Pikkozoikum

I think all CVs are more or less on a same level, there is not too much of a difference and I would more go for the personal taste and which nation flavors you prefer. Especially you don't know the future changes, maybe it will be completly different in two or 3 patches. But I also guess, that USN Ships are always a safe pick, though I prefer IJN but just because it's a personal taste. To the armament, yes the rockcets of the IJN are weak, but you still can use them against DDs. The Torpedos hit pretty hard and the AP bombs as well. Haku does with 3 citadell hits 25,5k damage. That are around 50% of a cruisers HP

I had early in the morning a 3 CV, 1 BB and 1 DD match. That was actually funny xD

Balancing ist eben ein immerwährender Prozess. Das Problem was ich habe: Mir verdirbt ein CV nicht den Spaß. Ich weiß, wie ich mich zu verhalten habe. 25k, AP bomben sind OP? Ich drehe seitlich weg und keine trifft. Oder es trifft mal eine Zitadelle. Ganz selten mehrere, aber dann - es treffen nun mal manchmal schwere Treffer, das ist normal. Hab auch schon einen 66,6k Damage Salvo von nem T10 BB erhalten... ist es deswegen OP? xD

Was bedeutet OP? Meiner Meinung nach wird häufig diese Frage aus einem falschen Standpunkt gestellt. Die meisten urteilen nach der 1vs1-Fähigkeit eines Schiffs - Kann ich das Schiff alleine besiegen? Das ist - meiner Meinung nach- ein komplett falscher Ansatz. Dies ist ein Teamspiel, beide Teams haben einen oder zwei CV, egal ob ein CV "op" gegen einzelne Schiffe ist, die Teams sind ausgeglichen, denn beide Teams haben die selbe Anzahl an "op" CVs. Es ist viel wichtiger sich die Frage zu stellen: "Macht es Spaß gegen CVs zu spielen?" Es ist ganz egal, ob ein CV op gegen ein Einzelschiff ist oder nicht. Ich mache mal eine League of Legends Analogie. Ein Teamspiel 5vs5. Es gibt Supporter, nehmen wir mal Yuumi, die kleine Katze. Es gibt Mid-Lane Assassinen wie Zed. Spiel Zed gegen Yuumi einen 1vs1, dann wird mit sehr hoher Wahrscheinlichkeit Zed gewinnen. Warum? Weil Zed ein Duell-charakter ist, der Einzelziele auschaltet, und Yuumi ein Teamcharakter ist, der andere supported. Trotzem schreit niemand "Supporter sind zu schwach, sie können gar keinen 1vs1 gegen Assassins gewinnen". Weil es nun mal das Spieldesign ist, dass es Duell-Charaktere gibt und Teamcharaktere. Ich sehe in CV eine Art Assassin, ein Schiff, dessen Stärke es ist, einzelne Ziele auszuschalten. Also sollte es doch klar sein, dass man gegen solch einen Typ in einem 1vs verlieren sollte? Daher ist der stärkste Counter gegen CV ein größeren Gruppen zu fahren, was den Schaden minimiert und seine Staffeln schwächt. Deswegen ist es wirklich mehr die Frage: Ist es Spaß gegen einen CV zu spielen, was kann ich erwarten, wenn ich alleine spiele gegen einen CV - sollte ich als Einzelschiff in der Lage sein, einen "Duellcharakter" zu besiegen? Ich bin der Meinung, man sollte nicht in der Lage sein alleine einen CV komplett zu "besiegen". Man sollte in der Lage sein ihm Schadenzuzufügen, in dem man eine Flugzeugreserven reduziert und in der Lage sein durch gute Manövier den eigenen Schaden zu reduzieren. Mir kommt es so vor, dass viele eine Longrange-AA wollen, die pro Sekunde 5 Flugzeuge schießt, dass die Flak-Explosion immer treffen. Den Eindruck habe ich von manchen Ich habe Spaß gegen CV und ich kann mich an kein Spiel erinnern, wo der CV mir das Spiel einfach nur vermiest hat. In total vielen Spielen existiert kein "Perma spotting", Nur eine Staffel, die nie in meinem Bereich war. Und wenn ein CV auf mich ging, habe ich mich entsprechend verhalten, um den Schaden zu minimieren. In vielen solchen Fällen hätte mich ein RTS-CV direkt mit 12 Torpedos Kreuzabwurf direkt versenkt und einer Perma flood, die doppelt so viel abzieht, während er weiterhin mit einer einzelnen Bomberstaffel perma-spottet. Aus diesem Grund habe ich viel mehr Spaß und sehe es nicht als OP Was finde ich also OP? Ich finde es OP, wenn ich ein Schlachtschiff spiele, sagen wir die Kii, und dann ein Schlachtschiff mir gegenübersteht mit besseren Kanonen, die präziser sind und dieses Schiff auch noch tausendmal besser gepanzert ist, so dass man nur shatters, bounces usw erhält (ru bb) Der gleiche Schiffstyp, der die gleichen Aufgaben erfüllt, aber viel stärker. Das nenne ich OP. Wenn ich BB spiele, und ein DD ist unsichtbar und torpediert mich, dann ist das sogesehen auch op, und ich kann absolut nichts dagegen machen, außer den Schaden versuchen zu minimieren. Wie beim CV kann ich nicht zurück feuern, und das ist der Punkt, es sind unterschiedliche Klassen und es wird nicht auf Grund der 1vs1 Fähigkeit gegen andere Schiffstypen gebalanced. Es muss nur ein Niveau gefunden werden, bei dem es Spaß ist gegen einen CV zuspielen. ps.: Ich will damit nicht sagen, dass der CV zur Zeit oder in der Vergangenheit gut gebalanced ist.

