Pappus

While I start getting the hang of the midway I feel there is still a lot more possible. Once I touch the shokaku it pretty much breaks apart so I was wondering if somebody knows specifically a CV main that you can watch that is very good so I can learn.

I want to prematurely add something to this when I glimpsed over the examples for dmg in several AA bubbles. It seemed to be a reduction by percent and not in all cases would that automatically be better than having a single ship fire. There should be cases where trying to help with your AA defense will make the overall damage lower especially if you consider that the damage in medium/short range might also be decreased because some DD is giving his possibly weak AA support from 6km away. I haven't had time to put the pencil to this yet though so it might be wrong.

From my experience what happens is that one the fighter has aggro and you make your drop afterwards he only has aggro on those that detached. If they are destroyed by AA or if they kill one doesnt matter, they despawn afterwards. Another technique is to boost through the edge and have the fighters follow you. They are too slow so they get picked up by friendly AA while giving chase. It takes a bit more time though.

When I play the Saipan and chat I often get chatbanned for 24h by the system. Last sentence that triggered the 24h chat ban by complaint: Saipan is like the highlander - there can only be one. (In a Saipan vs Saipan match after clearing out the enemy) It also doesn't help to contact customer support since they say that they cannot overturn it. This is the same thing - revenge karma - revenge complaining. The system itself is not at fault, it is the people that abuse it your their own petty emotions.

There is no veiled threat. You are as important to me as the bacteria under my shoes. Your inability to understand logic just does yourself another favor. Let me make the sentence even simpler for you: If there is a discrepancy in opinion that cannot be rectified by discussion on any given problem, but a resolution has to be struck it will ultimately end in violence, because that is the ultimate argument that we humans have. It is universally effective unlike logic. Logic as you nicely showcase is neither spoken nor understood by everyone, although that is quite fascinating in itself since the fundamental baseline of logic is that if an argument is sound - regardless of intellect (bar disabilities) - any human if given enough time should come to the very same conclusion. In this given example no resolution has to be struck so obviously no further escalation will happen. Logic is not about emotion, it is about facts and what they eclipse to. Yet although we do all possess the capability to think logically only a tiny fraction of us actually makes use of it. So for your sake I hope you don't end up in too many situations where a resolution needs to happen. Since you already displayed how well you react to sound arguments I can't imagine it going too well for you. If a cruiser attacks with a BB to his side it is bad positioning. See you can take out that attack of the cruiser and have him spotted by an enemy DD. Same thing will happen. I also only played CV here and there the battles I have are over the span of years so until a couple of weeks ago I didn't even own anything but CVs. Now I have z-46, Bismarck, Dallas, Lightning (still grinding the credits for purchase). That is a grind of 4 different lines in the time I upgraded from Lexington to Essex. The reason for that? The current iteration is unenjoyable, because AA is so powerful and omni-present. Saipan is just an insanely good credit farmer so most of my current CV matches are with him.

You bet your behind that if i misplay on my DD and am radared on the cap that I get deleted - and it won't be a CV delivering that instant blow. You bet your behind that if i get spotted or somehow end up broadside against a visible or invisible BB that I will eat that broadside and can be counted lucky if I am still around to receive a second salvo. You bet your behind if i have no clue about the incoming torpedo salvo in my BB that I won't be around for a second and finally You bet your behind that if I make a mistake in my POSITIONING on my CV that I am sent home to the port like all the rest. So the ultimate reason why a CV isn't sent home straight if he misplays is because most of the time he doesn't misplay HIS POSITIONING, but his ATTACK. Or are you telling me now that you are sent back to port if you miss one of your salvos? Unlike the CV though you can make as many mistakes during aiming as you want - your guns won't blow up because of it. Last time I checked I can stay far out on my Bismarck and keep delivering potshots that are off as much as I want. *edited* Edit: BTW the same way a CV can "force" a DM to use DFAA and then kill it with AP bombs can be said about other classes. Just go ahead and rush that position in your BB. Force it out and kill it - you will lose HP to do so which is your resource. For the CV it is his planes. In both cases when it goes to 0 there is no more damage coming from either ship. This is the only argument you really have though right... those AP bombs. I wonder how you would argue if there wouldn't be any AP bombs to delete anything with.

