Pikkozoikum

I do, especially the immersion and scenery. The new AA effects are pretty awesome. I remember the first time, when they were added, I played Kaga torpedo bombers, approached a Queen Elisabeth and I could see the big gun fires of the 2 large vickers of that ship. That is so awesome, if you recognize that like that On Screenshots, animations often doesn't look that awesome, but I think you get the point

You might quote it. In case you don't know how. (I assume in another thread?) You click quote, then Ctrl + A selecting all Ctrl + C copy and Ctrl + V pasting it here.

Yes, and you always can describe a scenario from two sides. If you play counter strike and the enemy gets killed. you can always they, he f*cked up, or the player played well. You can play perfectly a match, but then you lose, because your team mates f*cked up You play without any mistakes, neither the enemy does, but he loses, because you got the better ship. So the enemy f*cked up, by having the weaker ship. You can always disconnect the responsibility from your own doing, and they, "it's because the others f*cked up" While taking the AA flaks has nothing to do with my active aiming, it still has to do with me -deciding to activate DefAA -to analyze is pathing and turn in a good position -skilling AA +flak. 11 Flak hits more than 5 He wouldn't [edited]up, if I would go with a no AA build and moving straight towards him. Well, afterwards you can always easily say "Oh it was that mistakes" That is an oberserver effect. Even know you probably would say "Yes, but it's obvious, I would never do that" - but then, how do you know ,that I use DefAA and an AA skill spec? You don't know, he didn't know, but then he could feel it. Yes, and the same did I. I observed the enemy planes, moved into a better position to not get rekt by bombers. My AA wouldn't have that effect, if I move max speed towards the planes and reduce the time inside the long range. So I can influence the long-range AA time, which can lead to more flak hits. The only thing is, that I can't aim manually, but I don't know, why that must be a condition. You could even say, that aiming with main guns is almost like auto aim. The vertical dispersion is locked on a ship, the horizontal is following the lead. And a dynamic crosshair is even telling, how far to aim. And then there is still dispersion. It's not a FPS, where good aiming is really relevant. Why is Petro broken? It's just op imo Petro just needs adjustments, for example removing the overpowered armor layouts. maybe at least reduce it to 32 mm, so the big IJN guns are more relevant again. In my definition broken would mean unplayable. If something broken is in the game, that it makes no sense to play it. I assume some would say "yes, that's the cv", but I don't see , that games with CV are unplayable. Why is that broken? Because if that is a broken mechanic, than the game is broken by default. There is all the time "damage" that can be only avoided/mitigated to some degree without any realiation Also the RTS CV was broken even more, imo. So it's better now. Less "broken" I remember a Halland, that wasn't spotted the first 15 minutes, and only then she got spotted for a few seconds to stay hidden the rest of the match. But I explained how? ;D Did I say 40k, I mean 60k... that was fun :3 ps.: I just noticed, that this kremlin has survival expert, lol I disagree. All the fun comes with enemies, who f*ck up. If an enemy doesn't f*ck up, and you play well, then it's a gameplay like two ships bow in camping and farming down their HP, until someone wins or retreats. And well, it's a see, it's not that bad. because what I showed is more likely, then people are here complaining about it. It also correlates, if AA would be bad (Like in RTS times for many ships), then I wouldn't have fun. In RTS times, I often had no fun. Though the AA back then was also only about CVs, who "f*cked up" in that aspect, it's not like you could manipulated the rolling dices of the plane kills. Yes, all about players, who f*ck up. I mean, he could miss the torps and play bad. But I would say, then he also f*cked up ;) This game is so slow, the gap between good and very good is imo quite small. It's mostly about players, who play bad. But in case of good players or very good players, they all know, when they can show broadside and when not. They know, when they are outnumbered or not. It's a difference, if games are fast paced like Counter Strike, or League of Legends, which not only need knowlegdge but also fast reaction. Not only by Aim, but also fast decision making.

Probably the right one. If the gameplay is so unfun, then I would look for a game, that has fun gameplay. Games are supposed to be fun.

tbh, if there are special even modes for "only BB", I woudln't mind it, though I also wouldn't play it. I like it in games, if there is diversity and espeically if there are different classes.