When people are here to play, then they shouldn't complain about future mechanics without correct information? I can't test ships like DM; I play mostly only IJN ships, and I didn't had a bad experience so far. But I didn't tested it to much, because it's boring without a CV, and if there is a CV, he often ignores me, so it'S too often boring for me to play surface ship :-/

They thought that, because they only thought they would overlap sectors and add burst damage. Many people didn't watched stream, where they said, they buff CVs and tweak aa numbers. If people would listen and know about all changes, theny they wouldn't call it op aa.

Keeping saying that, doesn't make it true, neither does it make you more authenic. Try some facts. Can you give me AA numbers of Zao, or if you prefer the HIpper. I mean all numbers, short long and mid I don't have other values. Also 0.8.0 didn't had weak AA only as a problem, but also the overbuffed squads. Torpedochances higher, one heavy damage flood instead of two flood spots. Some damagenumbers were higher. After that, they buffed AA and nerfed planes over patches, which made CVs way weaker and unpopluar, now they nerfed AA and buffed planes again. That's the process of balancing. So as general assumption: 0.8.0 has weakest AA, 0.8.6. has too strong aa. Now it's higher than 0.8.0 but lower than 0.8.6. then this is a good attempt for balancing. Or should it be higher than 0.8.6 or should it be lower than 0.8.0. I guess not. That's what I tryed to tell you in the other thread, that a nerf have to be done with the change of the overlapping and burst. You can't stay with overbuffed AA and then buff is with overlapping and burst on the top. If the AA is too weak, they can still buff them, but I don't saw any statisics so far, so I can't give a verdict, like almost can with their "feeling"

