AnuSuaraj

And I said that you were wrong because [edited] mechanics such as smoke shooting deter BBs from playing more aggressively The thing that you don't seem to understand is that the matchmaking will almost never give you more than five BBs per side. And most of my games these last few weeks have been three or less BBs per side for every game. So BB overpopulation, if it exists, only means that BBs will sit longer in the queue. It has no effect on actual game play. Where from my mocking of some random guy who draws some irrelevant stat into an argument did you eek out a conclusion that I think the DDs only job is to scout and screen? DDs are supposed to COUNTER BBs - by torping them - meaning that they are suppose to use SKILL to predict BB movement and position themselves to launch torpedoes at the best possible angle whilst avoiding detection. The thing is, in the early stages of the game your attempts to counter BBs might be impeded by, you know, enemy DDs, CLs, and planes...so you might want to do some spotting and capping after all. The fact that DDs survive less than BBs in the current meta is perfectly understandable. BBs are built for tanking, you know. In any case, I am ending this debate now. Obviously, you don't agree with my point of view which is fine. What isn't fine, however, is your drawing of illogical conclusions from my openly laid out opinions and arguments. [edited] Edit: OMG! [edited] people are getting torpedoed and shot? I am shocked and startled again. Stop it, please. You do realize that RN CLs also have Radar from Edinburgh on up? You can take it instead of smoke. So go ahead, if WG gave you that option, why not try it out? Surely they wouldn't give you the option to play without smoke if the ship was unplayable that way, would they? So just try it out and get back to me.

I read everything. I just didn't feel like repeating myself again. And also by saying things like VMF DDs rely on their guns (not so much anymore with the line split and buffs) and BBs are RNG infested you actually made my point about smoke shooting being in the game to mask deeper game play issues for which a bigger rework would be needed. DDs primary weapons are torpedoes. They kill things much faster than four to six small caliber guns. The guns are just there for dueling with other DDs and taking down low HP targets, not for HE spam from smoke at a BB 13km away. Stealth firing was removed exactly because it was [edited]. DDs spamming HE from long range when they should be contesting the caps and going in for torpedo strikes. Smoke shooting will be removed in some time too. So just that one thing is making the game campy? Flawed reasoning I would say. Have you played any games this week? If anything, there has been an excess of DDs. No, but it can run hydro during its whole smoke cycle which means it has no viable counter... OMG! So you are saying that super heavily armored ships with tones of HP and repair capabilities actually survive more than tiny, non-armored scouting vessels? I am truly shocked! And startled.

Get close enough for what exactly? To watch their HP melt away while everyone around them sits snug as a bug in his or hers very own smoke cloud? That's another thing with smoke shooting, it discourages BBs from pushing.

The balancing problems are already there, they are just trying to bury them under a sea of overinflated consumables. It's called lazy developing and they do it all the time... Cruiser XY a bit too weak? Let's not do any major systems overhauls or try to rebalance the said cruiser; let's just instead add, I dunno, repair consumable. Cruiser still too weak? Then give it smoke, and radar, and sonar, and forty-five planes flying in widening spirals that may eventually span the entire map. As a skilled player, I think you should recognize something that is utterly skill-less in the current smoke shooting meta. Or maybe you can tell me what's the viable counter to a Belfast in smoke running hydro and radar. Or how much skill it takes to rack up damage and kills in that thing? But yeah, let's keep the status quo. We don't want to lose that surging playerbase of 10-20k people max. In my opinion, you guys are rushing at windmills. It is obvious that smoke-shooting will be reworked at some point. It'll take a while since this is Wargaming we're talking about, but they are clearly aware that smoke is not working as intended. Did you even read what I wrote? I doubt it. And you still have a problem with not being able to shoot from smoke? Defending one of the campiest mechanics while in the same breath saying that BBs are making the game campy? *cough* hypocrite *cough* Yeah, we'll agree to disagree then. You keep thinking that smoke is fine the way it is, and I'll think that everything is fine except for the smoke shooting part.

