xxNihilanxx

Battleships and incompetence*. Same as I see in every game. *Why the hell would a second (or third, ffs) DD fire torps at an Edinburgh in smoke who is most likely running hydro after seeing the first DD fire a full volley of torps into said smoke? Incompetent fools should have used them on a different target.

That is a good point and I fully understand that any one player can only be playing one ship in any given match and so if they are playing a US CL they aren't playing a US CA. This assumes, though, that a significant proportion of players play and stick to a particular line of ships because they enjoy that particular playstyle at the expense of all others. I feel that this is only partly true as there are a significant number of players who also like to grind (I hate that word, gaming is not really a grind) each new line as it comes along. This is understandable as it helps prevent any feeling of stagnation plus people enjoy the little micro-rewards of progress - new module unlocked, new ship unlocked etc. I know that for me personally, outside of the extreme low tiers (<4) tier 10 is my least played tier, I prefer instead to progress down a new line. Consequently, there will be a significant proportion of players who, for example, had finished the US CA grind and had, perhaps, moved on to the KM Cruiser line. Now, instead, we have an additional radar-equipped line for those who feel they had finished other grinds to begin on. It isn't radar that is attracting people to the new US CL line it is novelty. If the US CL line had been released sans radar it would still be enjoying the popularity that we are seeing currently. It is not a stretch to assume that of the players currently playing the new Cleveland (and beyond upon release), many of them would actually be taking Zaos or Hindenbergs into battle had the split never occurred. The higher the number of ships with radar that exist in game the higher the probabilty that any one ship one could meet in game will have radar, assuming of course that there doesn't exist a line of radar-equipped ships that are entirely trash to the point of being unplayable. This is easily testable by taking the hypothesis to both extremes. If the number of ships in game with radar is zero the probability of meeting a ship with radar is zero. If all ships in game have radar the probability of meeting a ship with radar is 100% The greater the number of ships with radar the higher the probability that any one ship will have radar. Obviously the above is not entirely true as it assumes that a player's ship choice would be random, which of course it is not. Players' ship choice is governed, as you say, by personal preference but it is also governed, as I have stated, by novelty. The more new lines that are introduced with radar the greater the incidence of radar will be in any one game. This is why my argument in this thread has been that radar was fine but that NO new ships should have or should be introduced into the game with that particular consumable. With regard to your team distribution argument it is true that a lot of players have been playing cruisers lately but I would argue that this is not solely because the new ships have radar but because there are new cruisers in game. If the numbers that ColonelPete posted are to be believed the highest proportion of people who have switched class are BB players as BB numbers have taken a hit of approximately 10%. I would argue, therefore, that the sudden drop of 10% of the BBs in game have made it more viable to take cruisers, both US and non-US, into any particular game. We have new cruisers in game so lots of people are playing the new cruisers instead of old BBs so it's safer to play cruisers in general. It was not necessary to give the US CL line radar in order to achieve this. It would have been the case even if the Cleveland didn't have it. This has always been true following the introduction of any new line. Put a new line of BBs in the game and the world and his wife are queueing in a BB. Put a new line of CAs in the game game and the world, his wife and their Jack Russell Terrier are queueing up in CAs. We know this, we have seen it countless times. Therefore in order to achieve the kind of ship-type-balance that you argue is preferable it is necessary only for WG to continually introduce more Cruiser lines and fewer Battleship lines. Giving them all radar is as unnecessary as it is cheap and gimmicky. In my opinion the biggest problem that this game has (outside of the fact that the only balance WG care about is their bank balance) is that WG have consistently tried to force changes in the meta and they have predominantly tried to do this using gimmicky consumables and so-called "global" changes. The thing about true metas in game is that, for the large part, they are self-regulating and thus evolve "organically". Absent any external interference the situation would have been: BBs stuggle to avoid DD torps so some BB players switch to DDs for payback whilst others switch to cruisers to kill the DDs. Many of the new DD players who once preferred BBs realise that DDs are not as easy to play as they liked to think so a good proportion of those also switch to cruisers instead. So now we have a situation whereby there are few BBs and a lot of cruisers. Too many cruisers make DD play harder so a large proportion of DD players decide to switch to BBs to punish the ever-present cruiser threat. This leads to there being, for example, 5 BBs - 5 CA/CLs - 2 DDs per side. Cruisers are now finding it harder to survive because of the increased BB threat so guess what? They switch to DDs or BBs to counter the BBs or Cruisers repectively. BBs struggle to avoid DD torps so some BB players switch to DDs for payback whilst others switch..... etc. etc. This is what a naturally shifting meta looks like. Yes there will be "blips" as new lines are introduced, but in the interim periods between releases the natural order will be reestablished. Introducing gimmicky consumables that HARD COUNTER any one particular ship type upsets this natural ecosystem. Ask yourself this... would people play BBs if WG were to introduce a consumable for cruisers that would allow, for a limited time, every shell they hit with to do FULL penetration and damage to any ship regardless of armour or angle? You can guarantee that in that event BBs would be prime target as they are easiest to hit. Can you see how the introduction of such a thing would make playing BBs less viable. Now lets start giving that consumable to more and more ships. Who would want to play BBs then? NOBODY in this game wants Gold Ammo to be introduced. A consumable that negates a BB's primary defence - armour/angle - would be anathema to all and yet, a consumable that completely negates a DD's (and some CLs) primary defence - stealth (be that low detection or smoke) - is perfectly acceptable. It is no stretch to see that, in essence, radar is gold ammo to DDs as it negates their primary means of defence. Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with radar and I appreciate that it is here to stay but, and it's a BIG BUTT, we have enough already. We don't need any more. TL/DR Grow an attention span.

