Nibenay78

People play Zao? Haven't seen one in like the last 1000 battles - except when I tried it myself again and it felt insanely powercrept..

But how can we get to make our placebo reports??

Honestly, if they are OP, balanced or UP - they are still boring to play and destructive for the rest of the gameplay. downvote for the small font

Hah! So am I! I'm sure it was fun and engaging for everyone!

I think we should have a continous generation of these threads

Time? You are years behind. Start by writing a negative review on steam for example.

I dislike Artillery there also, but at least they have some massive disadvantages and it's not impossible to snipe them back with arty. Here CVs are practically immune by design to other CVs, at least to the extent it's a complete waste of time to snipe them away at the start of the game in your own CV. I have not played LoL but I did play Dota, and the champions/carry characters there were extremely weak at the start of the game and supports were relatively stronger but trailed off vastly by the end. Aside for having a minimum of derettent to not be rushed down, CVs need no support really to do their job. They start out strong and grow stronger. Indeed the current state is what matters, and it's as bad I'd rather have CVs removed than anything else. It seems some of your problems was playing AA weak ships left you helpless. Well then maybe you should play AA strong ships, or stay close. It's kinda like the "fleets" you mentioned earlier, except before spesific ships had that spesific job and good teamplay on the AA ships part was just to help out. This role is mostly gone together with flanking, sneaking, ambushing or just moving a bit aside to make crossfire. edit: Started playing games in 86-87 so I'm sure I have touched by a few of the "hard games" with little balance or wonky mechanics. I expect different in 2021 by a multi-million company with hundreds of employees. Of course all ships should be valid, but thats another of WGs failings tbh. Then again to have say 100 ships with different feel and configuration, some will be "generally" more stronger or weaker than others. It's always frustrating to die, but it's vastly easier to avoid torpedoes from luck/forethought/skill/etc than any if the CVs 99% guided strikes. I take devstrikes from torpedoes happily compared to the incessant harrassment of any CV. To the point that when I am clearly going to live <10 secs and the CV is coming for the death blow, I'll just show broadside to everyone else. As it should be unfun, just the same to lose one of your major strong traits/advantages in playing a AA ship. In minotaur it's often more detrimental to me to actually shoot at planes than to just remain hidden. Sure it can make some flak and newbies can ram them, but since I tend to stay up front with this ship to help DDs or push a flank, it's quite an amount of steel that gets thrown my way. It's not uncommon to end up with 1-2 mill pot dmg just from behing spotted a very tiny fraction of the gametime, and one can only dodge so much when several BBs open fire at the same time. If the air spot range for Minotaur was smaller than AA range, I'd probably just keep it turned off as long as planes are in long range AA and not going for me spesifically but someone else. I count that as part of a BBs weakness. I played a LOT of BB for a while and I see it as my job to assist DDs with my insane alfa, range, DPM. After all they are the "counter" to BBs in this game, and despite this, I enjoyed found it fair that CVs generally was strong vs BBs.

Of course, didn't we all expect that? Another reason to write some bad reviews...

Just a quick fix thinking people will get more speed to get into fights. It's insanely costly compared to the other options. a flat bonus would be so more useful for slow ships. This % crap is just crap.

It will be amazing, you'll be there 1 second before!

@Pikkozoikum I'm not sure if you count me as a "casual" type player or not, but I had 6-7 RL friends play this game on and off, way less than myself (lets say 500-5000 battles). Every single one hated disliked CVs, and the two that still plays occationally (mostly because I play regularly) hate the rework to the point they would probably not play if I wasn't here. Very anecdotal, I know..but ...

Makarov? Special price for you my friend!