Well, nothing speak against that. Though I would like to play submarines generally in the normal modes ;D But I'm biased by other games, that had submarines. Was sub main in Stell Ocean :3 But you should also know, this is not even close a simulation, so an adaption in normal modes is very easy (Even simulations or more realstic games don't go with reality, in thos games you still often attack warships )

What are the facts, that they don't? If you ask them, they will also say yes. The "consumambles" are actually weapons, as far as I know. And it's common sense to add these weapons. In Steel Ocean they had also DCs and submarines. In Warthunder, they don't have submarines (yet?), but they have DCs as functional weapon. The the request, that BBs should be able to fight SS is a community request. There was a lot feedback, that BBs are "defenceless", which is actually weird, same scenario against DDs, though mostly all BBs don't get radar. What's the matter if a ww1 BB calls for an airstrike? That are float planes, that are coming in. And I think, that was a very common tactic, that float planes sweeped for submarines to sink them.

Tbh, all ships are easy to play. The difference is about decision making, map awareness and knowledge, which is mostly unrelated to the ship itself I suggested that as well. Maybe the ping works submerged against other SS, but maybe even not that. I think, that is only the case on T10,. The german SS actually moved around the same speed submerged and surfaced. And acutally, it's not that bad idea. From T9 to T10 is a quite big gap, imo. The T10s often perform way better. So the T10 SS need also a big improvement. But there are not that many parameters, which would actually matter. Submarines dont have much HP or armor, so how do you increase sustain? Only by speed. Though they could make the 10% or 20% slower I'm not sure about the mechanic, but sometimes you see it, sometimes not Cachalot as for example 15.3 knots submerged. It's probably a T10 thing That's an isse of Coop, might be better in randoms. Bots push forward and die. Match over. I know, but that's how it is, if any ship is hiding. I personally would actually like a "Retreat" button. If only one ship survived, then a Retreat button appears (only if the ship is not spotted) Then that ship can instantly leave the battle and gets a 50% refund on maintenance costs and 5% exp bonus. All enemies ships also get a 5% exp bonus. That's where I disagree. I don't even understand why this is a thing, that everything new is unaccepted by so many in the forum. That really depends on the DCs, also I think DDs should be a better counter to SS than Cruisers. If you needed 21 hits, did they hit far away? You can actually do direct hits on SS, they detonate on contact Technically they are not even worse, they only drop less bombs, but that can be also compensated with a ASW-module, if wished. Same reason, why you play ships without radar and bad AA. It's not like a ship has to counter every enemy. I guess. That's why it's good, that Petro didn't get DCs, oof

I double pinged a BB with Cachalot. All 4 torps hit the bow. 18k damage in total. Technically I would say, 18k dmg by 4 torps is quite low. But they are now very fast and they home. A T6 DD does the same amount dmg with 2 or almost 1 torpedo, but those are not homing. But also the subs could hit the citadell, even though that can be countered with DCP. I personally assume, that the speed feels good, but the dmg might be too high. Or keep the dmg, and lower the speed. I personally prefer that option. Reducing the speed by 5-10 knots. The more consist the torpedos can hit, the less dmg they should do. But this is all an assumption, maybe I'm wrong, and they are still too weak, or they are now balanced, or what ever @BLUB__BLUB

Of course, but if a SS have to kill a CV with no pings, I think the CV is able to kill the submarine with secondaries :D I mean, you need so many more torps then^^

Thank you! I hoped, that someone would find that. Because somehow I didn't :3

while I agree, there is still a work around. When you engage a carrier, you mostly know it early enough, so pinging as soon as possible. With the new torpedos, I don't know the timing, but I would send torps out after ~30s, maybe with new torpedos after 45s. and then 15 later you ping

But that's the thing, Against a DD you have no real defense mechanism. But on the other hand the torpedos are straight moving. SS torps are -Homing -Fast -Low to high dmg But also -Can be countered with DCP -The homing can activley run torpedos against islands -Have duo homing even less range than max range. Beside that, I don't think, that BBs are huge victims. I think they can do a lot against submarines. Well, how bad connection do they have? 140 ping? So 140 milliseconds, or 0,14 seconds? Don't know, if that matters much. Halland torps are also fast, should we remove those? Pan asian torps have very short reaction times, some other DD torps have also very short reaction times, If the connection is that bad, that it matters, then they will suffer from anything anyways.