Which tool do you feel exists in excessive numbers and how does the image show that? Looking at the picture I see evidence of three tools in use, possibly four. The Edinburgh is running hydro and has just left smoke - that's two. One of the enemy DDs has used smoke - that's three. The Z-23 could possibly also be running hydro - so possibly four. Again, you aren't making yourself very clear.

I could be wrong but I don't think the Des Moines is particularly new but I do know it was quite prolific in matches long before the US cruiser split. Moskvas and Donskois were somewhat less prolific but DMs and Baltimores were quite well represented.

This reply, just as the image you posted, makes absolutely no sense in the context of the discussion happening here. I think you are going to have to elaborate somewhat as your point is far from clear.

The prevalence, or lack thereof, of cruisers at high tiers (or indeed any but the lowest of tiers) is not a radar issue but rather one of an over proliferation of BBs. Adding more radar to counter the DDs who like to feast on BBs won't help that situation at all. Of the cruisers I did see, a large proportion of them were radar equipped. I can safely tell you this as I play DDs a lot and as any DD player worth his salt will tell you the first thing you do when entering a match is count and identify the radar ships.

How would radar have helped in that situation? Looking at where the torps originated and the minimap there were no ships in a position to radar the DDs that fired those torps. Image clearly shows that radar was never needed to deal with smoke as torps were ALWAYS the counter to it. Not sure how the Z-23 lost health but it doesn't look like that wall of torps hit anything. I'm not seeing a problem.

Again you are mistaken. You think the proliferation of radar is due to a temporary popularity of a particular line but you are failing to take further implications into account. Before the patch there were 12 tech-tree ships that could be equipped with radar. In practice it was more likely that only 6 of these would actually equip radar in random matches. (Most Brit cruisers and PA DDs prefer smoke in randoms). The transfer of the Cleveland heralds the arrival of a new line of ships that will increase the number of tech-tree ships that can equip radar to 15. This is an increase of 25% overall. In practice, however, as I stated above most Brit CLs and PA DDs equip smoke in randoms which makes the effective increase in radar ships a rise from 6 to 9 which is an increase of 50% It is this increased proliferation that people feel is causing problems. To put it in terms that you would understand. There are currently 56 tech-tree ships that can equip smoke. How would you feel if WG were to introduce another 28 ships into the tech-tree overnight that could equip smoke. RU BBs, maybe? They could be given smoke. A full line of Italian BBs - they might like smoke also. Italian cruisers too - hell, why not? I do not particularly feel that the radar that was in the game was too much of a problem but I do feel that adding more could very well be. If it were up to me I would not change radar I would strip it from the US CL line entirely and stop putting any further radar equipped ships into the game. I don't want to remove radar, I don't want to change radar, the amount of radar that existed was manageable. Sooner or later, however, as more is added it will become too much. I think it is better for the game that we don't get to that point.