Most people dont like dying regardless, however I don't mind the others because you can generally actively do stuff to avoid torpedoes/broadsides/HE spam. Even then it's not fun, sorry. It's just annoying In which BB will you just take 1 drop and kill the squad? Please let me know which BB I have to grind for that! It isn't just a support, it can effectively take out ships alone either by killing them or forcing them to retreat. Artillery in WoT is another abnormal-cell-growth, but luckily WoT is so insane that I stopped playing it years ago. I've logged back in each christmas for fun, but log out after a few days of trying... We were talking about RTS and oneshotting, obviously. It was more interesting than what is now actually. I could kill DMs with RTS, I'm HARDLY a CV unicum. My bad but I'm not talking perfect fairness but I'm sure we can agree and disagree what is "fair enough". Speed is very relevant in any game. Especially in a game where the majority of the ships go around 25-35 knots with a few more extreme exceptions. Yet being able to reposition your guided weapons with 150+knots speed is rather massive. Can I please detach a BB turret and fly it around to shoot people at point blank? AA guns and flak animations could've been included as a graphical detail anyways. the gameplay is mindnumbingly boring however. Personal perference of course. But it was nice to have a game inside the game that was different. WG didn't think so of course. Because DDs are a rather influential class to begin with. I met some broken CVs, it wasn't fun. My question was just HOW would a DD be a support? mostly out of curiousity. DDs suffers most because they are up front against an enemy that can both strike and spot them again and again, and while faster and manouverable than bigger ships, they still can't always relocate to safety if slightly extended very quickly. Sure they should probably not have gone there in the first place.. But then we're back to whats fun. Clearly sneaking around or flanking alone isn't fun for you. Then use "majority" or something. Plus I'd like to see if it's really as bad as you say that people dont like playing support class. I don't care how WG changes flak anymore. The newbies sometimes ram it and the better ones don't. It generally makes little difference. WG have said that they will keep the popularity of the class regardless of the measures to do so. I assume that includes the insane factor WG has added into the math. Anyways most of it is at <4.5km. Oh wait maybe some thunderer has hit you once.... But not to the extent they could pinpoint the attack. Midway had a large spread that even broadside torpedoes could miss. True, he relies only on the auto-generated-flak and steadily diminishing AA value. Yeah instead of him raping your planes, You'd fly into flak :D Same result though. Lets not forget these no-fly-zones tended to be squishy ships that die reasonably fast. It's not much more different than "no sail zone" against 2 DM with radars. it's mostly an ego shooter. Zao was one of the best ships in the early game, AA not so good. Shima was buffed due to influx of other gunboat DDs I believe. It still outspotted Gearing when that was the only opponent. Iirc they didnt take damage, they just rolled for a kill shot each second. This could've been easily improved by AA getting better if the planes loitered around too long. Representing the gunners getting the bearing on the planes or whatever. Sure, WG wants a game where crap players can join in and make a small impact instead of being annihilated by the better players. Fair enough. But I'd also enjoy that my skill is useful. Maybe it's not weighted as important, but I would be surprised if it's not there. Lets say you could chose to be immune to CV Strikes. Wouldn't