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Jest Albany, jest łapka. Dianie bardzo daleko do Albany. Przez ten ogromny i zupełnie zbędny zasięg, nie możesz popatrzeć swojemu wrogowi w oczy jak go zatapiasz. Co nagminnie robię na Albany owinięty flagą konfederatów, z czarnoskórym służącym grającym na banjo muzykę rodem z Alabamy/Albany

As for the long post, I'll have to chew through it, but I think it is a good description of the role of CA, but some of it is much more difficult to do in USN /GE than in IJN. Maybe try some higher USN ships to see my point?

Well, I have to believe you as I didn't play Hipper and higher. I played Atago and Zao, and they seemed to be extremely efficient with shell ballistics - it was very easy to hit with those guns, even on very long ranges. So if that's true, then it's good. Mogami with 155 should have worse shells ballistics as it cover the USN ground - good RoF. Maybe in IJN, cause it god damn doesn't matter in USN. Turning radius is balanced with worse rudder shift time, which is more or less the same. But it actually is worse for avoiding shells. It's better for avoiding torps, when you want to make a full turn. When you just dodge shells it's more efficient to have faster rudder shift. So I disagree here, at least from Atago perspective. Also, maybe to add something. Des Moines is a fine ship. It has it's issues, and it's hard to play him well. But I think it is capable to do most of the stuff I want him to do. But only because he got so big RoF. I think, that NO and Baltimore should receive a major boost to RoF (2 - 3 sec each) that would bring them more in line with other CA's and also help with feeling of progress etc.

I disagree in some of those points: From what I played, IJN are the best here. KM have this high arc which IJN doesn't have. Same here, would place IJN and KM before USN. Armour model maybe favours the USN, but it doesn't have any effect in game - if you are broadsideed, you will be citadeled by equal tiered CA, if you are angled, you will not be citadeled. And it's regarding all nations. But, the issue here is not with fighting CA vs CA, but CA vs BB. In which all CA are equall - they doesn't stand a chance to bounce. I would gladly forfit stealth shooting from USN CA in favour of greater survi. That would be fun and more in line with what I had in mind. Some of the things stayed as it is already, cause it's a good solution in my opinion. HE for IJN, AP for GE, shell ballistics for IJN and so on. So some of mentioned by me things need to more emphasied (USN armour, IJN great guns characteristics.

Now, I think CA need some love, to more define their role. I think that guns and durability are the key here. I would drop the rock - paper - scissor philosophy all together. CA shouldn't be a super hard counter to DD, as BB shouldn't be a super hard counter to CA. It's wrong game design - you limit the "fun" part. What if super hard DD counter CA would end in the game with only 2 DD's and 2 CA's rest BB? Game should promote teamwork, but should balance it around strenghts and weaknesses of certain class, instead of countering, so each ship can fight back, and come on top if it's skilled (and in a reasonable amount of time). Back on topic though: My opinions - take with a grain of salt. 1. Guns: USN should have the best RoF, with mediocre AP and HE dmg, along with mediocre shells ballistic. Range should oscillate around 18 km. New Orleans, Baltimore should receive a major RoF buff, 10 sec for NO with a small buff to dmg, and 8 - 9 sec for Baltimore. Des should receive a small buff to shell ballistics. This should be the minigun of WoWs. IJN should have RoF at it's current levels, improved shell ballistics and great HE dmg vs poor AP dmg (but good penetration though). They should be the invisible snipers of the CA world, with torpedoes to seal the deal on close range if it's necessary. Ibuki should receive some love also. This should be the plasma rifle of WoWs GE should have a little less RoF, but even more devastating AP shells, with a bit improved ballistics, with HE shells staying at the current lvl. This should be the sniper rifle - if it penetrates it hurts. If not it still hurts, but a lot less. 2. Durability: Regarding all CA's - I think that 203 mm cruisers should receive the HP replenishment ability. The moment you advance to 203 mm you should feel that you're now playing something different, a proper CA. They should generally be much more durable when angled - no citadels from hangars for floatpanes. USN should be the most durable of all CA's, with mediocre speed, but good turning speed and rudder values for a CA. They should be the brawlers of the CA world. Slower, more cumbersome, but really good armour and really good RoF. The torpedo protection should stay at it's current level (very poor). IJN should be the most durable while on long range engagement, but become squishy when reaching close combat. You snipe and snipe, but when you get caught on close ranges you are at big disadvantage. GE should be in the center of the durability. But with the biggest HP pool of all CA's. And the best hydroacustic search. That's just some food for thought, I might be biased, but it looks logical for me. I focused mainly on their fighting capabilities. All this can be easily implemented in the game, without a heavy modifications to the game itself. What you think?

