RedBear87

This is certainly part of it; the navy apparently would like to have 2 carriers by 2025, when they plan to retire Sao Paolo, but this is going to be very expensive and who knows whether the politicians will agree to it or not. Meanwhile DCNS has been pressing for a PA-2 based design, right now I think it's the only valid option on the table. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/france-steaming-ahead-on-pa2cvf-carrier-project-01621/ But the issue remains with the aircrafts, developing the proposed "Sea Gripen" could end up being more expensive than buying already existing 4.5 generation carrier-based aircrafts (this is just my wild guess, maybe I'm wrong), buying a different aircraft in small numbers for the future carriers would create two different logistic chains for the navy and airforce which would surely increase costs. Well, let's wait and see, maybe there'll be new developments in the next weeks/months. Talking again about Sao Paolo instead, DCNS completed trials of the catapults just some days ago.

It's possible, the carrier and those A-4 were relatively cheap but they still give a minimal capability and especially a platform to train personnel, besides acting as a symbol of prestige. Well, the acquirement of the Gripen makes a lot more of sense to me, it offers the best performance at the lowest price, I think they should thank the NSA and Snowden for blocking the Super Hornet sale; instead the Rafale was already excluded in earlier stages but it would have greatly increased Sao Paolo usefulness, its exclusion is another bizarre chapter in the Brazilian aircraft carrier strategy.

There are several weird ships out there, but few are as puzzling as Sao Paolo. What do they need it for? Both the carrier and the embarked planes are really old and they'll have to find substitutes in the near future. I don't understand whether it's just a matter of national prestige, or whether they really think that a stopgap measure is better than remaining without any carrier at all.

Tier X is 68800t H41 design study. I have to say that I really like how a lot of people expect Bismarck to be tier X, even some friends of mine IRL were thinking the same thing...

Bismarck and Hood? Yes, but not at the release, only USA and Japan will be implemented initially; according to what the developers mentioned so far Hood should be tier VII and Bismarck tier VIII.

Ah, I see. Indeed it's quite possible, unless Britain will get involved in some major conflict like the Falkland War while the carrier is still mothballed. That was before they went back to SVTOL configuration, I think they finished installing it in November.

But I don't see any possible buyer right now, this design is a compromise born from UK's specific needs, it can't easily satisfy other countries' needs without extensive (and expensive) modifications.

Weight saving apparently, also somehow the new layout, including the island moved to aft and the relocated elevators, should actually increase sortie rate, but I still don't exactly understand "how" (I think it has to do with freeing up as much deck space as possible but I can't find a detailed explanation). Apparently the carrier right now would need only half of the total energy output, but they think that additional power is needed for future upgrades (stuff like laser and the so called "Dynamic Armor Protection System" which seems to come straight out of Macross).

Well, the electromagnetic catapult is indeed a futuristic idea, it was featured in 80s sci-fi anime after all! :D Anyway I have to say that I don't like the island of the Gerald Ford, I'm talking simply in terms of "aesthetic", I prefer the Nimitz's one.

And perhaps that was because those "noobs" in the government were less noobish than those elsewhere (related question: which is the European country that still spends 2.5% of its GDP on defence despite being almost bankrupted?); defence is hardly a real priority anywhere in Europe right now, spending too much in this area will inevitably have negative consequences on other sectors like education, sanity, infrastructures, etc, all those things that keep the economy of a country afloat.

But you should either start exporting BMWs or find some natural gas first...

On 28 June 1947 "United Nations" representatives convened at Tokyo to allocate, by drawing lots, ships of the former Imperial Japanese Navy as war compensation. Yukikaze happened to be the first pick of the Chinese representative. Lucky Chinese captain draws the lucky ship Yukikaze reached Shangai on 3 July 1947 and she was formally handed over on 6 July 1947, at that time she was identified as "Pick n°1" (接1), she was renamed Tan Yang (DD-12) on 1 May 1948, becoming the flagship of the ROC Navy. Handover ceremony Like all Japanese warships Yukikaze was completely demilitarised when she was handed over to the Chinese authorities and she was initially used only as a training vessel inside the harbour, but after the defeat of the KMT in late 1948 she evacuated from Shangai to Keelung (Taiwan), Chiang Kai-shek himself was on board at the time. After her evacuation to Keelung it was finally decided to re-arm Tan Yang with old Japanese equipment; she received two 12.7 cm/40 Type 89 guns in twin mount (in place of the original A turret), four 10 cm/65 Type 98 guns in twin mounts (in place of the original X and Y turrets) and eight 25mm guns; the Type 89 and Type 98 guns were most likely scavenged from shore mounts and they were installed on ad-hoc assembled turrets, different from the ones used by the IJN. Chiang Kai-shek reviewing Tang Yan, note the aft 100mm guns After the completion of her re-arming Tan Yang led a visit to the Philippines in August 1953 and soon after that she enforced a blockade around the coasts of the PRC, intercepting a Polish tanker and a Soviet transport. Manila visit Intercepting a Soviet transport ship

