Pikkozoikum

That's often an issue. People compare often single stats or mechanics, without considering all the other stats and mechanics, which are related to that. The best was, when everyone talked about, that the AA range got nerfed... they didn't considered, that also the mechanics of the CVs changed, that the CV is now longer in AA zones, thus the shorter ranges are actually neseccary

I don't know about that statement. I could imagine that for some programming processes you don't have to know, how the game has to be played. Though I assume, that those, who are working on balancing also play the game. ^^ But there are also many games, who are imbalanced at the beginning. Like League of Legends, some champs are op or up, when they come out. Or WoW, I just remember tehre the Demon hunter, who was op for idk 1 month or more. Well yes, in some point I wish we would have more transparency. Just take the submarines, there were nothing for weeks, I wish they would tell us something about their progress, what their ideas are, so we could comment on the ideas. Otherwise I can imagine, why they don't do that. Just imagine you are a developer and you are working on a idea, which is accpeted with the lead designer, and now you announce this idea too early, and while you work on it, in the forum people only rant about that. Guess that's not much fun. I mean, wasn't even S_O ranting about the rant at reddit? People often forget, that developer are not the manager. Those work on something, and some are proud of their work and want appreciation and not complaints

Well, then we might need the RTS CV back? xD The max potential, you mean like the 10 Kills Yamato? Or the 410k RTS Haku? :D I guess it makes no sense to continue the conversation, since we have a different opinion. I have no issues, I have way more fun playing DD, than play DD against the RTS CV

Well, you can't compare the BB oneshot thing, with what the RTS CV did. When you get one shotted at 20 km. Then the player did something wrong and had really no luck. While for the RTS CV you just needed to get cross dropped, as long as there was no aa-cruiser around. Or remember the AP bombs, which one shots ^^ I like how the AA is now, I just think, they have to lower the deck number a bit

I guess there are many reason, why someone is against the Rework. -Some might be against it because they prefered the RTS style - nothing wrong with that, just the kind of argumentation sucks. -Some might be against it, because they don't like CV in general, and they have to deal with those now very often. But those often don't remember how annoying the RTS CV was. Just remember the "FIghter support pls". I got onced flamed back the day, that I'm the worst CVs EU and would never give fighter support. I had 3 kills, 53 fighter kills (with Kaga fighters...), and #1 with 2,3k base exp xD

Then you use smoke, or hide, or bait. Strength and weaknesses is one thing, but we play a pvp game with random battles, and it's important to have some kind of balance. If someone becomes useless at the beginning, because the CV can oneshot them, it's bad balanced. This is not any longer the case, nobody can get oneshotted by CV (exception might occur like detonations or T10 CV vs T8 low hp DD), and they changed the AA-extremes. There are no AA-monsters like Wooster and Mino, and no AA-weaklings. I think it'S way better to have ships with slightly below average AA and slightly above average, than super weak AA and super strong AA. Back the Day, I never liked the AA how it was, I wrote about that pre-rework. I think the AA is also pretty fine, how it is, only the plane deck number should maybe lowered.

Well someone just showed, that the worst CV palyers perform worse than the worst RTS CV players xD Though I said to that, that the worst players are not relevant for any discussion

There is no DefAA with panic effect, because the Rework has other mechanics. The RTS planes could almost drop instantly and had a turning circle like a tank. They didn't have to fly above the enemy ship after drop and turn over kilometers to get the second drop. The RTS was able to do the Strike in one go. The Rework can't do that. Different mechanics have to be considered, As I said multiple times, cheese the first strike correctly, you might take a 5k hit, which hurts, but maybe he also misses, then he loses his planes to the fleet. Or use smoke. Then he will also lose his squad and have nothing archieved. That also an issue of the RTS style, some ships were way to powerful against CV, and other were totally helpless. They just die without any chance to survive the first strike.

That was one example, an example like that one, that I quoted. I never got killed by one attack plane run, that does 10k and then 10k with the next two strikes.

Oof, and now the killer argument "if the CV is not having max hit potential, then he must be bad". I was talking about ranked, many people are there unicums. So the ranked situation is way thougher than any random condition. But I could say the same about RTS. if the RTS CV is not perma-spotting and onehitting the DD, than he must be a bad CV ... I just watched a Flamu RTS Video, where he kills a DD at the beginning with a cross drop pretty easily. Beside that, if I keep getting CVs with no ideas for thousands of games... where is than an issue? It seems there are almost no CV players with an idea playing. I never get those in the enemy team.

Also a DD can use a smoke, to deny the CV even for longer, that he will lose interest or waste time

One of my last ranked battle. I played Shima. I activated AA and instantly deactivated it, so I was hidden again. The enemy CV started an attack run towards me, but what he didn't know, I changed the direction and when he spottend me, he missed his first strike - 0 dmg. Then the other planes got shot by an cruiser and my AA. Sure, you can get a 10k dmg value. That happens. But at least as Haku pretty rarely. It's way better now, I have fun against CVs, just in very rare cases the CV is really tough. In ranked I remember only one situation, where a CV got me really hard, but I was over extending, because it was 6vs2 anyways

I was talking about the top 5% players. I wouldn't go with the worst players, you never know, why they are the worst. Imagine they have bad pcs and they crash all the time. With the RTS you could have sent them to auto drop and archive damage, I guess? Well, with the rework the planes just die. and he will archive 0 dmg in one match. That has nothing to do with Skill or any relevant scenario. Just saying it. But here the over all statistic of the T10s. The old T10 CVs had more impact in any category. Except the Exp of Haku, which are pretty irrevelant, if we also consider the recent exp nerf. You can also go with the presentation of combat effiency of CV fo wargaming, that also shows, that the RTS CV had a way higher combat effiency, which results into a higher impact. If the Rework would be op broken, the top player should perform better, especially in 3-man division.