I would say, yes, but not in an expectation of players. I think, some has 0.1s more reaction time, but it's all over a zero-change, in reaction time. Also I caluclated it not 100% correctly, it's only the the relation, that you can compare, not the acutaly value. It might be he case, that the difference is only 0,05s This will help the submarines a lot, while the reaction times is the "same" ( I say same, because 0.1s is for me irrelevant, or even less) 1) With old torpedos: You need to find the gap, where you can ping. A submarine can't ping, when the ship is behind an island. But this often leads to having the Torpedos running into an island, even if you launch the torpedos as late as possible 2) If you don't ping in time, but want the torpedos run a little around the island, then the ship is behind the island and you can't ping 3) With faster torpedos, you can launch the torpedos faster around the island and ping early enough, so the islands are not a super huge issue anymore. Maybe they are now "too fast", hard to say without testing it against players and having data, but a buff like that makes totally sense. So I don't understand the heavy complaints about a buff of a weaker class.

Actually I think the rework is finished since a long time. Though they keep changing. Similar to the Radar-change with the Delay or the AP pens on DDs. So it will be never changed in that meaning, I assume. Also I'm not sure, if that are even the same developers. If there are needed changes in mechanics, that will ge developers, that can actually change the engine or implement it in the engine. While Balance changes can be just some stats playing

That makes no sense, why would ever someone messure the effectivness of the AA by the number of attacks? The only thing, you could analize around that is, if the AA is strong, than CVs might be scared to attack. But I was never talking about, "I get rarely attacked, so thats why AA is good", I was talking about, how the AA performs, when I get attacked. In this context, it doesn't even matter, if broken op or underpowered. It was fun to play with AA Though I probably also have a different definition of broken op. The CV might be more influencial, but in my definition not broken op. To get the CV broken OP, it would need a big dmg buff, one shotting BBs etc. That would be broken The major issue, that I could see, is the spotting. I did a lot suggestions, how to solve it, but WG doesn't like those ideas, so that's what we have to live with. That's a weird view.... because nobody does anything, it's always the enemy, who fucked it up... xD Of course, he couldn't evade the Flak. But ships, that take broadside shots also couldn't avoide those. So they also [edited]it up. I activated the DefAA, I skilled for that, I moved into a very bad position for him (Broadside, but sailing away... I did a turn, when I saw the CV on distance approach this direction). So my movement made it worse for him, and more likely, that he [edited] it up. The best way is to move full speed away, then they are longer in the Flak, stuff like that is something, that you can do as surface ship. Well, I'm just less on the hater-train v_v Everyone does his own definitions, or an own valuation. For some it's op, if a CV does 5k dmg, for some not. I actually got lately quite heavy hits from a CV, first 5k, than 14k, later I think 5k again. Though the issue was not the CV. It was my team, that retreated, and the enemy team, that pushed and of course my stationary position in Shiki, that I couldn't leave. If I could think of an alternate scenario, than there are some way worse. Instead of the CV a HE-Spammers, that burn me down way faster or maybe even a Thunderer. But different definitions or not, I had fun, I showed that, no idea why this is such an issue for you. If I would show a 40k Shiki hit on 20km distance on a Kremlin, and I would say, this is fun, the reactions would be completly different. It wouldn't be about me, that I did good, it would be, that the Kremlin fucked it up + RNG

Ah, wasn't sure about that term I think one effect, that we currently have, that almost everyone is inexperience, that has to be considered. I personally had no issue with subs, especially the coop is more easy than anything else. Mostly fast over, like always A BB with ASW has easier times against a SS, than against a DD. A DD has to be really stupid, if that one gets killed by a BB alone. (Stupid in a case of making a weird mistake) A submarine though is quite slow. If it pings, the BB will know the position. Then the BB can head towards it and spot it, or just uses islands as cover. Even blind drops are possible. Some BBs did really close blind drops on me on PTS without knowing my position, only by ping direction. They actually missed horizontally, and not vertically. The guessed the correct distance, though for what every reason not the correct direction (which is shown by pings) And one a BB always hit me with ASW, while I didn't even use pings. I just send them non-homing, and he guessed alsmost correclty without any information Try to hit a DD without any information Beside that, there is no real rock, paper, scissor. Some cruisers can rekt BBs. Some DDs can kill cruisers. And some BBs even kill DDs. Same with SS. A SS can attack every ship, but can get killed by every ship as well. I don't know, but I think yes. But those weird decision, I guess that is the influence of a Team, which is maybe even influenced by managers. Do you remember any school, work, what-ever project? Where you had to get a consent as a team, but everyone had another idea? I think that can be an issue ,they have to find a solution as team, They will talk about ideas as a team. We could take the example of manual AA. I would like Manual AA, but I could assume, that they discuss these ideas on a table, and then 2 guys are like "Yes, manual AA could be fun", then one guy "Ye, but it costs additional development time", 2 other guys "It makes battles more complicated, especially for worse players, skill gap increases" -> boom declined.

