Pikkozoikum

Easy SS farming :D

Um, then good luck not stepping into the next trap? ;D

How is that possible? I jsut got once a friendly warning, because I posted a "In before lock" meme, which was actually appropiated the meme...

I was questioning the number, and 3k is mostly a low tier torpedo. Yubari, that's figuratively a DD without smoke, speedboost but citadell What do you mean?

That is actually one point of the change. There should be no black and white. Not No-fly-zones and No-AA-zones. The concept changed from having Full loses before strike and having no loses to: having huge loses or having small loses. A CV will mostly always lose a plane or more or will lose many planes. (I don't let 1vs1 no-aa ships count, I'm more talking about mid and high tier) It's the same when you play against surface ships, you will be never able to avoide to 100% every damage. Even angled and dodged a ships can damage you. It's the same logic A CV can do a good drop and do a lot or max dmg A CV can have a bad drop (Bad skills or surface ship is avoiding/killing planes) and do less or no dmg. Destroying planes after the first strike has also an effect. You will maybe take the first strike, but you won't take a second or a third strike. Just like this thread showed "how fast" a Rework can kill. Well, without having the 2nd and 3rd wing, It will be way, way slower

Mhh, punish means, they do a total damage of 3k in the whole battle? Wouldn't call that punish. I played once in a T4 against 2xT4 CVs and they lost, because they were not able to kill me the whole time. Bad CV player are doing not much, when you know how to minimze the dmg against them

Funny thing is, arguments are only valid, if there is a unicum CV and an average surfaceship-player. If someone is arguing for the CV rework, then it's not allowed to assume, that there are average CV players, only the maximum potential of a Superunicum-CV counts :D

It's the same like radar cruiser vs DD. A radar cruiser expects somewhere a sub, maybe in a cap, he radards, and gives a salvo. That can be enough for heavy dmg. I'm pretty sure, you will see that on the live server. A Sub has to be at surface as much as possbile, thus it will appear, that a CV goes into radar range + BBs have huge He shells, thus their splash damage also a huge volume - you can blind fire Subs, when they ping

It'S crucial for SS to manage their oxygene. Thus they will stay surface as long as possible. That could mean, that a radar cruiser could surprise a Sub and almost one shot them. I think Radar cruisers will quiel effectively do that.

Can't really remember that, but the second test shows, they will maybe go the right way!

I guess we have a missunderstanding here. As you said, the defenders action against an attacker. I would say Wasd, DefAA and grouping could count as counter - as I said, I was not the person, who said, "there is no counter" The ship, that get killed is trying to counter. He uses counter tactics and counter measurements. The original discussion were about "there is no counter", I say, there are counters - any of these definition, that I gave, should match in different situations. All of my definitions exists. So technically, depending on the situation, all my definitions would count. If you go with the Viribus example like early - this ship lacks on counters, but there is still something, that someone can do. The Viribus won't get focused by a CV, when there are 3 AA-ships around. That would be a counter-tactic. But what I assume, why people think, there is no counter is, because they want tojust press one button to deny 100% of the strike. (though in some cases even that exists, when DefAA hits) I disagree here, it's a counter-measurement. Otherwise Smoke, WASD and everything is only a reduction of negative, which makes no sense for me Not sure, what you mean here. Yes a CV can pick targets and "pooping all over". But that's the point of classes like a CV. You have that in multiple games. Artillery in Tank games. Sieging/global range heroes in Moba. Snipers in shooter (How often are people raging in BF because of snipers? ;D). I think there are several types of counters, some have more effiecient counters, some have less. having a counter, that always denies everything is unrealistic, that doesn't even exists without CVs. If a cruisers uses all the maneuverbility and angles and armor, he can still take damage from overpens, or even pens, if the caliber of the BB is high enough. Same with CV, the CV will never be denied to 100%, he will often do less good hits like only 1 torp hit, or just one bomb hit.

You quote the half message out of context and then ask something, that actually explains it :D I said, it always depends on what kind of "counter" we talk. But also, if the sniper kills the soldier, then it's not a counter nor a damage reduction. It's a simply a kill. Main armament used to kill the enemy on range. That's the purpose of a sniper. (you are saying "by the defending side", technically a sniper can defend a position, but I would never say, he is being a defender, snipers are mostly placed to attack from safe positions. The counter of a sniper would be using his pistol, when the soldier comes too close) Actually it's not me, who has to answer that, because I never started with this "there is no counter" Counterplay for CV? I would say against CV. DefAA is positive action by the defending side, isn't it? I just say, there are counter vs CVs in different ways. There are coutner units, counter tactics and counter measurements. Viribus is obvioulsy not a counter unit and her counter tactics are also not the most effiecient, obviously.