First off you think that a current CV has limitless planes? That forcing you speak of on e.g. T9 or T8 CVs is 1/3 of his torpedo squads right there. Realistically though why would a DM use DFAA against a single torp bomber? Even against a midway with 2 I would think twice about pressing that button, because they can maneuver against torps and will still shoot down sufficient of them. See those torp bombers are T8 at the highest. Only the saipan has T9 ones. So that dreaded AP combo can happen yes, but those are edge cases and not simply something you do. That scenario in your mind means that not only did the DM waste DFAA against torps, but also your friendly CV gives free reign to the enemy or lost the air battle and the DM stays at the front line, because if she moves back e.g. as the torps come then she will not be killed by the AP bombers, because they simply won't leisurely traverse the AA bubbles of other cruisers/bbs. If he does, then that DM will quickly be one of the only victims. And lastly you disqualified yourself, because AA at high tier is quite frankly insanely potent across the board where decent targets are simply rare and far inbetween. You would know that if you did more with CVs than watching and judging them. It is common for your squads to slightly CLIP the edges of AA bubbles and already lose planes, that is before you even see the threat. Not talking about flying up to it and saying hello either. The IJN line I only have on T8, but they will probably do better with better speed and higher tier squadrons, but for U.S. that is simply not the case and probably the reason that the average winrate of the T10 Midway lingers below 50%.

RAMJB already disqualified himself by saying that not even the strongest AA is strong enough. You will not render him happy he is narrow minded and only understands removal. Not that a big part of the game would fly out with it without any good reason. Words are lost on him.

Getting behind an island is not hard to achieve - surely you jest. Neither is pressing the smoke button. Yes it can be done better with skill, but fundamentally it is still creating a situation where the enemy cannot fire back. Ultimately torpedos are the same story. Your counter argument is very funny, because you literally feed straight into mine: You agree that sometimes someone cannot strike back at a specific target, but the next guy can and thus it makes it okay. Now guess what the enemy CV can always be struck by your CV ;) So by that very definition that makes it acceptable by your own admission. So at this point we can already agree on that the un-hitable CV does not exist but furthermore a CV that borderhumps somewhere is about as scary as your BBs guarding the rear line. It isn't optimal. CVs also should get as close to the action as they can - their optimal range is not 30km. There is also more to the counterplay than shooting planes. Having cruisers in good positions (which coincides with generally good positions for them) is a nightmare to the CV and helps your CV a whole lot. You guys make CVs sound like they are dropping you every 30 seconds when in reality most targets in a normal match never interact with the enemy CV in any way, because they simply strike so rarely. Shooting down planes, position, minimizing the damage you take all help tremendously unlike that BB that just shot one of your cruisers broadside out of concealment - to be repeated (hopefully) 30s later.

Not being able to fire back at your target is basically a core design aspect of the game. You can't shoot back at the cruisers hiding behind an island or DDs in smoke and alike. There is also range differences and so forth. CV is no difference to that - except that you can see his shot coming a mile away and appropriately use WASD to drastically diminish its capacity to damage you.

If you are in dire need to instantly control your carrier you can always just press F and are instantly there. Best bet is just launching e.g. bombers first to drop a fighter on your cv, then press f and launch what you want. That way there is nobody sniping your CV. Personally I liked dashing ahead with the rocket plane to place a fighter for my beloved little BB bots and then switch to something else and have an additional fighter where I feel it is needed.

Feedback: 1) Fighter squad should not be a limited consumable. There is limitless enemy planes and AA capability of any given side dwindles over time 2) A bit too tricky to hit anything but BBs with torps if they try to avoid it. 3) Flooding might need to be heavily decreased in chance from the torps since the ability to run multiple on the same ship is high. While initially you might say stack to cruisers, but lategame a BB will simply be food. You can't even help out the friendly BB on the fly, because you would first need to physically fly over to call your fighters. Maybe the fighter should be a click drop in that attaches itself to a ship that you selected after e.g. 25 seconds. That way the enemy CV can't just click on reaction. I also am not certain about bombers... Right now I could take boombers and force a cruiser to press DFAA, then I come back with torps with DFAA on cooldown. Yes it might be hard to hit the cruiser with my torps, but it might force him to give broadside to teamates or leave the protection of an island. Maybe the armament - and I know WG that in your mind only damage exists - should be rockets vs DD Torp vs CL/BB Support squadron that heals, smokes, gives more range, increases dispersion against ships near your. Something like that.