that be worth something. I meant DPM in RTS and crap-work. hum.. Which is why many dislike Minotaur, however at least when I play it, I tend to have more DPM when actually firing than in most other ships. Huge alfa felt more... realistic (a word I dont like to use here, lets call it immersive and having versimilitude). stuff.. It would be interesting to play without HP bars though.. As mr crappy CV player, I dont find it awfully hard to make make perfect drops. Basically again it's in the attackers hands not defender. Even DDs have random spreads on torpedoes. Really thinking to skip it. Sure but then the allrounder can count as a baseline for each stat/attribute/callitwhatever This is not a disadvantage, if one team has a CV so does the other. In fact it a reason to dislike CVs even more. For every CV pair added, the pressure on the surface ships is just increased. I suggest we allow 3-4 CVS pr side and see how amazingly fun it will be for everyone else. As I said before, I played a 6 vs 6 random match with 3 CVs on each side. Great fun! Complately irrelevant attribute, and if it gets under gunfire from a single destroyer, it's not uncomming to see the destroyer blow up before these "non-tanking HP" run out. We can argue back and forth if this is fair or not, but it certainly breaks my immersion when a CV out-tanks a gunship close up (ignoring torpedoes obviously). Again, both both teams have one less capper so kinda irrelevant stat/attribute No other ships rips apart armor (destroys AA mounts) with each strike, while ALSO having the benefit that any other damage done by anyone else will also lower the defences effectively. Thus increasing DPM. A CV has all the better attributes which is most of the time relevant and bad attributes are most of the time irrelevant. And then we can consider their worse attributes. It's generally how ships are balanced to some extent. Before I liked the occational CV match, even though they had a massive impact. Now I report every CV player I meet and would be happy to have the entire class removed along with all AA effect, even if that would lessen the immersion. Just gone. Why bother? WG doesn't give a single excrement about suggestions here. Ranting at least feels better, even if it's also irrelevant. Plus I need something to do while waiting for the Minotaur get back to port after being nuked by some CV. You gave an example being torped by a DD in a BB. The BB most likely has 40-90 seconds to make ANY random manouver that could possibly save him. In this spesific case it IS just as easy to not sit still, in which case I think we both agree he deserves to die. Just the same with players who doesn't know how to turn. But why bother playing anything else then? it is not perfect rock/paper/sciccors, but its close enough. Sure there are expections but overall it kinda works that way. 1 vs 1 is certainly not 12 vs 12 NOR is it a duel in a 12 vs 12 match. If a CV goes for me in 12vs12 we both knows that even if I'm alone for the moment, I can't spend the next 3 minutes rushing the CV in a BB without anyone seeing me and engaging. That said I had something like 70-80% winrate in CV in the brawls and I consider myself pretty crap in CV. Basically the CV is like having a smolensk player that can see and shoot the entire map. Due to range he will not have the best DPM but he will never stop hitting you. Great fun! Also if his aim is on you, everone else sees you! For many people, yes. Also didn't we agree no-flyzones didn't stop devstrikes back then? But again, right now I'd be happy to lose all my Carriers and have the crap class removed. Good good, clearly you're not bothered by playing against a class that effectively is griefing other players. edit: dont play and write, might miss half the quote!