At the stream for 8.7 pts, the developer wanted to get rid of the extrem AA monsters. And now the AA monsters get nerfed. Oh wow, what a surprise! They telling us, that they nerf those ship, and then they nerf those ships, nobody could expect that! I looked for Hindenburg 0.8.0 S 272+M 375+L 104=751 (this number is actually pointless, since the dps can't cumulate) 0.8.7 S 122+M 308+L 138=568 But actually it's more meanigful to not add the total number, but look at the single zones 0.8.0 S 272 // M 375 // L 104 0.8.7 S 568 // M 446 // L 138 I testest in a direct, boosted attack -> Long-mid-short and above the target in seconds: 12-7-3-0 5s in long, 4s in mid, 3s in short. 0.8.0 104*5 + 375*4 + 272*3 = 2836 0.8.7 5 seconds 138 = 690 4 seconds 138+308 = 1784 3 seconds 138+308+122 = 812 total = 3286 this is without sector switching and burst, but the burst alone would do around 700 dmg against a 20k squad. So I wouldn't assume ,that the aa is weaker, than 0.8.0 Bonus: There is also a small difference in gameplay, before 0.8.7. it was often saver to F in the shortrange, than trying to move out, now pressing F would lead to remain in the strongest AA zone, thus the cv player has to move out of this zone, which lalso leads to a longer remaining time, where the squad is being shot. Though I'm not sure what is saver recalling in the short range or flying out, because both takes it time. ps.: would be also nice, if someone else would do that test too. Especially with measuring flight times, how long it takes for which zones, just to have more data. I used Kaga TBs. Kaga is my best CV at the moment because of regrind pps: Does anybody has the dps numbers from 0.8.6.? Would be itneresting to see them as well in comparison

You seem to be just searching for confrontations and fights. I have no other explanation for your kind of "argumentation". I rephrase, what you write, how I would write it without being a smartass or [edited]. It's not a comparison, it's an analogy. How unexpected of you to worthlessly harp on that. /s -> "Comparison" is the wrong word in this context, it should be analogy. But if taking it too literally is your only defense then I suppose nothing else needs to be said about how absurd your point is. -> You missed some points about what I talked, you should reply to the more imporant part of my post. This would be neutral and actual make it less pain to reply to you. BTW, generally I always reply to the whole post or at least to the important parts. But I remember, that you mostly don't do that either, you pick only single phrases, where you can be the smartass. I just did this time the same ;)

Your comparison is absurd. Getting shot and having one time a bad game are compeltly different things. The consequences are totally different, killing/dying and having a bad game?! This is about risk and consequences. Your comparions has a high risk and a really, really bad consquence. My statement has a lower risk and an almost non-existing consquence. I mean, wow 10 minutes a bad game! Is almost like dying by a bullet, right? xD

No idea, what you mean, if I get once a day in the far future a unicum CV, who really crushes me, than, well, one game, were I get crushed, ship happens. Next 1000 games will be more fun ;D

Yes! I always saying that, that's why I don't have bad experience with the rework over 100s of games .D

but the memes :-|

Kann man platt so sagen. Oder die einen spielen gut, und die anderen nicht... Ich benutzte nicht O, hab es auf MB5

It costs 25 to keep the module in your inventory, but instead of that you can sell it for credits. I don't know the english terms there should be something like "Dismount" which you can change to "sell" It's german, but it should be still clear:

I really want see that

well, what definetly change, and I like that, The F button directly after a strike above the target is actually the worst spot. Before the patch it was often the best spot. But also think the same, that many peoples are not used to the new system or even don't know that it exists. It depends, what you mean with "skill based". It kinda needs skills in case of knowledge and awareness. If a player give a [edited]about it, he will do less aa damage and those are pretty easy to destroy.

