Pikkozoikum

And what is the concealment of DDs vs a submerged SS?

WHAT statements? I started this thread. you come here and you gave statements like a dev? Are you one? Otherwise, you are talkin absolute nonsense. The central statements, that I did. You are obviously not ignoring your own statements.... xD Buddy....you are assuming. I said is a possible scenario. Are you gonna tell me its.... not? It's an irrelevant, possible scenario. You complaint about outspotting, but going with scenarios, where a ships is already in a disadvantage by not taking the core-skills/mods. I also showed you, that you are wrong with your statement, that submarines outspot everything. Of course they outspot BBs and Cruisers, that should be common sense. But against DDs ,they don't outspot everyone. Only the german submarines have very good concealment, but not better concealment, than the best DDs (with skills, which are recommended) But then, I explained also, there will be bigger submarines. IJN subs are larger than USN. Russian are the size of USN subs. Those will be all around 6 maybe 6.2 km concealment. Yes, they have armament. Like every ship in this game. And the armament can be different. And there is way to play around this armament. Though I don't see, how this has somethign to do with outspotting a larger vessel. Today some subs torped me, while I'm in a BB. No sub hit me. You can play around it. Haven't played much cruiser, maybe I try them a little, but you can play around subs. Germans have ~10km distance, and if the torps have to curve, the distance is even smaller. USN have 12km on T8. Subs have to face you or move away, that makes them also inflexible, they can't just turn their guns. There is a lot how to play around a submarine. Using islands, using distance. (12km away from a sub is enough to be safe against a sub) But I will test a bit IJN crusiers now. I jsut had to much fun with Kii so far, or DDs

Well, it depends on the view. I personally see it as an arcade ship shooter. It has some good mechanics, it has some complexe stuff, but over all it's like a very acradey game with "heal" consumables, Radar consumables, DPS of AA (Dps values like in roleplay game) and so on. Very arcadey, especially for a ship game. But consider, it really depends on how a person is rating that. If I would compare that with Pacman, it's obviously not that arcadey ^^ I actually play without mods and with dynamic cross hair since years. Of course there are different mechanics, objectives and so on. But that's not the point, imo. It's a lot simplified and faster, than it would be in a simulation game. That makes it for me arcadey. You can even play this game without all the knowledge and still have fun. Just shooting. In Simulation, that wouldn't work^^ Just take War Thunder as example, even shooting in the RB mode can be an issue, without learning how to. In WoWS you just aim an press. In Warthunder you need to learn about the range finder but also about the physics. Shooting there is way more difficult at the beginning. But it also has not the arcadey physics of the ~3.5 acceleration of the game, it has no HP, no magic consumables. Though "very basics" are actually the controls imo. Knowledge about ships and tactics are more like advanced basics, if not "experts" basics. TBH, the old CV was also quite simple. Simple but weird to control. I mean it's technically a RTS light version with 4-6 units. For RTS that is not very complex, unless those 4-6 units are very deep "characters" with many skills. Homing torpedos or not, I also don't think, that the game becomes more arcadey than before. It's still the same level. At least for me. I mean, you can see that different, that's fine, it's just my view. It really depends on the view, I see that game as very arcadey, because of all these simplified mechanics. To get rid of that genre description they would have to: Slow down the games to realistic speeds Remove all consumables and make them realistc tools Limited Ammo Remove HP and implement a realistic damage model All guns manual controllable (also AA) CV Rework Armament rework (Gun aiming, sub torpedos) Actually it would become very similar to War Thunder

This:

Eh, context? I'm not complaining. I always want more complexity and less arcadeness Has nothing to do with implementation of submarines. This game is arcadey, so submarines will be arcadey So to answer you question: No. Just to make it sure. If I explain something and say my preferences, doesn't mean, I complain.

You are wrong.