Wows still have some measure of rock/paper/scissor among the 3 regular classes, while CVs have the tools to specifically harass each of the others. I'm sure your intention is not to say this, but it seems to me that it's ok that 3 various classes are OK to have some distavantages aganst each other, while CVs are fine to be good against all? Because that's what they are. They can hunt down and kill ANY of the 3 classes without being at an inherent disadvantage. Not very relevant, against the DM is supposed to be "strong" vs CV, so it would be reasonable that it kills a plane or two when being oneshotted? While BBs are "weak" against DDs so it also is reasonable they can do little in that situation? Are there no fly zones or not? I can't say I remember CVs being a huge issue while playing DM, unless I specifically mis-played in which case I most certainly deserve some punishment. Popping DefAA at the wrong time certainly counts as misplay. Of course its generally not duels, with 12 headless chickens running around, the environment is certainly more complex that that, yet often one ends up in a near-duel due to range/land/other ships dying or whatever. DM vs DM is "fair" because they have equal capabilities by default. If one DM wins due to skill, isn't that what we want? Not because one DM can magically relocate at 150knts while the other can't? Indeed and CV rework pretty much removed many interesting tactics for me. I can only imagine what a disaster SS will be. And for the record, I didn't complain the first 3-6 months of the rework, hoping that WG would actuall balance things out. But no, we were stuck with neverending waves of skyrats coming at us. Like having DD in a 5 radar cruiser match? playing single BB with only smolensks? or playing a 6 vs 6 game early morning once, 3 CVs on each team. The first surface ship didn't get out of spawn. Hosho ftw! I'm sure they had a blast. Your wish is for DDs to be support ships. What should they support with exactly if not AA? Smoke doesn't work well for bigger ships anymore. Most don't have hydro to screen for torps. Sit in smoke and spam low caliber HE or just zigsag in front looking for torps? I could make proposals to improve RTS gameplay. Seeming your biggest issue was playing poor AA ships. That could be amended, yet I also played a lot of such back in the day, generally acceppted that because my AA is crap, my other abilities are better. It seemed often fair enough. You said "But people like big damage numbers and solo Rambo plays, so probably nobody would like a support role^^ "probably nobody" - well nobody is a very strong term, it does include me. But I enjoyed to play AA support ships (Montana, Gearing, DM and Minotaur) back in the day. So your assumtion is wrong. Right now I have full AA build on Minotaur which includes the dumba** module already lowering my rate of fire by 12%, not to mention the extra captain skill points. Yet I'm left with the feeling it's just not worth it because medium AA range is so short that it mostly "protects" myself, but by the time the CV has raped my teammates, it's not going to protect me either. Since I can't stop the strikes, the 16mm plating sure isn't going to stop the damage. But sector doesn't mitigate much, on most ships it's a joke. Give me the "fear" effect back when I hit sector reinforcement correctly and I'd be good. In fact it should be baked into the captain skills for cruisers! Sure but I also dont want to use a heal because the CV will be upon me again 30 seconds later. Yeah amazing, the bad players now do nothing, while good players do even better! rejoyce! Well it's not like one has many options except rely on AA? Smoke is useful but a rather limited resource for many ships. Didn't we just agree earlier that it was perfectly possible to kill the AA ships with RTS also? RTS had many issues, but while I thought CVs are OP and not the best design back then, today I see it as a complete [deadly-abnormal-cell-growth-disease] in this game to the point I will not recommend anyone to start playing wows. Just enjoy playing 18knts ships with 0 AA as newbie. Probably a great introduction to the game. So why couldn't we just buff the weaker ships then instead of getting this crapshow that is now? Also did you feel that the AA weak ships didn't have any advantages due to their weak AA? Now I'm sure we can agree that noone knows how WG balances ships :D but if AA is a "strong attribute" then clearly the ship should suffer in other attributes? Smoke is of course another plus that adds up. Right now there is nothing more satisfiying than sitting in smoke watching the planes burn while throwing a (meaningless) report to the CV. I believe our dear @El2aZeR make some calculations about DPM before and now. A vague memory the result wasn't much different than before. I also miss with BBs shells by being completely retarded at times despite doing on average well in some of them. I'm sure CVs do miss also occationally ;) Frustrating but it also gave you something to think about.. do you put out 2 fires or save the repair for the torpedoes. Today it's all the same. In a BB you burn or flood all the time, it's just a DoT effect that is almost always on, its bland and boring. The only interesting thing is the speed loss with flooding. I like that being torped has a different flavour than burning... But DoT is tedious and boring, like I said above, all you do is burn burn burn. Give some newbie a Smolensk and tell him to just sit in smoke and fire. He doesn't have to actually aim better than hitting any part of the ship. Eventually it will burn despite shattering. To me, playing against a CV nowadays feels like you're being harrassed by some flying gunboat slowly wittling you down. If you're lucky enough, the AA will "scare him away" for a short moment until he returns 30 seconds later. Mind numbingly annoying design. how about we make a ship that has pitiful DPM but even the most crappy player can have a 99% hitrate from 30km away? Sounds like brilliant design right? I almost feel CVs are close to this at times. How is a %-chance to kill a plane pr second MORE boring than just adding up static damage pr plane? Manual AA would be great, but it will never happen. At least in RTS you had a panic effect and a manual target option. I'm not sure I feel that boosting "one side" of the ship is as interesting. it's ok, too late to watch now and i'll probably forget it tomorrow. Feel free to remind me. So what should escorts do in this game? and like I said above, I enjoyed escorting other ships against CV, but it was mostly possible/useful/fun in very spesific ships. So which exactly are the CVs disadvantages? Please do tell. All he have to do is not drive straight or make an accidental turn, and the masstive strike will do nothing. Again BBs are "weak" against DD, but CVs rule supreme against all classes. Except their own which is purposely almost pointless to strike at. Again, what is the disadvantage of CVs? Running out of planes? well the rest of us runs out of AA mounts and hitpoints.