Unryu . Unryu (project G16, ship number 302) was ordered as part of the Rapid Naval Armaments Supplement Programme (Maru Kyu Keikaku) of August 1941, in preparation of imminent hostilities against the United States; after the debacle of Operation MI (Battle of Midway) 15 more ships (#5001–5015) of the same class were ordered under the Modified 5th Naval Armaments Supplement Programme (Kai Maru 5 Keikaku) but only 6 ships, including Unryu, were laid down and of these 3 were completed. Unryu was conceived as a simple medium sized carrier which could be built in larger numbers than Taiho, for this reason her design was based on a modified Hiryu but incorporated both some features of the previous Soryu and some innovations. Main differences compared to Hiryu included island's placement on starboard, like on Soryu, and a slightly larger island's superstructure which was compensated by an asymmetrical hull, with port side deviating from centreline more than starboard; she received two large elevators instead of three like on Soryu and Hiryu, enabling her to operate larger aircrafts under development including the Reppu, Ryusei and Saiun; arrester wires were upgraded to Kusho Type 4 capable of handling the larger aircrafts and three Kusho Type 3 Mk. 10 crash barriers were installed. Hull and flight deck armour were similar to Hiryu, providing very little protection against attacks. Her aviation fuel tanks were integral part of the hull like in previous Japanese carriers, this was a substantial weakness because shocks to the hull were transmitted to the fuel tanks causing fractures and leaks; in an attempt to rectify this issue aviation fuel capacity was reduced to 1/3 and the space surrounding the tanks was filled with concrete. Flammable materials such as linoleum used in previous carrier were eliminated, fire-resistant paint was used and fire-extinguishers were improved by adding 2% of soap solution as stabiliser to the foam mixture. Steering and steering gear were better armoured and hangar ventilation was improved. Hiryu's semi-balanced rudder proved to be problematic, it was thus decided to use Soryu's outward inclined fully balanced twin rudders. Unryu was equipped with the same machinery that was used for Soryu and Hiryu, four sets of cruiser-type turbines capable of delivering 152,000 shp connected to four shafts, giving Unryu a top speed of 34 knots during trials. Initial armament layout included 6 twin Type 89 12.7cm DP guns and 93 Type 96 25mm AA guns (21 triple mounts and 30 single mounts), six 28-barrel 120mm AA rocket launchers were added during a refit sometime in 1944. Compared to this massive AA layout the number of directors was limited to only two Type 94 directors for the Type 89 guns, installed port amidships and abreast the island, and six Type 95 directors for the triple mounted 25mm guns. Her initial radar suite included two Type 21 air search radars and one Type 13 air search radar, an additional Type 13 was installed later. . History: Unryu was laid down at Yokosuka Navy Yard on 1 August 1942 and she was commissioned on 6 August 1944, her first and only skipper was Captain Kaname Konishi, veterarn commander of light cruiser Abakuma and two destroyer divisions; she missed Operation Sho-Go (Battle of Leyte Gulf) because of a lack of both aircrafts and trained pilots, spending her time in the Inland Sea without embarking a full airwing. Some consideration was given to deploying her in limited escort and plane transport missions but the loss of both the escort carrier Shinyo and "super carrier" Shinano showed that submarine attacks were a too great threat. This uneventful life came to an end on 13 December 1944 when MacArthur's invasion fleet was sighted in the Sulu Sea and the Japanese command started fearing that the long waited invasion of Luzon was imminent. To counter it Unryu was ordered to ferry 30 Ohka rocket powered kamikaze aircrafts. Her small taskforce included two newly built Matsu class destroyers, Hinoki and Momi, of Desdiv 52 and the legendary Shigure, famous for being an unsinkable ship and the sole survivor of many battles, that joined them on 15 December. Sailing day was set for 16 December but it was delayed to the following day when it was discovered that the Americans were landing at Mindoro rather than Luzon. They finally departed on 17 December with a load of planes, suicide boats, some soldiers, passengers and most importantly the deadly Ohka. Despite picking enemy radar waves twice and changing course accordingly the small taskforce was not under risk of surface