Though HE bombs can't hit the citadell, I guess they do only 1/3 then, as long we don'T talk of potential dmg, potential dmg always calculates the max dmg. But beside the alpha strike we also get the perma floods and fires

Funny, a few hours ago someone told me, we can't compare 3 year old development with the not even one year old... and now it becomes valid as soon as it supports the RTS... xD But I think, if the Rework is so broken and op, the stats should be higher with a 3 man division, even more than the aa division. Though a T10 AA division still works fine btw. The statistic show, that all numbers are lower or in case of damage, even. That shows me, that the skill gap is smaller.

I would like to see some RTS pwnage videos. Just to see, why this kind of dominating is more enjoyable, than the rework.

Because after sinking a ship with a single strike is so useful for the rest of the battle, while a ship, that takes minutes to get sunk can't do anything?

Well, but some stubborn people prefer to get sent back instantly to the port, instead of fighting a few minutes longer... *sarcasm*

Normally people here argue with skill. If something is wrong xy is just a potato. In this case it must be a bad CV player then.

The skill gap between the CV players was higher. You can even see that, the winrate in total dropped for the superunicums. If the winrate over all drops for the best players means, that they have less impact, than before, otherwise they would win in the same rate or more.

The problem with RTS was, that the better CV will just delete the planes of the enemy, thus the skill gap is huge, the better CV player will deny the damage of the bad CV player and he will also delete other surface ships. That was what I meant. I don't know, why people think, they can't do anything against the CV... but I assume most people go with 80% WR CV player vs 40% DD player. Why not going with a 60% WR DD player against a 40% CV? The most important thing against CV is, to group for AA support. That was even the case pre rework, though with RTS you needed a super no-fly zone ship. If you got lets say 2 Nagatos and one Myoko, that won't really stop a CV. But if you play now with 3 ships in a group, they should be able to half or even compltetly destroy all the planes - mostly only the first or the second strike will go through, and there you have to evade these strikes. The first thing is, not to make the strike easier for the CV. I see so many people, who align with the AP bombs and make it even easier, isntead for turning out. Just an example. That doesn't mean, that you can always fully deny a strike, and I don't know , why people want that, nobody can deny always the full damage. When you get shot by a BB, even angled you will sometimes take a lot damage. A cruiser will still burn, torpedos of DDs will hit, even when trying to dodge. Btw, this is how you dodge torpedos *just joking*

Are you telling me, that you have 0 plane loses, and do always maxium of your damage, when people play somehow normal? I requote it again "if there is enough dps". Sure you can show worst/best case scenarios, but that is not really adding anything to a discussion. If we talk about balacning and mechanics, we should maybe consider a initial condition, where people are more or less same skill, and not when one super unicum beats potatoes. otherwise we can go with superunicum anti-cv division against a 40% wr CV, which also makes no sense.

I remember just, when people said in this forum, that they mostly one shot Des Moines with Midway AP bombs and stuff like that ;D So what would be the point of playing CV, if you are able to deny all strikes? Sounds like the CV is not allowed to do anything. The game mechanic, if you like or not, is mostly, that you have to evade the first strike and group, that you get enough AA together to shot down the rest of the planes, otherwise the CV will keep striking more than one time. The first strike of a CV has not the same meaning like the first strike of a RTS CV (with 5 squads for example) I like the idea, because it gives the CV a chance to get at least a bit damage out, without sitting around for 10 minutes and wait for victims. And most 1st strikes won't hurt that much. Of couse there are sometimes heavier hits, but that is part of the game. A BB can go with 40k and more per first strike and nobody is complaining about it. I played almost 150 games with shima in ranked and it was more fun with CVs in the match, than without, at least for me. Also it is fun to give support-aa fire, when a cruiser close to me got attacked. It wasn't huge damage, but better than nothing. In some games i had 30k aa damage in the shima. As I said before, i just would like a change to the burst damage, which should be manually aimed like a gun salvo

One of the rare good comments, looking for improvements! I'm kinda fine with the Fighter consumable, though I could imagine, that controllable fighers could be really fun with that perspective.The problem is, that the skill gap could rise, also people will call for fighter support all the time, so the CV can't strike What I would like, if the attack planes with rockets become Fighters again with MGs or MCs and then they can go into an attack run and shoot with MGs and MCs at ships to disable temporaly or permanent AA. They have to hit different spots like the ping spots of submarines to get higher effects. But they could also use their ammunition to shoot down planes. Balancing wise the AA have to become stronger, since the CV is able to deactive them. Sector reininforcement is a good idea imo, too, but it should be aimed like a salvo of a gun with more impact like I described before

The AA changed, there are no extreme AA values, that means no monster Mino AA values, but also the AA weak ships are now stronger. So grouping in general works now better. Imagine you would group with IJN ships only pre-rework, that was almost like having no AA. Also AA is not about denying 100% of the strikes, it's about reducing the strike power. The first strike often goes out, as long the CV doesn't run into a AA explosion, which also could happen to good players, just rarely. Thus the first strike is about to avoide the damage somehow with everything you got, AWSD, Smoke, islands, baits. And then, if there is enough dps, the rest of the squad will melt while and after the first strike. Though I would prefer, if the Burst damage of AA would do something like 0%-15% + base damage, depending on tier. But also the Burst fire has to be manually aimed. like a gun salvo with flight time. Depending on the hit it does the damage of 0-15% + x