Submerged, you mean periscope depth? Or did they changed that? Normally the submarines were extremly slow deeper like 50% of max speed. Or is that a T10 thing, because the germans have such a modern submarine. I think the german sub could move dived around the same speed like surfaced, the might designed it around that. Though 30.5 knots is still BB speed. No, I see no difference, if a Yamato, Shima, Stalin, Midway, Nimitz or U-69 is somehow hiding and extendending the match. If I have a 20 minute match, because we have 3 Yamatos and 2 Hindenburgs, then there is no difference. The match will take 20 minutes. SS or DD or what ever ship is hiding. And yes, submarines can hide, they are designed around that, but a DD can also hide. There is no difference, if a SS hides for 20 minutes, or a DD does it. Even BBs can hide or run away long enough to extend the match duration. It sounds just like complaining on a high level. If that is the biggest issue, then submarines are perfectly fine for the game.

Yes, but the torpedo reaction time is = Concealment / Speed I don't know how much torpedos are accelerated, guess with 3.5x we get close American submarine Balao, Tier X: Changed the parameters of torpedoes: Speed increased from 70 to 89 knots. Detectability increased from 1.9 to 2.4 km. Hope I don't calculate anything wrong 70 knots = 36,0 m/s (126 m/s with 3.5x) 89 knots = 45,8 m/s (160,3 ms/s with 3.5x) 1900/126= 15s 2400/160,3= 14,9s Here are the real values, found by @Hugh_Ruka 70 knots / 1.9km = 10.43 secs 89 knots / 2.4km = 10.37 secs Well, not sure if that are the true values, but doesn't matter, because the relation will be the same anyways, and as you cann see, it's almost the same reaction time, only 0,1s difference. But as I said, I don't know how much the game is accelerated, maybe it's even 4x While they are faster, you also see them earlier. Of course the speed is still a buff, because they might home "better", but as I said, it felt necessary and we will see, if it's too much or not.

What do you mean with "playtest"? I like submarines so far, they did tons of tests. Halloween, TST1, TST2, TST3, live Event-test, PTS1, PTS2 and now ranked. There is stuff, that I would design different, but they are playable and for they will be fun, even though I think they will lack in influence, if not the enemy will play in their hands. A terrible gaming exerpience, idk. It might be the same way a terrible game experience, when getting hit by torpedos from an enemy DD: Or getting HE spammed, or whats so ever. The only real negative thing was the the spotting from SS vs SS, but they already nerfed that, so maybe it's better now. A submarine is slow, especially submerged. Once spotted, people can drop all ther ASW stuff on it. Also the submarine is blind and has limited DivCap I see no difference, if a submarine hides for minutes, or a DD. If there is no ASW to kill a SS, then I would also expect the case, that here is no ship, that could engage a DD. We can't look at stuff that one-sided, that a submarine could hide for minutes, and ignore the negative stuff, that also happens with all the other ships. Otherwise there are still caps. I really don't see the issue there. That's complaining on a very high lvl.

Not much difference, when playing BB vs 2 DDs, though SS can be quiet easy to kill so far Also if the winning team has to chase any 2 ships, that are somehow in cover. Happens with every ship type.