Well, if the sniper kills a SMG soldier, then that is not a counter. That's the job of a sniper, the purpose of a sniper. And that's what I mean with definition of counter. About what kind of counter are we talking? Tactics? Tools? Measurements? Counter-unit? A counter unit would be a tank or a plane, who drops a bomb on the sniper A tool or measurement would be a smoke grenade A tactic would be running zic zac or hiding behind fortifications. Then you could go with CVs A counter unit would be a heavy-aa cruiser A tool or measurement would be smoke or Def-AA A tactic would be grouping, evasive maneuvers sounds like a Flak explosion with DefAA hits a squads and kills almost everything, which can happen and would be a counter imo. Counterplay would be for me something that makes someones life hard in anyway. That's actually a good point. Using a spotter doesn't exactly mean, that you always devaste a Smolensk right? Same with CV, just because someone uses all "counters" he has availabe, doesn't mean, he will have sucess with that. But the whole discussion is about "CV will always strike you there is no counter". But that's what I'm talking about, counters don't have always sucess. Doing an evasive maneuver to dodge torps won't work awalys, but it's a counter tactic and sometimes it works. Wouldn't call that counter, though counterplay sounds legit. Mostly you use the information smart to kill someone. I mean, destroying a CV with 20km torps from a long distance is also not a counter against a CV, hehe ^^ I mean yes, you could call it counter, but I don't call that counter

Well, that's what I mean, it depends on the definition of counter or counterplay. Everyone have a different idea of counterplay. For some a counter would be only, if there is a button, which destroys 12 planes per second. You could say, there are different levels of counters. Thus it doesn't make sense to see everything black and white and say, "There a no counters" To the Sniper example, fast moving is actually a good "counter" to sniper, because moving targets can be hard to hit. Or a zic zac movment can be a counter tactic to get closer to the sniper and kill him with the SMG

When did you tested it? The Servers are not online all the time, as long as I know

Do you see the " " at counter? ;) Did I say "Every no-AA ship"? ;) Though I was not specific enough, guess that's why you misunderstood it. I meant with "No-Aa ship". That some ships with weak AA can still perform well against CVs. For example Asashio. She was worse before the rework vs CVs, now she is better. Well, I follow the conversation, you just misunderstood something ;) I was talking about alpha damage Good position - around teammates with good aa. Islands to make drops harder. Map awareness - look where the CV is positioned and avoide him, before he even goes for a strike. If TBs are spotted - align with the TBs

Be careful, RTS fanboys won't like that ;D But this is actually true. The CV can pretty good support teams, where the team needs support, as you say "force multiplier". It's a bit like Abathur in Heroes of the Storm, if you know that. The average damage number is not interesting for the people here, they are only interested in how OP the CV in the hands of a unicum is vs bad and average players.

You would play the same like you would pre-rework, just with taking less alpha damage and less flooding damage What is this example even about - one of the worst AA-ships vs the best T4 CV. We could go with the example Imperator Nikolai vs Phoenix as well ;D

Well, said that a few times ;) Damagewise: a counter is something, that minimizes/decreases the damage. I mean you can see counter in different way. Counter against damage, counter against countermeasurements etc. Actually love it, when CVs are going for me. It's way more fun

The numbers are weird - 6 or 8 charges, but then 1600 to 3600 damage?

Imo there is still silent running missing. Where a sub hides with 0 knots, but also loses all vision

It doesn't stop gunfire either. That's why I take spotter planes on my BBs, so I can one-shot or heavy damage ships in smokes. I know coz I've hit and killed ships hidden in smoke while playing in any ship type (DD, Cruiser, CV, BB) As I said, it is how you define counter. I my definition a counter is not an action, that has 100% success rate to deny something to 100%. There are method, that work against CVs to minimize damage - Just like playing normal surface ships If a cruisers angles against a BB, then he will probably reduce the damage - worst case, he detonates (happend today to me) and best case - everything misses and bounces If a CV strikes a ship, lets say with TBs, a good player will try to evade the torps - worst case, the torps still hit heavily and best case - all torps miss. Just watched RTS Kaga vid lately. Dropped a Lyon 80% HP gone and 2x perma fire. Which counterplay has the Lyon? ;D I must be always a low-priorty target. CVs almost never go for me :( Though the last time I had 32 plane kills on my Ki :D But that's why I think, they should have a bit smaller deck numbers. It takes too long to punish bad plays until someone deplanes. But that's just my opinion.

As I said, it depends on how you define countering. One type of Countering for me would be an action to minimize damage. For me, Radar can be a counter, but also it can be A smoke against CV DefAA Good positioning etc. What I meant, "it doesn't stop any kind of attack" was meant in an analogy to "CV strikes cant be stopped" To not be able to stop a CV strike means for me, that alll counter measurements already had no success. He is already striking. Same for Radar. A radar won''t counter or stop already dropped torpedos or already shot shells. The strike is already happening. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Good example is concealment. It counters only, guess what, as long someones position is unknown. It doesn't work, if someone is spotted. Thus concealment is not a coutner measurement against CV, when the CV is already striking, because then he knows the position. Same for Radar. Concealment is not a counter, when under a radar. So it depends heavily on the situation and how someone defines counter. Concealment counters CVs, it's pretty hard to find a DD, if this DD never gave a hint, where he is.

Radar doesn't stop any kind of attack. You can lit up DDs, but he can still "strike you" Hydro doesn't stop torps, they still can hit Concealment works against everything same, and even more against air. Smoke - works in the same way for CV as for Ships. Never oneshotted with spotter plane a cruiser in a smoke with a BB? Armour works against CVs, bombs and rockets have penetration values, ships have torpedo bulges. Gun Calibres - Rockets, bombs, AA - all have calibres. Ammo types - how does counter something? It's an attack type. Also even in real life a counter doesn't counter always. Counters are mostly just actions against something to minimize damage imo. This works imo for every ship type, even against CVs

Then this game has no counters in general and it's pointless to talk about counters. As I said, it depends on how you define counter.