Liquiel

Yes, but it should be quite obvious how to avoid it if they ever suffer from that. I have played the tests and the only time I felt people were acting as exp pinatas was when I used a CV with carpet bombers... and how to avoid to be carpet-bombed again should be easy to understand, even for a newbie.

What's the problem...? You realize that the rewards you get from dealing 5000 damage to a 6000HP target are much higher than for 5000 damage to a 30000 HP target, right?

Yep it isn't too easy there. For cruisers you want to dive, go up close to them , torp them, give a ping if necessary(its better if you don't need to...) and then dive fast. Double ping lock against those is something you don't get anyways and if you do they can evade it. DD's are usually so fast that you can only hit them when they want to get close and drop depth charges. If you time it right you may sink them or give them, at least, high damage in return(by going from submerged fully to periscope at the right time). If you do that or deep dive while turning to avoid some of the depth charges... that depends on allied support and DD health. Not much support and high DD health? Do it yourself and try to torp them. Low health and high allied support? Probably better not to go up but down instead.

I was the BB killing subs, not the other way around. Yes, as BB hunting subs alone(wasn't doing that, though) isn't really that smart unless you hunt a sub on low oxygen support. But if you ever go periscope from close range you will be spotted. If you fire from afar without ping then the damage isn't that bad and the BB will simply move away. You CANT hunt anything in a sub unless you can corner it, or chase it towards a corner, except other subs. Not a DD, not a CV, and not a BB. They are too fast. And if you are fully submerged, you can't see anyone except people 2 km away. It's easy to evade someone like that. If you are periscoped you are a turtle without any noticable speed. If you are on the surface, you are ... in danger. Subs can't do much alone, even against BB's. Which means that sub vs bb at the end mainly depends on the state of the game. If the sub team is many points ahead, the BB team loses against subs with more than one brain cell unless the sub is low on oxygen, the BB high on health and both close together. If the BB team is many points ahead, then the sub team will likely lose against any decent BB. Anything in between depends on the health of the BB, the current cap situation and the points... and the current positioning. Subs are slow. So slow that even BB's can run away from them(in combat with others, however, they might have to turn their citadel towards your allies...) BTW: DD's aren't that effective against subs as long as they have support by other allies.

ahem. When submerged fully, your detection range is 2 km.

Did you play on the test server? As BB? I have. It isn't remotely easy to kill a BB if you are in a lone sub - unless that BB is someone called a tomato. Or a bot... The sub is effective if their torps force the BB to turn the citadel towards their enemies, or hit their enemy. 1v1 against BB's is not a good idea - BB's HE shells can do nasty damage, sometimes even kill a full health sub. Secondaries also do good damage. But if you aren't close enough you can't hit... CV? Effective against subs? Only against lone subs with low oxygen supply. And well, the japanese carriers aren't good vs subs at all. If your DD's die quickly then no, your surface ships aren't monumentally screwed. If any, subs are likely less powerful, not more powerful, than any other class.

After doing some more sub testing: The amount of "oxygen" is a bit too much- could be nerfed by 10-15%, and exhausting the supply even multiple times does not seem to have any penalties(I'd say that should definitely happen).