While I have no intent on wasting a whole chunk of my life on some drawn out debate with a person that repeatedly fails to grasp what is being said due to his irrational fear of some naughty BB (over)population stealing his DD smoke, I will make one last attempt at making my point clear to you. Firstly, I'm not saying that smoke should be removed from DDs or that it should be made perfectly realistic i.e. make the DD more visible as the smoke is being laid, or allow smoke puffs to be shifted or displaced by random wind currents etc... I am perfectly fine with the defensive qualities of smoke as it is currently represented in the game, meaning a DD can smoke itself up when under duress or just lay down a defensive screen for its allies so that they can shoot over the said smoke with the reduced chance of getting spotted. But here's the main crux of the entire smoke issue: THE PROBLEM WITH THE CURRENT SMOKE META LIES IN THE ABILITY TO FIRE UNDETECTED FROM SMOKE RATHER THAN IN THE SMOKE ITSELF. In this one regard, it is my opinion that the game should emulate real life and that smoke should dissipate under the shock waves of rapid gun fire. It's kind of a paradox, but the fact remains that smoke from which one can act offensively toward enemy ships and shoot undetected makes the game more static and campy by definition. Smoke is static, therefore the smoke shooter has to be static too, and this is exactly why the ability to shoot from smoke rather than smoke as a consumable is the problem. A DD without the capability to shoot from smoke is going to be at the front of the pack, laying down defensive screens for allies so that that poor sob of a BB/CL who is being continually fired upon can disengage, repair and regain HP, so in this situation you will have tactical depth and teamplay, and the DD in question will be encouraging his team to play aggressively by shielding them from enemy fire, whereas in a situation where you have a DD with the capability to shoot from smoke, the said DD is just going to be using his team mates as meat shields so that he can spam HE shells from relative safety at anything in gun range. And while we can say that the smarter DD players will still be using their smoke as it was meant to be used, we can also say that most players in this game are not really that smart and that because of this, the game mechanics should encourage those same players to get smarter rather than to indulge them in their ignorance. Z-23 is a perfect example. It is a DD with lots of utilities. You can screen for your allies not only by laying smoke and spotting, but also by using sonar to detect incoming torpedoes or to flush enemy DDs out of their smoke screens, and yet most players use the Z-23 as a smoke shooter because it has big guns and sonar to fend off smoke combing. They use their sonar not to spot torpedoes for their team but as an early warning system for potential torpedo strikes at their camping position. Even I have done this from time to time, since the 150mm guns are quite punishing to broadsiding cruisers. There is very little skill involved. You need one spotter, and active hydro in case the cruiser torps your smoke. All the rest is point and click. Fighting for caps and screening for your advancing team mates is much harder to do, so why not just rake up damage and kills by using all your utilities for yourself. You can disagree with me if you want to but it is still my opinion that the ability to shoot from smoke does nothing to benefit the game, especially in terms of team play. And if you really think that it's not broken than just go watch a WoWS tournament and then come back to me and explain how fourteen ships sitting is smoke for twenty minutes is "fun and engaging". Again, I have to emphasise: the smoke is not the problem, the ability to shoot from smoke is. So keep the smoke, and just make every smoke bubble dissipate after someone fires within it. Oh wait, did I just ruin that whole one-trick-pony line of RN CLs? Oh well, I guess that the devs are going to have to do some real work now and find a way to make those floating citadels viable without relying on a cyclical consumable to just mend imbalance for them. #no-more-lazy-developing-for-you