Ok, I will try to elaborate. Everything I've written below is focusing on tier VIII+ games. CA's are right now "undecided". Are we a support class? Or are we a DPS class? Do we focus on providing AA cover and small amount of DPS, or the other way around. Can we fight with BB's as equals (just different opponent), or are we being easily countered by them? And who counters BB's? And who counter DD's? There are a lot of questions like that, that in many ways regards high tier CA gameplay. There is a myth, that this game still resolves around rock - paper - scissor schematic - it doesn't. CA are not countering DD in any way, DD's doesn't counter BB's in any way. BB can "counter" DD's the same way CA does. So, what can a CA do in high tier games? 1. Provide AA cover: This is a very problematic task. First of all, with lack of CV's in high tier games, whole point of it is moot. Assuming there are CV's, what's the point of it, when BB's have much better AA then CA? The only difference is AA Defensive Fire skill on CA. Which is usefull, but not powerfull enough to compensate shortcomings in other departaments. And there of course is the problematic gameplay of AA cover - you are doing nothing special. No rewarding "aiming", no real fight. You provide cover by just being at the right spot and pressing one key when the moment is right. a) high tier US DD also can do the same - it's not that effective, but it's still an option. 2. Provide DD hunting tasks. With lack of long range spot from CV's, you can't really do it, since you can't see the DD's. Unless a DD skipper make a grave mistake and/or is spotted by a friendly DD or even CA, you won't be able to use your guns to shoot the bastard. Both RU and US DD's do it much better = they have better camo values, faster turret traverse, torpedoes, bigger RoF - modules can be destroyed quicker. While still being a very small, citadelless, fast targets hard to hit. 3. Provide screen for BB's. Again, without CV's you can't spot DD's before you, but they can spot you. Which means that you will be focused by opponent BB's and CA's, without possibility to fulfill your task. The worst case scnario is of course getting sunk. The most propable is that you will get 2 citadels and you will need to run behind your BB's until you are no longer spotted, which again leaves your task unfinished. Best scenario is that you will spot a DD, but then he just pops smoke and leave you without target. You can again do that better with DD's. 4. Fighting off CA's. BB's do it better. But it's actually a role CA can do pretty well and it's fun. Problem is, it's rarely the case - CA are scared of engaging and are covering behind BB's, which leaves you to fight BB's, where you are at disavantage. RU DD's can do it almost as good, while still being able to provide more utility to team. 5. Finishing BB's. This is my major problem with BB's. The whole "finish him" topic is most irritating for me in CA gameplay. I always think of CA's to a similar role that med's i WoT had. You know, scouting, flanking, ganking and finishing wounded opponents. Let's say, some of the stuff I mentioned is possible - but finishing wounded BB? If I encounter Yamato drifting on 20k HP, I'm not 100% sure if I will be able to sink him. I don't know if I will win this encounter at all. Despite Des Moines having a very good RoF, I need 10 salvoes to sink him (sometimes less, depending on angle, range etc.), unless he have a HP regen. So it's a minute of shooting, so it's 2 salvoes from said BB, when only 1 nee to connect to sink or gravely damage me. DD can do it better with torpedoes. While I can somewhat dictate the encounter on ranges above 16 km, it's always a runaway. I can never push a BB away.