summed up: CVs are simply better than all classes and doesn't need to be balanced.

Hmm... when I run out of daily reports for the two CVs. Usually time to stop playing then :D

Of course it reduces damage but its still just that. My own skill to avoid damage is mostly irrelevant. If I meet El2 in a CV I'm at at a disadvantage in ANY OTHER CLASS. If I meet him in a surface ship, this may not be the case despite me being a worse player. In worst case I can even go for a ram, or blow his turrets off. You completely didnt get the point. My example was just that. If a player farks up, plays badly or just sits completely static and sleeping... he should be able to be punished by any of the other classes. Your example is exactly as my example. except in my example the RTS-DM was massively dangerous to attack (CV being at a disadvantage) while in your case the DD is already the strong player against a single BB. DDs are pretty much the only class that can "solo rambo". For myself I enjoy sneaking around with them, making torpedo ambushes, trying to get caps from odd angles (or the regular ones) or just make massive area denial spreads with shimakaze (for example). All of these gameplays are mostly down the drain if the CV is vaguely aware. Maybe it's more realistic, but then give all DDs good AA? for the record I used AA build on Gearing. With DefAA panic effect and 7.2 km range, it was an amazing support ships for battleships back in the day. How useful is the gearing and DefAA today? Probably better off fighting for the caps or gunning down other DDs. Also you're wrong, I enjoyed that support role, in fact I always played Minotaur with it's amazing 8.6 umbrella as just that. Sitting near caps for both AA and gun firepower for the DDs, or near a flank so that AA extended over/near the open water BBs. This type of gameplay is mostly trash now. I still enjoy playing support in Mino, but now planes must generally come within 4km to be really effective. And again, isn't that the purpose of being good? now there is NO skill interaction as the defender has no "skill" in pressing defAA or not. Call it a marginal thing, but at least it's an active choise the defender must make. Sure and was it amazing design? maybe not, yet at least there existed ships whose main purpose was support ships. See above. Crossdrops wasn't good just because those who pulled it off (good players) force you into unavoidable damage. But thats still what good players do. No change there. It was before FDR, I think it was either US or IJN While flying directly over the best AA ship in the entire game in pure DPS - whose only goal at the moment was to defend said BB again in your scenario you're with low/poor AA ships. Try dropping a US AA cruiser into that? or even a DD with DefAA. Sure if you are allowed to heal and dont take 30-40k in one blast. But I'm sure we both know how the situation is against heavy caliber AP shells with the amazing 16mm armor :D So why even have an AA ship? its Minotar was spesifically supposed to be amazing against CVs. It got other drawbacks because of that. If Minotaur spot range from air was shorter than AA, I would probably chose to NOT use long range AA due to the minimal effect on most CVs towards the risk that you're spotted and everyone aims at you. Because there will be more torpedoes strikes in succession, not all at once and then a break. But then again 2 floods deal about the same damage iirc someone from WG said. Which is a good thing if we account for hard to avoid ikea torps on top of fast recurring CV strikes. Although I kinda liked that danger with that. in my view flooding and fires should be more dangerous but less common. Just my view of things to make it feel more "realistic" and immersive. Right now if one plays BB, it's basically permaburning, which is kinda dull and reduces the feeling that fire (or flooding) is dangerous to a ship. DoT is also boring and frustrating way to die. Given the excessive HE spam at times, it's just one more DoT. Of course AA is flattened. I disagree. I prefered the old style massive damage, but options to avoid it and a longe time between strikes. Even if that option was the push of a button at the right time. Were CVS overpowered in the right hands then? yes. Are they now? yes, but vastly more demoralizing to play against. All ships can do useless damage that has no effect, probably we all do that every match. Besides his relentless attacks might push you out of the game and reduce your options vastly. Again this forces you into blobs. If it was like before that some ships had massive contributions to AA, it'd be easier to split into fleets for flanking and crossfire. I suppose such attempts are frowned upon and should be discouraged. But then my friend CAN do something about it if he is near death with regular combat. * if the range is long enough he can manouver to avoid shells. Note here: very often showing your a** to the ship shooting at you will often result in showing a** to the entire enemy team on your side and help all incoming fire. A CV will just flank you. * if he is near land, he can hide. A CV can mostly ignore this and it even makes AA worthless for the approach * If he is at some range, he can stop firing and go dark or use his last time to hopefully get out of range. it's hardly the same. If you are very near death against a CV, it's a matter of time. Maybe he needs 10-20 secs more to re-spot you or make a flank attack, but as you yourself said the attack will and should go through assuming the CV player is not completely incompetent.