And why would you want to DCP every ping? Do you DCP every module dmg, every single fire? No, you use it in emergency cases, when torpedos are reaching you. And guess what, Torpedos have a reload time, so the pings on you after that doesn't matter, as long you clear the pings, that cause the torpedo hits When they are invisible, then they have 0 vision, they could only try to hydro-ping, but they are already at a bad spot there. Hydro has limited range They don't, only when you got with a very specific setup like german T10 with 25% -> 15% speed skill. That is not the general case of submarines. And that is so specific, I wouldn't think you will ever face it, or at least super rarely. Especially not with your bismarck in ranked. Tell me, how fast are submarines underwater in T8 ranked? The numbers please For ships without ASW it kinda counts the same like against DDs. You can surprise them, but mostly you will have to avoide them. Running into them is always a high risk, and rarely a reward. I mostly like CVs, but actually for a submarine, CVs are an annoyance, because they force the submarine to dive. They spot them also on operating depth 1) Impossible if they are as fast as they appear they will be. With a destroyer, you can counterfire and force him to evade, thus slowing him down. Submarine? Not so much.  2) Except torpedoes are guided. They will be far more difficult to evade than destroyer torpedoes. 3) Yeah, and how many ships will have ASW? At least, if enemy has destroyers, your own team is also guaranteed to have destroyers due to the way game is balanced. Are you saying that game will automatically drop two or more ASW ships in the game every time there are submarines included in the match? I doubt it. And ASW ships will be relying on consumables. 1) Depends on what scenario you are thining of, but submarines are on the slower side, while DDs are the fastest class in game (hull). If a DD moves with 40 knots and chases a BB, it will stay on constant safe distance and torp the BB. There is no chance to fire at the DD 2) You can still dodge them. And duo the ping alert and the behavior of homing you can actively influence the torpedos. I showed already many screenshots where those torpedos miss. If they are more difficult depends on the ship and situation. Also we have to keep in mind, that a single DD torpedos mostly do more damage than a Sub torpedo, so it's obvious, that they have to hit better, not mentioning the lack of main guns 3) If enemy has a SS in team, than the own team has SS as well. As I mentioned early, the "issues" with SS are quite similar with DDs. I'm not saying, that MM drops ASW ships into the game. Same like we won't get always Radar ships or Torpedo ships. ASW does not rely on consumables. Submarines can be spotted like every other ship as well. (not talking about maxium depth ,that comes also with disadvantages of submarines and its way more complex to talk about) Try that with Submarine, that will work. Load HE and surprise him, especially against a german Submarine German submarines have only around 10km range, if a submarine pings you, it must be very close. Move around ~4km towards the direction, hydro, shoot. I'm sure, you can suprise some submarines with that. Just like some DDs can be surprised for misplaying distances. It's only easier, depending on how you implement it. What if they would implement the different depths just like it would be only a "smoke", Not talking about realism, but it's totally up to the devs, how different they implement something. I'm not talking about physically correctness, but how you can programm a game. You could even design the depth just as a visual effect and nothing else. The different medium itself is not an issue, it depends on how you implement the different medium. And you can make it even harder on same mediums, depending on how you design it. What if we now implement laser roboter for surface only. You can have more difficult balancing on same medium You can have easier balancing on different mediums That's all possible, and in my opinion it makes no sense to complain about "different" mediums. Because we always have differences and those cause "issues" 1) Counts for submarines as well. And that's why the different medium is not an issue, the mechanic is, at maximum depth the detection range goes. It's bound on the normal mechanics 2) Counts for submarines as well, even more 3) Same for submarines, islands are blocking pinging 4) No difference with submarines 5) same for Submarines on surfacen and periscope depth The thing is, they lack in speed and flexibility, to compensate that, they have the diving. Makes to me totally sense. 1) They can be underwater, but they are not always underwater. The most important thing is, to consider the disadvantages. When a submarine submerges, the concealment of other ships go also down in the same scale. Not the submarine gets invisible, all get "invisible". Destroyers with ~6km detection will get around ~2.5km detection against submarines ( just like a submarine) 2) Ability to detect is also handicaped by periscope level and below. 3) Angling actually can help. Subs do increased damage against citadels, when double pinged. Thus bowing in can lead to no citadel cits (still can happen but less likely) 4) The pings will be detected, which warns possibly way earlier than any other torpedo attack and also the torpedos have very bad concealment 5) Depends. But of course they need some way to survive. If you give every ship ability to attack then there are to opitions A) Submarines will be unplayable because of permanent ASW plane spam B) ASW gets nerfed. While teams can know spam their ASW and sink a SS, single ships with ASW will struggle to sink a SS, because of the nerf. Depends on your definition of balanced. If you remove SS and CV I would claim the same statement, that BB, Cruiser and DD can't be balanced. But going with somewhat balanced game, both is possible, the game with BB, cruiser and DD, but also SS and CV. I just don't see an issue there. How does it matter, if a ship can't be killed, because it's too fast and concealed. Or it's not fast enough, but has as "defence" a diving option. In both cases you won't be able to sink. What if a Smoke would give you immunity Shells and Torpedos, and immunity against radar and hydro? Then it would be almost the exact same like a submarines maxium depth (without the disadvantages of the maximum depth) This would have 0 to do with the medium, but the same issue. That should make it clear, that different mediums are not "fundamentally different" and can't be balanced. I see the issue of the stiff thinking of the WoWs community, that only surface ships can work for the game. No new content, no new mechanics. It would be better, if people look at other games like Battlefield, or League of legends, where are all the time completly new mechanics and differend mediums Eh that forces nothing. the DD might miss torpedos, but the DD has the full control. The zig-zag causes speed lost, while the DD moves with full speed and higher maxium speed away. That might work against very inexperienced or sleeping players, yes. But this will work against submarines as well, with these players controlling it. no difference You can't go with examples, where destroyers do mistakes and bad plays, but submarines never do mistakes, that makes no sense. I see no difference to submarines. Please break down, how they are invisible, but DDs not? You mentioned Bismarck,that ship has 6km Hydro anyways? And you haven o warning against DDs, but ping warning against submarines. It's even easier, full dodges are possible. In case of failing -> DCP Like a slow Destroyer with with no "turret" armament. Torps go only forward or backward, which makes them not only slow, but also inflexible. If they point towards the BB, they struggle to attack and avoid the BB. Have you actually played a submarine? As soon I get spotted, I get also hit by secondaries. Secondaries cause splash damage against submarines, they don't need direct hits. Yesterday I was spotted and the very first secondary salvo took me 1k hp on a medium long distance.