General recommendations to WG: -Keep testing, looks promising. Subs cannot kill them all but aren't useless,and they do not have a bad skill ceiling. -A round of testing without aircraft carriers is highly recommended. Gameplay will be likely different. -Rounds with less bots would be good. Maybe the next round of testers should only unlock subs after fighting with something else for a longer time, or not at all? There are too many testers testing subs by playing subs. -The balance between carriers is off - british carriers are good against subs(1-flight kill with carpet bombs), US carriers are ok against subs, carriers from Japan - due to AP bombs and bad rockets - are bad against subs. Please have a look on possible solutions. Strategy: I have observed the following strategies and failures: Destroyers: Instead of killing a periscope sub with HE you directly charge at it to kill it with depth cha... BOOM!(you get killed by sub torps). When the sub is deeply submerged, go hunt it with depth charges(if you can afford it, of course). When it's on periscope, approach at your own peril(don't forget rear torpedoes). I have seen this mistake far too many times. Subs: Don't go too far away from your allies, this protects you from being found, chased and killed by destroyers or carriers(this is a reason why a round without carriers is recommended). And you can save oxygen supply by surfacing amongst your allies. You have enough oxygen. That doesn't mean you can waste it. Keep an eye on the supply. Go to periscope depth at the right moment when a DD is nearby and you might be able to kill it with torps from close range. Big ships can ram you at periscope depth. Don't get rammed by BB's. They hardly suffer any damage and you... sink. Avoid carpet bombers, even at periscope. When surfaced, they will kill you in one go. When in periscope, they might. But you'll have hardly any HP left if you survive. Avoid getting spot by BB's or anything else with secondaries from close range. If you are, dive down.. BB's: You can run away from subs. If it's just you and a sub and your team will win when time ends... just run. Avoid getting close to subs. They can eat lots of your HP. Cruisers: You might be able to run away from torps. But not if they are fired from very close range. Just don't get careless and aim at these subs. Don't chase a sub. That's not your job. Carriers: If you aren't playing a japanese carrier: You can kill it quickly with the correct aircraft if it isn't submerged. All carriers: Subs have no AA. A sub far away from support begs for a fighter squadron being dropped at their location. After all, their supply isn't endless... General advice on aiming: If you are aiming at a periscope sub, don't aim at the sub. Aim at the place it would be if it weren't submerged(HE only, of course. With AP, don't bother. If you see a ping from far away, turn away at once unless this is reckless.

Yes, but subs are not fast by themselves and BB's are usually not right in front of the action early. Plus, after the first hit you should, as BB, probably turn away from that sub. Don't forget that BB's also can take out other ships with two salvos of AP if they hit the citadel, so..... yeah... However, sub vs sub combat should definitely be possible, especially because everything else would cause problems if the last two alive people are in subs, for example. And if DD's are turning out to be overextended too much and subs are turning out to be far too powerful a measure could be giving cruisers depth charges.

I wonder why people are so negative about subs not being hunted. Even if it does happen, sub torps can be evaded by ships with a sufficient combination of player skills, ship speed and ship size(measured against, of course, the skill of the sub driver). Of course, if you are driving a large, slow BB then no amount of your skill is enough to evade all sub torps fired by a competent sub driver, but that's how it should be... One tester also said that in the first round the bots in the teams did NOT hunt subs, so... it seems to be quite close to randoms sometimes, probably.

Considering that BB's are currently the most powerful class them not being able to avoid torpedoes isn't bad.

Well, I often see people still travelling alone instead of close together, even in non-domination games... and they expect to not get punished by CV? Look, there is suitable counterplay against CV's. And you know what... it's also the best strategy in all games, domination or not.. This tactic is effective even without CV's. Nothing beats a big group of ships except another big group of ships aiming better - or DD long range torps.

The first difference I can spot is that the speed of subs is not supposed to be 70-80 knots at all. Much slower. This is a massive difference because it takes more time for them being effective on the battlefield. The second difference is that you can hit subs with main armaments, at least HE and possibly AP based on feedback, as long as they are not fully submerged(no idea on secondaries). They need to get to surface at some point if they are trying to flee and then they will be able to be killed very very fast because they are not as mobile as DD's and can't evade well(but have less HP than them). That's the third difference(You cannot reliably re-stock oxygen, or battery power, or whatever you call it, in periscope mode(consumables aside), and periscope mode is SLOW.). The follow the circles minigame isn't the only possible elimination method. If there's CV's then they will be naturally weak against a sub breaching defenses but at the same time flyers might be able to detect these subs better...

I play CV's. I have no idea about if tier X CV's are balanced. Tier IV CV's need a small nerf, or AA in these tiers needs a small buff. That's it.

I play Langley, Ranger, and Lexington. Lexington is fine. Its squadrons will get hit and will lose planes, but it still can hit well if you attack the targets with the correct planes(and your teammates don't go down like flies). Ranger is fine. It's damage potential isn't higher than the Langley, especially with better AA in these tiers. Langley is too strong. AA at these tiers, especially tier III which might not even HAVE AA, is too weak and it can attack more than once per flight easily. It needs a nerf.