I return periodically and play CV every half a year or year. I know this class since WoWs beta, which is where I fell in love with it. It was pure power against potatoes. Again and again people would turn away and eat half a dozen torpedos more due to it and blame the power of the CV. By now a lot has changed, the hypocrisy surrounding them has not. People will whine about their alpha, while literally every other class is constantly trying to pull the very same cheese against the opposing team. The DD is hoping for a big fat torpedo broadside or clipping other DDs to basically take the other DD out of the game. The cruiser is hoping to lob and endless stream of HE on a BB or LULradar a DD from behind an island to get it vaporized. The BB is constantly looking for those juicy onehits on cruiser broadsides from concealment ( or not ). The CV is looking to vaporize targets just the same, with the difference that his enemy has for the most case be a potatoe. It isn't the CVs alone that are broken beyond recognition, but a lot of things are and I believe it has become way too opressive of a game because of it. Every class has this completely out of whack threat, because that is all WG seems to be able to do. These days you have ludicrous AA power and while yes you can AP drop a worc - I certainly wouldn't dare to try it during her DFAA and even less if she is not island camping. AP bombing someone is kinda LUL of course and the defense you can muster is definitely less compared to torpedo bombers, but still you can do something about being hit fully. T7+ CV is not as fun and powerful as you believe it to be if the enemy team has competent stuff. Two strong AA cruisers that know what they are doing will make your day miserable, because you don't only have to deal with those but by default also with the enemy CV who might be as good, worse or better than you. So this time when I returned I had less fun in the CV than ever before and decided to focus more on the other classes to finally start learning them and it is the same as CV just with faster reload and your shells not randomly dropping out of the sky because another dude pressed a button. The RTS stuff can be improved, but it won't be. WGs only solution to stuff is DMG & Vision - that is the apex of their design philosophy. They could give CVs smoke bombers, buff planes of various forms, but they don't. I will be happy with the CV rework, cause finally I don't have to worry about plane reserves at all anymore and can strike with impunity. I don't have to go into the fighter minigame or constantly move them to maximize their advantage. I will simply be allowed to sit in a plane and deal damage and you will whine just the same, because you haven't learned how to handle CVs yet and you never will. Personally if I don't drive a CV I am always happy if there are CVs, because my knowledge about them always ensures that my CV is being supported and has the upper hand.

Yes nobody says suddenly there will be massive communication, but it could work if one thing is clear: You go away from the pack and there is a CV you are dead.

I was not expecting 5 ships to leave a full hole in the center field there and before I died I was strafebaiting around on that hill on the right trying to figure out why I am strafing for 0 dmg and found out it is the mountain. RIsky positioning is sometimes fatal. Especially unhappy about it myself because I was 2 fightersquads ahead before the mountain strafe happened :( The match after that I positioned aggressively, destroyed ~70 planes and deleted 4 ships. Can't always be one or the other if you take risks though. Let us just leave it at that. Your argumentation becomes funnier by everyturn. First you say that the removal of fighters removes the ability for CVs to interact with one another and it takes half a dozen posts to make you understand that it doesnt and then you claim NAVYFIELD targets a different audience altogether. I dont mean this in a mean way, but I simply envision something else which I either lack the words to explain properly or you the creativity to see aswell. Not like WG cares much about what we write anyway. Wasted breath.

People are already using AA ships and protect people. I even did it myself in navy fleet/field? Not sure what the exact name was anymore and enjoyed finding the golden angle there :D But yeah it would be rough for the CVs to position so they aren't BB fodder while staying with the fleet no doubt. I already try to stay relatively close and it does indeed happen that I get blown the [edited]up. I know too well how rough it is because I actually try to optimize my striketime by virtue of staying close or just be there and deny an area for planes by presence behind an island although I wish my AA on the ship was a lot stronger at times so that risk/reward isn't so skewed. However there is a millions of ways to adress that issue and it can be an addition that stops the CVs from hugging the border, wasting time on strafebaiting each other (and we all know how GOOD it is to land a clean strafe on the enemy fighter squad first).

Nope not so they are immune to sniping but to provide AA coverage for the fleet e.g. so the position of that useless hull becomes relevant as one of the options. Don't switch my arguments around as needed. The position a CV takes should be more relevant than benefitial striketime, but saying the AA could be provided largely by the CV is just one option. Right now there are already tools at present that just need a little push to work together better. If we just took out the fighters right now then CVs would have a very strong reason to "interact" with each other actually since the CV itself cannot prevent the enemy CV to just let the dots work. Pretty much what happens if 2 strikeforces meet each other and suddenly the CV has a big interest to be accompanied by cruisers. Teamplay or dead CV ensues. Teamplay which I believe should be encouraged instead of what we have right now in random battles. Self-sufficiency is not the best idea for games like this.

Even without fighter planes that rule is not broken hence why I wonder why you keep bringing it up. CVs can attack each other thus interaction is possible. They also synergize by making an air assault way bigger to overwhelm AA. Bottom Line: Fighters or not the principle is not broken. Not like without fighters you can't touch each other at all..

Why do you keep recycling that weird phrase of no basis in game design. Are you a game designer or have ever worked there? This is such a weird argument to make. Might aswell claim my age is the issue...