Nope, no idea what you have with your strawman. I just told you, what wargaming did. You can like it or hate it, really don't care. Never said, that we got an quivalent buff. Just said, what wargaming was focusing: Remove extremes. No AA super ships, No AA useless ships. That was the goal. I have no statistic, if the AA got overall to much nerfed. I can only repeat: I don't have any issues with AA weak ships now. But in case of the Hipper, I don't know the old values, but you keep foregetting to add the shortrange? The 560 doesn't work in short range, but the new midrange works in the short range Oof, you talk about being invincble, when you bow on... Mostly I said that, what Wargaming said, so it's not about any kind of argumentation, it's just repeating what happend. And what happend? They changed the extremes, they changed the AA system. You come all the time up with topics, that I don't even talk about, but claming of "strawman agrugments" "You keep Talking about the Overlapping AA Zones which are New. But they are Irrelevant. Because it does not Change the Fact that the Resulting AA Power is 30-50% weaker than before." - never said that the AA is stronger now, I just told, why they changed the numbers. "You dont Directly Demand that CVs are Always Guaranteed to get a Strike Through. But your Demanding that AA Cannot Prevent a CV from Striking You. The Result however is the Same." - I never talked about that. Even in FPs you have Bad Aiming and RNG. If there would be a perfect world with perfect aiming, then there would no dodging exist. Even a Fly can't dodge, because my aiming would be perfect. It's pointless "why" dodging happens. But if I see two planes moving towards me, then I can quickly turn my rudder with maxium steering towards those, then I can look, how they drop and move through the gap. That is active dodging. you can'T drop the torps on the ship, they have an arming distance, this arming distance can be used to move through a gap. Seriously... if we talk about dodging, then the term dodging is adjusted to the capabiltity of ships in WOWS and not of Sci-Fi maneuvers with anchors. But if it makes you happy, then call if [edited]evasive Maneuver, reall don't care. I call it dodging. Come on, this is nitpicking, you know what I mean.... Sudden and quick for what? A lighting strike? The movement of mountains? When we talk about ships, then these terms are adapted to SHIPS, not to anything else. If a ship moves 50 knots, then it is a quick ship. For planes, it is maybe slow, but we are talking about ships, not about horses, the light, the Millennium Falcon or what ever. Actually that's what you are doing, you write large posts about stuf, that was never objective of my inital post. I'm just reply to your posts, which are actually totaly far away from the points I talked about.. I didn't demand that Can't remember that I demand that. You missunderstood me a second time, thought quoting would help, but maybe I have to repeat. You can't keep the AA values of 8.6. with changing to overlapping zones and buff the values of weak AA ships. This would lead to an overbuffing and no fly zone all the time. If you buff the AA super weak ships and keep the normal and strong ships with high values, then there are no ships to attack So you compare only the values, but not considering the mechanic? If you only compare the single zones, yes, they are "nerfed" which is completly irrelevant, when the mechanic changed.... I make you an example for mechanic change. All ships get now a AA DPS of 1. Thats a nerf right? But they also get a mechanic change, that they can press a button every 10 s in a range of 20km to drop the load of the enemy squadron to disarm them. The mechanic and the pure value is something differnt. The single nerf can't be seen as single part, you have to look over all changes. Exact that is the reason, why most people thought, that the AA will be overpowered with 8.7 when it was on PTS; They didn't saw all the changes only the single change. Doing that is the mistake. Well, I assume the AA in general is slightly weaker, but that was intented. The question is, if the AA is too weak... or maybe just all people don't know how to use the sector system? When I play CV I notice a lot players not using it. I rarely have issues with CVs and never thought, they're too powerful at least against good players. But that is a skill thing. If the AA is really to weak, then they will buff it, I assume. I can just tell my experience, and if I don'T have issues against CV, then I can't like about it. So watch my replay, I didn't even played well and had no issues. https://replayswows.com/replay/61682#stats

No, never said that. No, the AA had to "be nerfed". You can't change from single zones to overlapping zone and keep the dps. You forgot the mid range dps of the Cls? Really no idea what you are talking about. But I did? Me against two CVs. They fought me, I killed planes, they didn't killed, we won. You can turn into a gap, then you dodge, better with faster ships, than with BBs obviously. Cambridge Dictionary That's what you do, You press a (A or D) button and avoide a torpedo. Sudden and quick are relative terms. When you dodge an attack as human, for a fly is that not sudden or quick. If a destroye or CLs moves left oder right, that is sudden or quick in the view of a BB. So this terms do nothing. Call it what every ou like, call it avoide, call it dodge, call it evasive maneur, I really don't care, but this is all the same. A movement to not get hit. Evading or dodging? Or is it an evasive maneuver? I'm not sure Shouldn't, like you could see in the replay, I dodge/avoide/maneuver evasivly torpedos It's a game design, that CVs are better against fewer enemies, than more enemies. Depending on skill and ship you can defeat. I don't know. Why should it? Grouping is good against CVs. Guess you really missunderstood, what I was refering to. They had to "nerf" ships like Minotaur, when they buff the rest of the ship. They wanted to nerf the strong aa ships, and buff the weaker aa ships to get a balance. Here my quote: This refers to the change from 8.6 to 8.7. They wanted to nerf AA monsters and buff AA-weak ships. And as I said, you can't buff the AA-monsters and the weak ships. That would end to invincble groups. Well, why should it? Do you have an answer, me not Did you watched the replay? I have no issues against CVs.