One of my best BB battles ever was dealing about 60k damage all game. I blew apart 3 full health tier 10 DDs with Montana using HE. It was no other ships nearby at that stage so I had nothing better to do than fight over a cap. A massive success for me, but 60k in a BB would count as crap if you only look at damage done, in fact I'd count 60k really really poor usually.

In most circumstances you can dodge shells and angle to a very significant degree. As we both know it's usually not 100% damage reduction - but your skill is quite essential in the moment. 1) If you are "good" in CV you can chip away a weakened opponent REGARDLESS of his skill and even multiple defenders. If he disengages too far, he will just fall behind the "AA blob" and probably be an even easier target, at the cost of slightly longer flying time. At worst you'll lose your squad (which is irrelevant until late game) 2) if you are "good" in a surface ship, the fact you have to move into firing range of a "blob" will probably leave you massively damaged and either forced to retreat or die under steel spam. Usually not a trade worth to do. Sure it could be more evened out, but did they bother? Yet I have distinct memories of one shotting full health Des Moines that were static and inattentive while playing CV. As it should be when attacker makes a good run and defender has target fixation on someone else. It's a while since I played this game, it was well before commander rework. Me (minotaur) and a BB (i think tier 9) was left on our side and CV and a radar cruiser was left on the other. Now I really needed the BB to harass the radar cruiser in order to go cap as we were behind on points. they were on the north side, and we came from south, both towards central cap. I was almost undamaged and like I said, positioned myself about 3-4km in front of the BB to force the CV to either fly over me OR at least make a massive circle around, in which time I could fall back. He kept flying mostly over me with full squads and he was an average CV player. He managed to chip away some 40-50k hp on the BB while nothing else happened and the enemy cruiser was still out of firing range. I did my best to keep within medium AA range using sector reinf and turning to keep the sector pointed at the planes for maximum amount of time. The BB also "tried to dodge" as best he could. He died after probably 4-5 squads having passed over me. At which point I became the target... and let me add a disclaimer - its a while ago and details may be wrong. I do not have the replay. However the situation left me really really negative towards the rework and it's a few minutes of gameplay I'll always remember from this game. Why can a average CV bascially ignore THE BEST aa ship in the game and just kill off a damaged BB during endgame? I'm a "slightly above average" Minotaur player and the BB did as best he could. Yet our efforts were completely irrellevant. In a situation that the CV should be We all know that good AA ships are "balanced" around actually having good AA back in the day. Fine, let Minotaur AA drop to average like all other ships and give me 15% faster reload and a bit more hitpoints... I agree, BBs came out best of the rework, but that's only because everyone else came out VASTLY worse. The only reason I don't worry in a BB is that usually there are just more juicy targets for a CV than me, not because my beloved Montana actually has AA that discourages strikes. Wouldn't it increase immersion of BBs were the prime targets of carriers and GOOD (AA) cruiser play would also include supporting them with AA? If every strike always can come through you can never save a low hp friend.

How many ships clustered together would you consider "fair" to actually kill a squadron before a strike is made? Is it ok to fly straight over a AA maxed out minotaur to kill the battleship behind (edit: about 2-4km directly behind, edit2: for clarification - minotaur (me) was barely damaged and BB behind was at about 40-50% hp and he was essential to keep alive)?

Since I got all for free it's all good. Then again I wonder who wants to play €50 for a pixelship.. once ok, but repeatedly? However I WOULD BE HAPPY to pay a €10 monthly subscription to a warship game where the company delivered well thought out ships and balanced gameplay without million micro-rewards and other phone-game style tricks to lure people into playing the game.

Shouldn't poor Asashio have a chance to down a plane???

"it's everyone else..."

Or "I can't shoot down a single plane while the carrier does what it want"

If you always come top but generally lose, wild guess such a player sits back and rarely helps out...