Perception bias. Good matchmaking actually means you lose 50% of the matches and you dont seem to be prepared for that at all :D

The matches where I am actually deplaned are a vast minority and it doesn't necessarily mean that I lost it just means I can't do anything anymore. It was more of a problem at low tier, but at medium tier I have more than enough planes and deplaning something like the hiryu... Yeah unless he throws them like a crazy it ain't happening before the match is over. The usualy defense here is that CV need fighter planes to deliver AA, scouting and to interact with each other and that is just wrong. There is massive AA threats e.g. I just made the foolish thought of maybe being able to drop 1-2 torps on an Atlanta. Needless to say my 2 torper squads of the saipan (T9 planes) not only didn't drop but they were burned basically like hitting a wall. Plenty of other stuff around that behaves similar. So as AA itself they are not necessary. They can still interact with each other by virtue of striking each other, although that is hardly ever successful/worth it (with or with fighters) already. I just happen to think that strafing is an additional threat that doesn't need to be on the field. I am not subjected to massive planehunting, but at some point one has to say there is enough anti airplane in the game. Enough to worry about as a CV player. Strafebaiting each other or locking/exit-strafing into LUL my third fighter going in and these kind of things don't need to be a part of it aswell for the game to be functional around planes. Now if we remove strafing we might aswell go all the way and remove fighters. In CBT it was just mostly an click & forget type of deal and we don't really need that. In my opinioin there would be more epic battles if fleet movement was encouraged and removing fighterplanes would be a step into just that direction. You go away on your own? Now it is impossible for anyone to secure your [edited]against incoming airstrikes. Not like turning in itself isn't already strong enough since strikes usually vaporize fast if you take your time to make the "as perfect as it gets drop" against an inward turning threat (even if you do it cross one plane is in waiting position for a bit).

The question is being dealt damage. You can ask anyone if they like to be defeated and the answer will be no and damage ties directly into that and still driving in a pack would make that one actually disappear.

Just turn into the planes and be aware and you will hardly notice them. Drive in a pack etc. For a CV to crush your BB dreams hard you need to make a mistake. Bonus points if you see it early and turn away and align with them before turning into them. That is enough to be a nightmare for CV players.

Back in the day I was playing US 2 torp squad CVs. It was a very fun experience where if someone made a mistake (like turning AWAY from incoming torp squads) they got capitally punished. Against competent BB players it wasn't that worthwhile to try and even attack them since they would turn into you massively reducing the alphastrike or they would hang around other ships like oh gosh CL that had panic and alike. Now I return to see the changes and I can only say: Disgusting. There are DDs with enough AA prowess that they down planes, there is strafing that unrelated from balance makes the whole experience unfun. On the subject of strafing alone it makes a single fighter a massive threat to your whole strike and I don't really see a reason for it. Yes fighter vs fighter was click and forget before and so it should. I don't even think that fighters belong in the game since their whole purpose is to negate the other planes without having any attack capabilities of their own. Gameplay wise it is not fun. Let us simply assume you are strike and the enemy brings a fighter deck. Okay that means basically both CVs will largely have no impact. You will get a couple of strikes of here and there maybe and the single diverbomber from him might aswell not be there since it makes no difference on the match overall. You want players feeling that they actively shape the match and that is not done by having them negate another player which may or may not be good. There are BBs now that can venture by themself without any fear because whole squads can die to their automated passive AA before they can drop (e.g. ryujo vs carolina). While the old system might not have been perfect it gave a massive incentive to STAY TOGETHER and act as a FLEET. Now we have a gigantic strafe baiting simulator or peek-a-boo my fighter hid behind the enemy fleet and now strafes into your attacksquads (git gud) and a plethorra of other strong AA tools so since I hit T6 again I am just disgusted by what CV play looks like nowadays. It is not an engaging experience at all. US vs IJN is still not balanced, but I guess it flew over your head that more squads = more options. I mean look at US they cant even crossdrop. CV play should revolve around finding weaknesses in the enemies positioning and capitalize on it. It should not be about avoiding AA forcefields running around and spending half the match strafing into each other from various angles. WG the CVs are your tool to force good player behaviour. Make being by yourself a deadly scenario and the BBs will start forming an iron fleet.

You are funny. The spotting fighter already represents the reduction in strike force for all US. Additionally the removal of fighters would help with balancing the fighter problematic between IJN and US. At the end of the day 1vs2 fighters the IJN will always have the advantage. More fighters in the air, a lot more opportunity to come at you. Now of course I don't know how big of a deal it is since I still lack game experience for this particular game, but my game sense is honed with massive hours. Thus for other games developers do actually seek my insight and put my ideas into the game especially for balance. Are fighters an additional layer? Yes. Not a critical one though and if another layer is needed then something else could be found.