The issue is, that testing those torpedos is quite difficult, but it might be very different depending on the ship type DD, cruiser or BB. I haven't played cruiser, but it seems, those have trouble against these torpedos, while BBs have not that issue I will watch it, but I have a feeling... xD This game is too arcadey for realistic mechanics ^^' I personally would love a very complex and realistic gameplay, but we won't get that

1. Basic controls and testing 2. Distribution. *1 3. What has that to do with the limited access? Up to you, if you want learn/play them or not. If you are interested, you will, otherwise not 4. If you want maximize the outcome, you will go with the strongest, that excludes many ships. But what has that to do with the limited access?^^ *1 If you give all at once the access, you will have many players playing them the first days, first week, and then a huge drop for all those, who are not interested in playing them. The huge peak is an issue and also the lower numbers later can be unwished Example 1: Everyone with Sub access want play them. Lets say 100 people. 100 people in queue the first days After a week or more, only the very interested stay, lets say 10% - 10 people Example 2: Limited access, only 25% get access. First days 25 people are playing submarine, Then later only 2 people stay, but also 25 new people get acces - 27 Later 4 people stay on submarine and 25 new people -> 29 Then 6 people stay on submarine and 25 new people join -> 35 You will have for weeks around 25-30 people, vs 100 people for days and then only 10 for the rest time.

Because it was about submerging

But that's what I said, it was always an arcadey game. They add just new arcadey stuff, but that doesn't change the fact, that this is arcadey already^^ How does it matter, if you run away from a DD or a SS? Just having a SS doesn't mean, that we will have now 8 SS and 8 DDs in a match. Even in ranked you get 2 or 3 DDs on each side constantly. And as far I know, SS share slots with DDs Moving away also doesn't mean camping or max-ranging. Moving away is the default tactic to avoide damage for many scenarios. It changes absolutly nothing ^^ In my ranked matches, I didn't notice any bigger meta change No, I don't get it :P

I think, they will solve that in future? As far as I know, that are often invisible walls, that caused that Someone suggested to add the same colloision warning for ground. I was just showing the issue

Please quote me, where I said that.

I don't go for a serious answer to that, when this spamming, trolling(?) and misunderstanding/misreading is involved and also ignoring the central statements. I mean, you complain about getting outspotted in a submarine, but also assuming, that players go with stock and unskilled captains? You assume, that it is my "opinion", that DDs go with concealment skills? You mentioned a cruiser, but why is that an issue? They get outspotted by smaller vessels, that is a normal mechanic in the game and nothing new?