Please read more carefully. I never said: "It has to be exactly like real life..." What I actually said was that while the game does not have to fully portray real life, it does have to work in a way that makes sense. If ships in this game floated on a sea of jelly beans and fired rose petals, you probably wouldn't play at all, would you? Proper immersion into any gaming experience can only be achieved when everything at least seemingly looks and feels like the real thing. A bunch of ships sitting cloaked in smoke and generating endless streams of tracer fire breaks my immersion. And it sucks game play wise as well since there is little to no skill involved in that particular process, especially if one is sitting pretty in his Belfast with both Radar and Sonar active. You can push on smoke campers if you have the right ships and support? Mostly not, since they will likely have the right ships and support too, and because, generally, people like to turn away from smoke screens rather than to turn into them. Torpedo combing of smoke can work if the ship in the smoke is without hydro...but then again, launching a bunch of torpedoes into a wad of smoke and hoping for a hit is not very fun or engaging either. Also, I don't see what your claims of alleged "overpopulation of BBs" has to do with the smoke meta or anything that I've said. And no, I don't have to wait for the CV rework to know beyond any shred of a doubt that the current smoke mechanic in the game is utterly ridiculous and does nothing to contribute to the general fun level of the game. Again, where did I say that smoke is broken? What I actually said is that the way that smoke works in the game is silly, illogical, and makes WoWS a lesser game overall. Why are RN CLs imbalanced because they need smoke? Because smoke is a consumable, meaning it is a thing that is merely suppose to give a ship the added capability to do a certain thing at a certain time, and is, therefore, definitely not suppose to be the ship's one defining characteristic. RN CLs ORIGINALLY also had HE shells but when further testing revealed that a ship with a lot of small caliber guns (like three times what an HE spamming DD has) sits in smoke and runs hydro utterly breaks the game, the decision was made to just get rid of the HE shells. So now you have a entire ship line being warped and maimed to fit within this one useless and skill-less mechanic which is a mere CONSUMABLE... That's the part that people forget - that smoke is just a consumable, like a repair kit in world of tanks. It should be just a situational prop and not a meta altering mechanic. You really resent BBs for some reason, which kind of makes you nonobjective. DDs do not rely on RNG. If anything BBs are the most RNG infested class. DDs rely on stealth, spotting, capping, zone control, and TORPEDOES...lots and lots of torpedoes. There is very little RNG in torpedoes, you know... And this is coming from a DD player who also plays cruisers and BBs.

Honestly, the smoke in this game is total BS for the following reasons: 1. From a historical standpoint it is completely absurd since in real life Destroyers used smoke to conceal other ships by EXPOSING themselves to enemy fire. Also, while ships could fire from behind the smoke screen, shooting inside the smoke would disperse it. 2. From a meta standpoint it makes the game more static and campy 3. It hides deeper balancing problems - just imagine British cruisers or Russian DDs without their smoke... 4. The whole idea of leeching damage by firing from smoke while the rest of your team has to tank, spot, maneuver, push etc... is kind of douchy. And this is coming from a DD player so...smoke as it exists now has to be reworked. Maybe not in the way that the OP suggests but still..something has to be done.

I welcome the removal of stealth firing... But I would welcome the removal of smoke firing even more... Also, I laughed my a*s off when that imbecilic amoeba called SubOctavian actually went so far as to call this game "free2win". And in the same sentence in which he confesses how they like to "preserve" premiums from nerfing. Leningrad, Saipan, Scharnhorst and about a million more overpowered premiums say: "Hello dweeb!"

Ah, missions... That's that thing for which I get rewards even if I pay no attention to it? Yeah, I like that. Although, that over specified mission does sound a bit...over specified. For next weeks mission I propose a random battle with tier 8 DD in which you have to: - go into range of two Bismarcks and dodge their secondary salvoes for no less than forty seconds. - get a double strike, not on those Bismarcks, but on two Flints which MUST be in a division - get radared in smoke, and shot through the steering gear while simultaneously shooting the offending radar boat and damaging its steering gear - do 137 465 damage precisely of which: 50k must been done on a higher tiered battleship, 50k on three different cruisers, 37 465 on three different DDs, plus you must score seven non penetrating hits on the fourth enemy DD while causing ZERO damage. - you must survive the battle - you must win the battle - also, you have to cap all three caps while playing with one hand and using the other hand to phone your boss to ask for a raise - the raise in salary that you do get has to be a 7,35% increase on your yearly nett income - players who own a cat named Montgomery are automatically disqualified Mission reward: SEVEN DRAGON SIGNALS! - plus 10X special new camo that was inspired by the mole on SerB's left a*s cheek.