It's easier than seeing through an island.

I have highlighted the error in your thinking. That statement is about as accurate as stating that a Scharnhorst should ONLY use torpedoes and ignore its guns entirely. You are simply wrong.

How would that affect British Cruisers? You do realise that ships ARE blind in smoke without someone else to spot for them? So if you are proposing that ships in smoke cannot follow the standard detection model then you are suggesting a rework of the whole detection model. Why limit it to smoke? Why should ships behind islands be able to see ships they have no LoS on? Why should a BB sitting at the back of the map be able to see, well, anything? You didn't think this through, did you?

Using the figures you have provided I can see a wholly different story being told. What you have, I believe deliberately disingenuously, failed to acknowledge is that even though though the absolute number of DD games has increased so has the total number of games played. To analyse this statistically we therefore have to look at the proportion rather than absolute figure. Analysed properly your figures show instead that: Games played in DDs dropped from 21.46% to 17.62% Games played in BBs dropped from 49.86% to 39.01% Games played in CAs increased from 28.67% to 43.37% There are a whole variety of possible reasons why these numbers changed the way they did. To state, therefore, that they show that DD players have not been discouraged by the recent changes is not a statement that can be accurately made using the figures you have provided. But you knew that, you just hoped nobody would notice.

Aye, as with so many things WG do, it has it's flaws but I guess it's the best we have at present. This is largely why I voted yes to the initial proposition. Sure, toxic people will be toxic but that sort of stuff just washes over me these days. People are toxic all over the internet and I just ignore them and go about my day. I wouldn't be interested in talking with those sorts of people anyway. Let's face it, the same is true of this very forum and I tend, for the most part, to just ignore those posters. On the other hand there are a lot of pleasant people here too and those are the ones I choose to engage with, as a rule. On the subject of toxicity I am a firm believer in the idea that offence cannot be given, it can only be taken and I choose not to take offence at much. My "nickname" in the clan I am is C*ntyMcC*ntface. I don't let it bother me, it's a term of endearment* *Or so I hope.

Not ideal but slightly better than the search tool is to right click the player in the post battle screen - add to contacts - open contacts - right click - send message. Still quite long-winded but less annoying than the search function which throws a fit more often than not in my experience.

Had that happen to me in a DD. Went in for the kill on a CV, he dropped me with his torp bombers, I dodged and the torps hit him instead. I was, like, "OK, that happened. Thanks for that."

Sure, why not? I've been messaged after a battle quite a few times by players, both friendly and enemy, to compliment me on a game well played and I have done the same myself. In my experience it has been very rare (like count on one hand rare) that I have experienced toxic messages post-game. An after-match chat would be a welcome addition, I feel, there are too few oppourtunities to be nice as things currently stand.

The Kamikaze, Kamikaze R and Fujin are essentially clones of the pre-nerf Minekaze with differing paint jobs.

As a tier 8 ship it is more reasonable to expect the appearance of Halley's Comet to occur more frequently.

So.... how are you enjoying your Scharnhorst?

Maybe to move the radar speshul upgrade...?

While you await a coded response to your quandary may I suggest that you try what we do in our clan? We choose a lowish tier (say 4 or 5) as a start point and just work our way up the tiers until we reach 10 and then repeat. It saves us no end of time that would otherwise be spent saying... "You choose." "No, you choose" "It must be your choice" "I'm not bothered, you choose" "I chose last, someone else can choose" "I don't choose." "For phuq sake SOMEBODY choose"

His captains weren't retrained for their ships, as they should have been, following the split.

8km torps, great guns, blistering speed. Can be played like a "mini-Khaba". You will probably need quite a high-skilled captain to get the best from her though as her turrets are a tad slow on the turn so she will need Expert Marksman and for survivability you will want AFT for the additional gun range. At extreme range you are a lot harder to hit at speed than at the ranges you will get without AFT.

Anshan has standard torps. She is a much better ship than I ever anticipated her to be, although I do consider myself to be a fairly competent DD player so that may account for some of my success in her. Don't have the Blyska so cannot comment there.

Scharnhorst - I've said it before and I'll say it again, that ship is as much fun as you can have with your pants on.