No, that's not the same. It's a difference, if AA dps becomes so heavy, that the CV can't drop anything, or if a Ship angles and reduces damage. A Bow on ship can always receivce damage, it could get also deleted. They are not invincble. But if the DPS is overbuffed, then planes can't reach the target. The questions are unnesscary. It is about, that the AA god nerfed, because the mechanic and other values got changed. You can't keep the high dps monsters, while buffing all other ships as wel. That would lead to 10k dps groups, who shred everything. Never said, that there should be no counter against CV, but neither should be everything a counter against CV ;) Or do you want aa-weak ships, that can one-shot squads, while we have minotaurs with over 1k midrange dps, and maybe 2k at shortrange or even higher? It's about the extremes. Thats a strategy, that doesn't has anything to do with the CV rework. Distracting enemies with your life is a strategy to win. Example. 5 Ships hunting you to the border for 20 minutes. Don't you think, that is worth your life for being a bait? I won that alot with that strategy, better than giving up and showing broadside to get sink as fast as possible ;) Eh, of course oyu can dodge? Use WASD. Torps can miss. Bombs are sluggish and even Rocket planes are sluggish in case of hard turns. When I play CV I really notice, how people dodge and people who give a [edited]. https://replayswows.com/replay/61682#stats Watch. I dodged a lot torps. Many attempts that 2 CVs try to kill me. We win a 3vs6, because the 2 Cvs go for me without success That describes dodging, doesnt it? Moving a ship into another position to get less hit? Same way you dodge shells or torpedos... xD with a surface ship, moving to a side (using A and D) and try to avoide to get hits (bombs, torpedos, rockets)

1 - Sieht nicht nach burst aus. Hab es verlangsamt und es sah danach aus, als wäre das rote Flugzeug schon tot als es rot angezeigt wird, und danach nimmt das zweite Flugzeug Schaden, geht auf gelb runter , dabei ist das rote noch in der Anzeige "da". Muss aber nochmal checken (Edit: Das Flugzeug stürzt ab, als es noch rot in der Anzeige ist, sprich es exisitert als roter HP Balken, aber nicht mehr als kampfähiges Flugzeug, daher nimmt das 2. Flugzeug nun Schaden und wird bei der hohen DPS schnell gelb) 2 - Schätze die Wolke hast du gerade so am Rand mitgenommen, könnte aber auch einfach ien bug sein bei der Projizierung, es war auch schon die Rede von unsichtbaren Wolken 3 4 - Jäger treffen immer mehrere Ziele, ich glaube jeder Jäger trifft ein Flugzeug. 5 - Ja, da habe ich nur die Information des Replays, die ist offensichtlich :D Wenn der Burst benutzt wird, müsstest du mit einem Schlag bei ner vollen Staffel über 7000 Hp verlieren (natürlich abhängig von der Staffel) und dann siehst du, dass viel mehr MG feuer in der Luft ist. Daher denke ich ,dass die Bots kein Burst damage verwenden Schau mal hier (musst reinzoomen) und achte auf Tracer in der Luft . Siehst du den Unterschied?

It's always important to consider, that multiple ships still can group. If every ship get a overbuffed AA, groups would become invincible. Moving around alone against a CV is most likely then showing broadside to a BB. But even if someone moves around alone, its still possible do shoot down planes and dodge attacks

The old lines where pointless, they just showed the connection between points. The points you can still set, but the lines show you no information, because it was not the real path only a path between points. Now it shows the real path, and it gives you the information, that the CV wants to move back to have enought space for a turn.

I know, it's a joke, but to get that you need a good product ;D

For some nation the armor is not imporant for the definition of CL/CA. Best example Mogami CL and Mogami CA. Only the Main guns changed, because those make the defintion, the armor is the same.