You probably don't know, how the guided torpedos work in this game. They are predictable: They always will hope at the pinged spot. They won't do something different. I could go into even more details, but I doubt that will be understand. My earlier post is about avoiding these evil guided torpedos. Where is the issue?

Though the game always was very arcadish. I would prefer a more realistic approach, but this game is more a pvp-shooter, than a simulation. It's like the Battlefield series. It looks quite realistic, but it's pretty arcadey and unrealistic.

That makes no sense. You have to understand, that there is one less ship, that causes fires/floods, when there is a submarine. So there changes nothing, so there are less fires. It is even stronger, if you combine it with fires etc. Example: You are fighting a 1vs2. First you fight against a DD and a Cruiser. The DD can cause floods and fires The cruiser can cause floods and fires now you fight 1vs2 against SS and Cruiser SS can cause floods/ping mechanic The cruiser can cause floods and fires So, where is it overused? There are still 2 ships, that can cause effects, which you can be countered by DCP? If you don't use DCP, it's up to you. But I would use it to 100%, if I can remove 20k dmg with that. You also don't use DCP for every single fire. So I wouldn't use DCP for every ping, only if it's worth it. That's because of bad players. You will do the same against submarine, when submarine players play bad. Especially in a Bismarck, you will be able to surprise them at Pericsop depth and you can one shot them. If a DD fails against a BB, then it has nothing to do with the basic concept. And if you ever played DD, you should agree with that. Or do you get constantly hunted down by single BBs? Would like to hear from a DD main, that BBs constantly surprise attack them and counter them^^ Do the same with submarines? 1) Run away against SS 2) Avoid torpedos and wait for a mistake. (though how can you wait for a mistake? Ot can happen, but how is that a consistent strategy?) 3) Find a friendly ASW mate. Those can even use your spotting on the submarine. It's almost the same like against DDs. As I said earlier. The default tactic is still to run away. That is not a reason. You can even program units, that shoot from the Mars, if you want. A different medium is not a reason, because a game can programmed in way, that any medium works. There exists also other pvp-games, that do that. That this is harder to balance has nothing to do with the medium, that has something to do with, that any difference makes balancing harder. As I said earlier, you use the same tactic. I don't know if you actually read my post earlier. I tryed to explain it a few times here. The encounter vs DD and Submarines is in the "result" almost the same, only some mechanics are different, but a BB is helpless against a DD in a same way it is helpless against a SS (if no ASW) If you manage to kill a DD alone, because he does a mistake, why do you expect, that submarines never do mistakes? That's a quite unrealistic point of view. With such an argument, I can turn everything to my favor. If you assume, that a DD makes a mistake and moves into your Bismarck Hydro Then you should also assume, that a Submarine stays surfaced/pericsope depth inside your Bismark Hydro In both cases, you are able to shoot at him, but the funny thing is, a submarine dies pretty fast, even secondaries can kill them, because submarines take hull damage from Splashes.

That's how I feel, when I play a BB and there is a DD. The only difference is, that the Sub gets spotted, but not reachable, while the DD is fast and avoids being spotted. The result is the same. I actually like the complextity. But in case you don't know, when the Submarines is not on surface, all ships get better concealment against submarines (Air concealment) Though it's pretty useful to reduce dmg. And you also have to keep in mind, for every Submarine in battle, you have one less ship in battle, that could cause a fire or flood.

You will know the direction and "guided" also means "predictable". I can only speak for BBs (IJN cruisers have so little to offer, no ASW, no AA, no DPM, no Radar etc), but there are ways to avoide them, and with the pinging info, the player gets an early alert from the direction and also, that he will get torped.