So... Sub_Octavian said that the reason why IJN DDs do less damage on each tier than all the other ships is because they rely on torpedo damage, which they intentionally made harder by nerfing torpedo range so that people cannot spam torps from long range... Apparently, now you need skill to torpedo ships with IJN DDs and you have to do it from close range. That's the aim of the game now...skilled and risky torpedoing of targets from close range. So...with that in mind... Introducing...USS Black! It has super slow, super low detectability, and extremely long range torpedoes... The Black's torpedoes super long travel time to target makes them more of an area denial tool than a skill based weapon. And, by giving these torpedoes low detectability, the devs made sure there is also very little skill involved in dodging the aforementioned luck based torpedoes. Also Radar, because let's f*#k IJN DDs even more...MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Hint: WG makes money through ship XP to free XP conversion, which is why every new line is power-creeped by a little, or by a lot. Those Soviet DDs were OP, which is why they got nerfed...twice. Also, Moskva and Donskoi are arguably the best high tier cruisers, and the German BB line besides being the newest line is also, according to global stats, the strongest line. All these ships will be slightly readjusted...later, after enough money has been made or after some new (and improved) line is ready to come out. And, of course, each of these lines are preceded by some OP pay2winnium that never gets readjusted. This is slightly immoral but it works.

While I agree that Belfast might never be directly nerfed, it will certainly get indirectly nerfed once the smoke mechanic is duly reworked. I think pretty much everyone and his pet iguana agree on the fact that the smoke meta in WoWS sucks donkey balls...

Researched your stats? No, not really... I just typed in your name into WoT stats, and, frankly, I knew before hand what it would show. Basically, your statistics, which are neither biased nor rigged by Trump's enemies, definitely prove that you have neither the brain power nor the motor skills that are necessary to be good in video games. So I suggest that you now switch to Mario Carting. You can play that with your Styrofoam girlfriend too and then blame her for losing to that big crocodile on a moped. Yes, I rerolled my three years old, Alpha tester in WoWS, Beta tester in WoWP, and 20k battles in WoT account. Actually, I'm not the one that rerolled...My girlfriend did that when I was sleeping. And yes, I've never played Belfast which, in retrospect, is a good thing since I never ended up like a biased a-hole whose skills slowly degrade in a big mess of smoke and He shells. I like high risk, high reward ships, you know those OP DDs like the Minekaze with which you suck balls. What's that famous Robert Downey Jr. line: "Never go full retard..." Yeah, words to live by Dominico old pal, words to live by...

Yes, I enjoyed bashing people in the Minekaze back when it was overpowered... The difference between you and me still exists though and it is in: 1. the fact that I still did well with all my other DDs 2. that I openly admitted that the Minekaze was OP and I even opened threads asking that its torpedoes be removed or nerfed... And here's you: http://www.wotstats.org/stats/eu/dominico/ A World of Tanks potato that had just discovered the miracle that is the Belfast i.e. something with which you can shoot without being shot back, and thus do damage and even occasionally win battles...but guess what? Since your WR is 57% and the global WR is 60% that means that you are still a below average player. So you still suck. And your Belfast will be nerfed. And the smoke meta will be changed completely because it is silly. So enjoy your almost averageness while it lasts...dweeb.

This is funny. I've seen this happen in WoT. You have one average potato player that finds himself an OP vehicle/ship to exploit, and this one broken vehicle actually manages to convince him that he's a decent player. So of course when he sees others calling for a nerf he will always scream: "Noo! That's the only ship with which I am not utterly useless." His key vehicle is Belfast guys. So you're wasting time with this Dominico troll. Besides pay2winnium ships do not get nerfed in this pay2win game. But yeah, how these stat padding dweebs actually start to believe their own BS is beyond me. Everyone with half a brain can see that Belfast is OP to the point of broken, and global stats PROVE IT BEYOND A SHRED OF A DOUBT. 60% global WR is insane.

Every Russian DD has 5-6 guns instead of 12 (and they're 130mm-s, not 152mm -s, so that's more than twice the DPM on Belfast) and the DD cannot protect itself in smoke with radar and sonar. So, like I said, Belfast is utterly broken. The global stats prove the same.