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Roon recently surprised me in Des - he almost took me down in two salvoes from 16 km. Sure, it was propably some RNG blessing, but it looks very capable. Sha,e I'm stuck at Yorck right now.

Nie no, na DD coś tam o tych torpach jest, ale ja głównie patrzę pod kątem CA i tu jakoś szału nie ma. Dlatego dla mnie to kwestia preferencji akurat na II poziomie.

Well, I do. Konigsberg is great if not OP. Dresden is great, Kohlberg is decent, Karlsruhe is trash, Nurnberg is decent, Yorck is terribad, Admiral is great, Roon is very good, and Hindenburg is decent. Who cares about XP? Average dmg and winrate is all that matters. And in both of those departaments GE CA are doing pretty well. Konig is almost as OP as Murmańsk. Nurnberg doing only a bit worse then Cleveland. From tier VIII to X they are still doing better then US, with Hindenburg very very close to Zao. With incoming Zao nerf, Hind can take first place. LoL AA power. You want AA? Take BB, thay are better then full AA dedicated US CA's. Who cares about AA when there are no CV's in game. They excel at: No one cares about it. You can do 300k dmg in Essex and get less XP then 10k DD that was capping bases. Of course they are, along with average dmg. That you don't see a correlation, doesn't mean there is none.

Tier V: NESI vs 210 PzDiv Wolfsrudel Do we have a free win? Cause that's whats written in the game charts.

IFA akurat się czasem przydaje. Ja myślę że to kwestia preferencji, perki z drugiego poziomu wszystkie są beznadziejne.

A nie wiem, ale jakoś niedługo. Skończyłem rankedy, więc się mogę zająć OBSem

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You know mtm, that's some good points. But, why use a CA for it? Everything you want you can have from US and RU DD's while still being a very effective gunboats and torpedospammers? Why use a CA who is much bigger, slower, has a citadel, doesn't have smoke, much bigger spotting range etc. the problem with escorting is not with escorting per se, it's with being instantly focused by enemy BB and CA the moment you got spotted. And with all those scout planes and fighters + invisible DD's - it's pretty easy to get spotted. And then it's just ka boom and free exp for opponent.

ain't it a better way to have a discussion, even if we don't share each others points of view?

So you took the least important stuff and say they are bad? Amazing.

Full HP Yamato, with repair and HP replenish? It might take 10 - 11 minutes, depending on range. I actually must take a test to check it out, as soon as I finish rankeds

The problem is lying elsewhere. I agree, I can dodge 90% of BB fire from 16 km+. I can shoot from stealth on 16,3 km while in Des. The problem lies in dealing dmg on that range. I can't shoot AP, cause with their arc, they will just plum onto superstructures and do minimal dmg (as opposed to penetrating them with flat arc), and HE on those ranges tend to do small amounts of dmg (1,5 - 3k for half of a salvoe - not much with occasional miss). So that leaves us with starting fires, which is also unreliable and can be a pain to do in more then 1 sector. To sum it up - yes, you can somewhat evade and poke that BB, but takin him down? Thats a lot of time. Like 10 minutes of pounding. And you are in constant danger during those 10 minutes (part of CA fun factor, but still). There lies a problem for me - taking wounded BB takes too long with too much risk. I agree they should have advantage, and going full broadside yolo stuff as in 5.1 was unacceptable, but the kind of fight CA are having right now? It's just, inefficient and boring. Burn burn burn, 2 fires? AP AP AP AP - no fires? Burn burn burn - and on it goes. That said, I can take my own. Hitting almost 90k with Des now, but I still think it's just wrong

I disagree. They lack effective tools to hunt DD on their own, and they lack DPS/Survivability to effectively execute a wounded BB. I can carry games in New Orleans, Atago and Des Moines, but I can do it only because I'm more skilled then my opponents. A equally capable DD or BB player would either sunk me, or disengage from me to find another venture of attack. But that's my opinion based on maining US CA's. It might be different with overall better IJN CA's.

NESI vs Allianz des Phönix 13.12 - 3:0 thank you for games gentleman! Especially a big thank you for waiting for our 7th player!