Don't make me laugh. That isn't the best case scenario, that is the common case. If someone is not going with basic skills and modules, then he has no right to complain about outspotting, because that person will get also outspotted by all the DDs, who go with default-outfitting. For real, why would I complain about getting outspotted by submarines, when I don't take concealment module and skill and get also outspotted by the same DDs? xD Using default outfitting is the common scenario (for Torpedo/Hybrid DDs). Why would I talk about something ,that don't go with the basics? Otherwise we can't talk about anything ,because we would have to remove all the modules and all skills always. That makes 0 sense xD A discussion of that topic, that is based on gameplay, makes only sense, if you assume the default/base outfitting. Otherwise we talk about a player, who already goes with a disadvantage into the battle not only agaisnt subs but against every ship Sorry, no, that what you are mentioning is nonsense. Expecting that any serious player plays without the basic stuff ^^ 1. I said, that this word quibbling won't win any argumentation, it rathers distracts from actual statements 2. If something is very weak, then this is a downside, it's a disadvantage. It's not an advantage, to have a weakness. What do you mean "and no"? I never said, that facts are not objective or opionions are not subjective? o_O No, you are wrong. We can also just remove that effect form DCP. let's see, how that is not an advantage. I already explained, normal torpedos can't be dcp'ed with a 50% damage reduction effect. It's not a temporary relief when you are able to reduce damage activly. It's a damage reduction effect. Removing the double ping, removes the damage boost from the torpedos. Oh my....you are talking nonsense again. ASW is an attack mechanic, radar is a spotting mechanic .A is A not a B. It's not nonsense, if you don't understand it. I can see that, in what you are answering. It's totally unrelated to what I was writing. There is no context. I never wrote anything, that is in conflict, with "ASW is an attack mechanic, radar is a spotting mechanic" No, we speak of ASW should be available for every ship, and that makes no sense, because all other stuff, that is somewaht similar to ASW is also limited to specific ships, like Radar and Torpedos. ASW is not a Main gun. ASW is not AA. You can't compare it with AA, because the mechanics are so extremly different. AA is not a main armament. it's not a secondary armament. It's not a consumable. AA is a own mechanic. ASW is something between secondary armament (not secondary guns), and consumable. But that is a counter...... it counters the stealth of a stealth ship.... That takes ther advantage of surprise attack, that makes them to vulnerable targets. And it doesn't something own it's own: It spots stealth targets. You have a very weird definition for counter. I'm wondering, what actually is a counter for you When RPF and Hydro doesn't work, then the submarine is blind, too. That's a very specific definiton of your own, isn't it? How is vision than not comparative and gradual? Isn't all gradual and comparative? xD I mean everything has values in this games, you can compare them all. If a ship has weak firepower (weakness), then this is a disadvantage of that ship. As I said, this word quibbling won't win any prices. What I mentioned, and which is very hard to explain, was why you need this kind of design. The reason why you can't just make Radar and guns work down to the maxium depth. It would be broken. There is a reason, why submarines need these stages. I wasn't talking about the interaction, rather about the wrong statements. But in case of interactions, in the end they are kinda similiar to the interaction with DDs. In some cases there is no difference in the result. If a BB runs away from a DD or a SS makes no difference, it has to run away. Just as example. The Interaction are almost the same, even with different mechanics. You asked for rewards and you were not very specific. Especially it was about the question "why in ranked". I said, they test it in ranked and we get coal rewards. That are reward, that you only get, because of the testing, no matter if playing them or not. But they are bound to the testing.

If it's shorter than 10s, then there is probably no double ping (ping cooldown). In case of DDs, it might not matter, but for crusiers and bbs, you really want a double ping for the huge damage boost. I mean, it still depends. If the cruiser has 5k hp, it might be smarter to go for a late ping and stuff like that

You still can't ping 5s before impact, if you want get a double ping because of the cooldown. Also there is always the possbility of missing the ping. Depending on distance, I often ping at the half way But also it really depends on the target. BB are very are to hit with torpedos. While Cruiser seem to struggle, even if they are aware of the ping.

very true. I mean on open ocean, ships still can run away, but it's better than having islands around

What do you mean? Mostly the torps will impact after ~10-20 s after the first ping, if not longer I mean not always, and it really depends. But if a submarine will go for a super close ping, then it risks to miss the ping and the torps.

This is just the best case, how to dodge. If you want to explain, how to survive a DD, what would you recommend? Show full broadside? No you show, how to avoide them. Common sense You can even dodge the torpedos with Full broadside You can dodge them with heading towards them I don't think moving towards is the better way, because they seem to not home very well at some distance. Thus if you move away, you extend the distance, where they home weak/or don't even home. Not sure here BB turned away BB moves towards SS BB shows broadside and turns in All scenarios, not garbage.