Jesus. Just to stop the (false) innuendo, I'll say that the new armament will be AP bombs, and that they're coming with the carrier rework. There. Now stop with the missile BS already.

What the hell? How do you cause flooding with a Moskva?! I am confused.

After ascertaining that cruisers which shoot HE from smoke break the game in ways unseen, Wargaming has decided to remove HE shells from the regular British cruisers... Although, for a nominal fee, anyone may now buy the two pay2winnium ships that shoot HE from smoke! Introducing the Belfast and the Kutuzov...these ships are not broken...like totally.

First, you'll notice my title of choice: Battleships! I wrote it with an exclamation, as the word Battleships should always be shouted out as to emulate the natural tendency of every living human being to try to verbally boost such a masterfully constructed ship almost to the status of an inanimate deity. How could one not elevate his voice upon seeing such a monstrosity of a floating fortress, cutting the waves at thirty knots or more? I ask of you dear Forumite, nay, I dare you, to visit any battleship or naval museum that is nearest to you and then to try and speak out a battleship name through a whisper… You will never be able to do such a thing. You will not. Bismarck! Iowa! These names were made to be shouted out into the howling wind. Rodney! Ok, well, that last one sounds like I’m calling out for my drunken cousin as to prevent him from merging with the nearest wall, or, even more tragically, with my wife, but still, you catch my drift. Anyhow, as you can imagine I am fairly new to the Forum, although I do consider myself to be an experienced player in the game itself after rumbling through more than 5 professional bouts in total with my Kawachi. Or should I say Kawachi! Yes. That’s better. Now where was I? Right. Dear Forumites, the reason why I am just now visiting the Forum is exactly because of my last battle with my Kawachi! in which I was duly excited to witness for the first time a carrier vessel called Hosho! You’ll notice that I also used the exclamation mark on the end of the carrier’s name, although this time not to emphasize the said ship’s gloriousness, but to insinuate the deviousness with which this vessel operates. Try to imagine Seinfeld screaming out a ‘Newman!’ every time that you see an exclamation of a carrier, or, if you are not a Seinfeld fan, than just imagine yourself at your very lowest, and on your knees, shouting out the name of your greatest nemesis. First I was bombed by dive bombers. And then I was torpedoed by torpedo bombers. And then I was torpedoed again by this invisible destroyer that was ironically called Kamikaze. I say ironically, because rather than killing itself by ramming my side, this vessel instead opted to make me want to kill myself by way of electrocution through the scrotum, as it continued to stealthily torpedo my Kawachi! into near oblivion! Ha! I tittered on oblivion but never fell. I cleverly chose to press R and, instantly, all the flooding and the fires ceased. And then, through a sheer act of genius I chose to press T and to heal some of the inflicted damage. Ha! You cannot sink the Kawachi! You fools! Or so I mentally boasted at the time. A cruiser then emerged on my port side. A single cruiser! You’ll notice the exclamation mark again. Here it exists to express the absurdity of the situation. I mean, a single cruiser now sailed toward me, with its feeble guns flashing, intent on sinking my Kawachi! MY KAWACHI! The fool, I muttered into my chin as shrugged off his pathetic cruiser shells and began to fixate my divine guns upon the feeble minded dweeb. But then, suddenly, upon receiving one feeble shell graze upon my bow, a fire erupted. And it was a fire that I could not quench since my damage party team was apparently recharging. How does that work exactly? Do these individuals who specialize in fighting fires and suspending flooding stop over at the mess for some tea and biscuits? Absurd, I say! But never mind. Let me just sink this cruiser now. I fired. My shells flew, rather erratically, toward the intended target and, once only SOME of them landed on the hull of this pathetic little cruiser, the hits FAILED to sink him! Absurd! I mean, do the developers of this game really want me to believe that a shell that went THROUGH an entire ship has also failed to sink the said ship. I mean, I’m not a nautical engineer by trade, but I do know that a big hole in the ship’s hull should disturb that buoyancy thing a little bit, no? Besides, I also know how big the guns on my Kawachi are. I’ve duly measured them with my wanting gaze while tenderly rubbing my…ehrrm…NEVER MIND! The guns on my Kawachi are indeed big, is what I’m saying, so I really don’t understand how the developers of this game can justify the concept of any ship surviving a single battleship barrage. I believe that a game in which my Kawachi could just smite any adversary with a single gun salvo would be much closer to not just mine, but to everyone else’s taste as well. Not only that, but it would be more historically accurate. I know these absurd things never happened in real life. I mean, I watch those WWII documentaries on Nat Geo all the time, and I’ve never once seen a cruiser get hit by a battleship and live to tell the tale. In fact, I’ve never seen a battleship hit anything ever, which proves that all who got fired upon must have been promptly sunk. I mean, the alternative was that the battleships were scarcely used in actual combat post that whole Jutland thing, which I just can’t buy. And why would you not want to deploy such masterful ships as much as possible. I mean, sure, those annoying Wright brothers did complicate things a bit, but, come on, sinking a battleship with a plane is not fair. It’s cheating actually. It’s like today when one of those drones lobs a Hellfire missile at some unsuspecting ground target. That’s just…totally unfair. It’s really not fair. And I don’t understand why the developers would ever implement such copious amounts of unfairness into their game. Is that how they want to represent themselves, as people who are unfairly and unjustly inclined? Anyhow, as you’ve probably assumed by now, my Kawachi had died from that single cruiser induced fire in my official fifth battle ever, and the frustration was so great that I’m now actually thinking about quitting the game. This would hurt me personally quite a lot, since I’ve already invested so much of my time into the game and into my Kawachi, and since I really don’t want to be labeled a quitter. So I am hoping that the developers are going to do something after this post in terms of making their game better and fairer. And that means no planes, no torpedoes, more damage repair teams, and all the inferior ships can only die to my Kawachi! after I land the very first hit. Because such a game would be fair and totally worth my time. Respectfully, Anu Suaraj Proud Kawachi! owner. P.S. I also wrote a short poem on the subject entitled QQ. Thank you... QQ Behold how my Kawachi steams ahead strong, compensating for any sailor's inadequate...mhm...drinking song, It's so huge and so long, DEAR GOD, THIS KAWACHI IS WHERE I BELONG! But what is tis' that my eyes now behold, this red icon that's floating steadily along. Through mid air it glides, it looks really wrong, two torpedoes aligned, the middle one sticks out a bit headlong, My AA guns blazing away mightily, but I cannot smite this unfair adversary. He zips right and left, and while I'm thinking what the hell? Torpedoes plop down and hit me harder than a Yamato shell, and with my Kawachi erased there's nothing left to do, it's time to open a thread, and to rightfully QQ.

