dutch I have not found any indication of such a ship actually having been designed. So, there is a historical basis for its existence, but not for the exact design itself. Feel free to discuss any point I have made or point out things I have missed. Sources: https://netherlandsnavy.nl/ http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNNeth_Main.php https://openlibrary.org/works/OL4209584W/De_strijd_om_de_slagkruisers_1938-1940
  6. EwoudK

    Dutch tech tree

    Yes finally! It looks like the tier VIII will be a complete fabrication by WG but other than that it looks super promising!
  7. EwoudK

    Is a Pan-European tech tree wanted?

    Isaac Sweers is (according to me) needed for the future Dutch destroyer-line, same for the Tromp itself. But where did you find that De Zeven Provinciën would get 2x3 152 mm guns!? I never came across that configuration.
  8. EwoudK

    Is a Pan-European tech tree wanted?

    Wargaming simply wants an easy way to add new premium ships from new nations for you know, money. Grouping them together at first is an easy way to introduce them and to make it comfortable for a player to purchase premium ships which don't support their own nation's tech-tree yet. My personal guess is that they want to introduce an Austro-Hungarian battleship and a Dutch cruiser. Probably "SMS Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand" as a tier 5 battleship. It's arguably the best Austria-Hungary has to offer and doesn't compromise any battleship-line (it's simply impossible for Austria-Hungary to get a battleship-line, even if you include ex-Austro-Hungarian nations you could only make a destroyer-line). If Wargaming wants to create a Pan-European battleship-line they won't need to worry about low tier ships anyway. SMS Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand As for the Dutch, I think we will most likely see "Jacob van Heemskerck" as a tier 5 cruiser or "De Zeven Provinciën" as a tier 7 cruiser. These two ships are unique and won't be needed for the (future) Dutch cruiser-line according to what I think the most likely Dutch tech tree will be. Which can be found here: (Shameless self-promotion, I know, but it's for a good cause...)
  9. EwoudK

    Dutch tech tree

    Don't forget to check out my new tech tree if you liked this old one:
  10. EwoudK

    Dutch tech tree

    KH-2 can always be called "Kijkduin" if Wargaming wants to give her a Dutch name. One of the Eendracht-class cruisers was originally called Eendracht until some name-changes.
  11. EwoudK

    Dutch tech tree

    As with all tech-trees, some Dutch ships never left the drawing board and thus lack their own name. I have listed all the ships in my tech tree without a proper name here and have given them one that I found most fitting. I primarily looked towards historical names that are fitting considering their type. Then I chose the names that sounded the best to me. Battleships: The Netherlands never operated dreadnought battleships but they did operate several classes of pre-dreadnoughts. I have listed the names of these ships that haven’t appeared in my tech tree yet here: Koning der Nederlanden, Evertsen, Kortenaer, Koningin Regentes, Hertog Hendrik. One possibility is: -Tier 4 battleship: Evertsen (Dutch admiral) -Tier 5 battleship: Hertog Hendrik (Dutch duke) -Tier 6 battleship: Koning der Nederlanden (literally meaning “King of the Netherlands”) Koninging regentes: (“queen regent”) the original ship was commissioned at a time the Dutch queen was also a regent. It’s a bit too specific to be given to another ship. Kortenaer: (Dutch admiral) is simply left because I found the other names more fitting. Destroyers: Tier 5: This destroyer was a pre-design of the Gerard Callenburgh-class. This makes it most fitting that she gets her name from an unfinished Gerard Callenburgh-class destroyer. This is either “Tjerk Hiddes” or “Philips van Almonde”. I have chosen “Tjerk Hiddes” as it’s a simpler and easier name to pronounce. Tier 8: This destroyer was developed as a flotilla-leader for the Admiralen-class destroyers. Her design-process eventually resulted in the construction of the Tromp-class. Except this pre-design for the Tromp-class was of the same era as the Admiralen-class. Due to her connection with the Admiralen-class and the fact that the Dutch liked to name their destroyers after admirals it should be fitting to give her a name of an Admiralen-class destroyer that isn’t used in my tech tree. This leaves: Van Ghent, Evertsen, Kortenaer, Witte de With and Van Nes. Van Ghent seems like a good candidate to me as she should be reasonably easy to pronounce. Cruisers: All Dutch cruisers except those part of project 1047/323 have names. This just leaves the tier 7 premium and the mainline tier 8, 9 and 10 nameless. The Dutch didn’t have any real tradition when naming their cruisers. Cruisers were named after provinces, admirals, islands and some got names with symbolic or historical importance (such as “De Zeven Provinciën” and “Eendracht”). To me it seems like the best idea to use the last group when naming ships, as it allows for more unique names. Thankfully the Dutch have an incredibly rich history of naval warfare and thus many historical warship names. I have listed several fitting names from Dutch warships, primarily from the Dutch golden age. Prins Willem: Named after “Prince William of Orange” who led the Dutch during the Dutch Revolt and who was the first ruler of the Netherlands. Prins Maurits: Named after the son of “William of Orange” who continued to lead the Netherlands after his father died during the Dutch Revolt. Noted for being a very good army commander. Brederode: The flagship of the Dutch navy during the first Anglo-Dutch war. She was used by the famous admiral Tromp. Literally translated: “Wide-red-one” Gouden Leeuw: Literally “Golden Lion”, once the name of the largest Dutch warship in the 17th century. The lion is also the Dutch national animal. Batavia: Originates from the Batavi-tribe that lived in the Netherlands during Roman times and who are the ancestors of the Dutch. The name was used for several old Dutch warships and as geographical names across the Dutch empire. Most notably as the capital of the Dutch East Indies. The Netherlands was even called “The Batavian Republic” at some point. Hollandia: Named after the county of Holland which was/is the most prosperous part of the Netherlands and what most foreigners think of when you say “The Netherlands”. One suggestion: -Tier 7: Brederode -Tier 8: Batavia -Tier 9: Prins Maurits -Tier 10: Prins Willem Gouden Leeuw: a nice name but probably too hard to pronounce for non-Dutch speakers. Hollandia: the tier 9 destroyer is already named “Holland” so Hollandia might be a bit confusing. Feel free to comment if you find nice names or have other suggestions for naming the ships.
  12. EwoudK

    Fan made Dutch Navy tech tree

    The tier 5 DD uses Bofors Mark 6 guns with an initial muzzle velocity of 899.16 meters/second and a rate of fire of 10 rounds/minute. They are the same guns and turrets as on the tier 1 Van Kinsbergen. I thought you'd want to know
  13. EwoudK

    Dutch tech tree

    I don't doubt they will make an EU-tree, (as a matter of fact I'm working on one myself) but I don't think they will included nations that can have an entire tech-line on their own. Just look at World of Tanks. There used to be rumors of making a European tech tree with Italy, Sweden, Czechoslovakia and Poland but all these nations managed to have at least 1 line of their own. So what is the point of creating a European tech tree with two cruiser and destroyer lines if two of those lines consist of solely Dutch warships. It could be very likely that Wargaming creates a Pan-European tech tree first but that doesn't mean that they will not include a Dutch tech tree later. Sweden has already been confirmed to get a tech tree on their own with one destroyer line and some premium ships. The Netherlands has much more potential for a tech tree so I the Dutch will most likely also get their own tech tree.
  14. EwoudK

    Dutch tech tree

    I'm glad you like it, but why would Wargaming just use some Dutch ships for an EU tech tree if they can make an entire Dutch tech tree?
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