Armor is not a good example. Would be more about to give Zao 10% dmg, and maybe 20% more reload. Every ship would be "nerfed" And actually, with this type of buff, I wouldn't even believe, that Zao would be broken. Well, maybe rather 10% reload Worse concealment means more reaction time and also a better planning how to react. That's the point, it was too easy to avoide the slow torps. That's why they buffed them. I played over 50 games on the PTS and it often felt like there is an issue with the torps, which imo gets solved with speed. There are so many options. 1. React to the pinging. Move full speed towards an island, and the torps might run against it. The pinging shows the direction of the torps. You don't have that against DDs. Also just move, when you get pinged. The torps might run out. going with 12km distance torps, the curving of the torpedo makes the distance even shorter, and when you move away, it's very hard to catch up. 2. Use DCP to avoide full dmg. You see the torps very early. If you can risk a usage of DCP, then use DCP and turn away. 3. If you can't avoide the torpedo, then use DCP shortly before impact. That reduces the damage extremly and also avoides floods. Maybe you can even time it in a way, that you can dodge the torpedos, while DCP is still active in case they would hit. Timing. There is a lot stuff you can do against these type of torpedos, what you can't do against normal torpedos. A normal torpedo already does the max dmg. If you go with the extreme, a shima torp does around 24k. The sub torps ~7k and maybe ~14k when a citadell hit. Beside that, they buffed the torpedo protection skill Submarines had mostly the issue to actually hit. So many islands are in the way, the slow torps tend to do even larger curves, and run often against islands, if a ship moves full speed. On open water, it's different, but as soon people start to dcp everything from the sub, the sub really struggles in doing dmg. And it's avoidable, especially with DCP. But without any DCP; I have no idea. Rahter I think you know it ;) I'm not sure, if it's still implemented, but maybe the homing breaks against BBs at a certain distance. But couldn't test that If they are too fast, they can nerf it, but first they need to test it, if it's really too fast. If I would be wargaming, I would give them 5 knots less, so people can't rant that heavy. The problem is, no matter what wargaming will change, people will rant. Not sure, what you mean with "react". The torpedo reaction time should be the same. They increased the concealment. The reaction from first ping to torpedo hit is shorter, but I'm not sure, how much that matters. Especially if they lower the speed a little for balancing A bb doesn't need to find a gap, it's about outplaying the homing. When they were slower an easy tricked often helped. The BB moves diagonal. When they are closer, the BB turns to the other side. The Torpedos couldn't follow to turn to the other side. That happend very often to me, they just outturned them. No idea, how well that works now with faster torps, but there is enough, that a BB can do. I think BBs have an extra protection against Torpedos, they were often harder to hit than cruisers. Like the torpedos stopped homing or something. But that would need some testing Some damage is unavoidable, no matter if you try to dodge it or not. Beside that, how you know, that it is unavoidable? DCP always works. But also do you know, how the current torpedos work against player? I don't know it, haven't seen them yet against players. I think, that submarines will be less influencial, unless you buff them to a mega op state. So even, if they are balanced, they will be a lower influencal ship type. Because of their range and boat speed

Ye, no. If you have 5 slow ships, and the last one is a DD, then he would survive for 5 minutes as well. Though in Coop, the DD might suicide rather. I had mostly very short games. Win by caps

If you buff Zao, all ships get nerfed, because Zao will have more impact. Why the number of torps? They have a set amount of torpedo tubes. Would be like you change the gun numbers on surface ships. That would be weird. Speed is something, that addresses a big issues, that submarines had in the PTS. About that issue, I even wrote in the feedback. That depends. I haven't seen the new torpedos in action yet. But it makes no sense to forbid a class to deal damage. Submarines have very low damage torpedos. Only when they hit the citadell, while 2 pings are active, the torpedos will do "normal torpedo dmg" and that can even be countered by DCP (Use DCP before the impact, they lose homing, but also 50% of the dmg and flooding chance with one move) So there are mechanics, that makes it harder, so in return you need something, to make it also possible. On the PTS it was a huge issue, that Torpedos were so slow. Maybe the overbuffed it, but buffing it, was the right choice imo. Why are they harder to dodge? They will be all at the same spot. It's not lke a DD, who spreads them. The pinging narrows them. If you drop them at the same time, they will be dodgeable at the same time. If you drop them one by one. The ship can adjust and just move away. Especially when the torps are many, but slow, it will be very easy to dodge.

Though why is it a big difference, if you play against 4 DDs or 4 SS? Or even 3 DDs and 1 SS? I mean, right now, we will have a SS hype, so there will be more subs, but in the end, I assume SS will be a niche class. Some BBs also have ASW planes