Yes, let's report this skilled cruiser player. I mean, how can you be good...in a cruiser? That's like winning a drag race...on a moped.

It's a typo. I actually wanted to write zis' in Allo Allo kind of style... Nice poetics...

Indeed it was. And thank you kind sir.

Some of us didn't say it would break the game but merely make it feel shallower and dumber. And that it will also open the door for other crutch mechanics to be introduced that will eventually break the game. And in that we were not wrong. So your argument for keeping this skill in the game is: "...it is of no use whatsoever to anyone with half a brain and there are much better skills to take..." ?? If it is not useful and there are much better skills around, then why should we keep it? What does the RL skill add in terms of tactics or depth of game play? And you're calling other people dummies? Next time try to do that thinking thing prior to posting.

I am going to assume that calling Fiji "not actually bad" is just potato code for "incredibly strong, tittering on overpowered cruiser". As for Edinburgh, Neptune and Minotaur, those are statwise among the best cruisers in the game at the moment. So for the last time: The smoke is not inconsistent. You slow down to 12 knots and it envelops you every time. The size of the smoke (puff, puff and a half, two puffs or whatever) is intentionally made smaller than on DDs for obvious reasons. As for people incessantly whining about RN cruiser smoke: you are all free to swap that smoke for surveillance radar and try to play you RN CLs like actual cruisers - ones that can actually be hit back. The smoke meta in this game is utter rubbish anyway and will be removed soon or later, which means that you might as well start practising actual cruiser game play now. Bye.