or air attacks because TF38 was wrestling against Typhoon Cobra during those hours; but Kaname had no way to know this and he was worried because of the low visibility caused by the bad weather. On the morning of 19 December the taskforce narrowly dodged a mine but it was on the afternoon of that day that they met USS Redfish (SS-395) under Commander L.D. McGregor off the Chinese coast, he was alerted beforehand by Ultra intelligence about the presence of an important enemy taskforce moving southwards. The American submarine was sighted by a Japanese patrol plane that dropped a depth charge, but the scout plane merely gave to the American captain the confirmation that the enemy taskforce was near. It managed to get close and at 16:29 the Japanese taskforce positioned herself on a 30 degree starboard angle on the bow of Redfish, a near perfect position, McGregor didn't even have to modify his approach to launch his salvo of six torpedoes 8 minutes later. Just some minutes before the submarine had been finally detected by Unryu, but almost immediately after that they received visual and acoustic confirmation of the torpedo salvo coming from 30° starboard; Kaname ordered Unryu on a maximum starboard turn at full speed and the fast carrier responded quickly, they saw three torpedoes passing ahead them, but the fourth hit Unryu under the forward part of the island. Boiler room n°1 and 2 were flooded, fires broke out in the hangar and n°2 crew space, but the worst damage was the shattering of the main steam pipe which caused pressure to drop, extinguishing all but boiler n°8. Unryu was soon dead in the water and her electrical power failed as well. The ship was listing 3° to starboard but it was in no imminent danger of sinking. McGregor on Redfish noticed it as well and he was determined to finish her off, but Hinoki was coming rushing towards him; Redfish fired her four stern torpedoes against the Japanese destroyer but they were dodged. Thus McGregor was sitting near a destroyer without any torpedo tubes. The increasingly daring American captain decided to ramain at periscope height, something Hinoki's captain failed to detect, and waited for one torpedo to be reloaded. Finally at 16:50 he fired it against Unryu. Meanwhile damage control on Unryu was progressing well, the fire in the quarters' room was extinguished and electrical power returned after the emergency generators were started; a fire broke out inside n°8 boiler room and it had to be shot down but it was compensated by boilers n°5,6 and 7 restarting successfully. Soon steam pressure was back to regular values and the list was kept in check by pushing overboard trucks and other equipment stored on the flight deck. Unryu was back underway. But just as the ship started moving again the new torpedo was sighted to starboard; gunners desperately tried to stop it, without success. The torpedo hit near the elevator room and near the ammo, aviation fuel tanks and materials store rooms. The ensuing explosions devastated the bow area and the ship quickly started listing to starboard. The situation appeared immediately hopeless and the order to abandon ship was given. Captain Kaname remained at his place while his untested crew gave him one last reason of pride when they calmly collected on the already oblique deck and shouted "Banzai! Long Live the Emperor!" three times, before trying to save themselves. Some gunners remained on their positions, shooting against the enemy submarine's position until the very end. Unryu sank in just 7 minutes and only 146 persons were saved while Hinoki kept trying to avenge the carrier; Redifish was damaged but after touching the bottom McGregor waited for two hours and narrowly escaped just after sunset. Shigure kept searching for Redfish during the night and on the following morning a failure of her steering motor valves forced Lt. Cmdr. Manabu to return back to Sasebo instead of following the other two destroyers to China and Philippines as planned. This ended up being the last time Shigure survived her whole taskforce, as Hinoki and Momi were sunk in the Philippines on 5 January by surface and air forces attacking Luzon; Shigure's luck, or perhaps curse, finally came to an end at the end of the same month when she was torpedoed by USS Blackfin. . Chronology: Builder: Yokosuka Naval Arsenal, Yokosuka Operators: Imperial Japanese Navy Plan: Rapid Naval Armaments Supplement Programme Laid down: 1 August 1942 Launched: 25 September 1943 Commissioned: 6 August 1944 Fate: sunk, 19 December 1944. Struck: 20 February 1945 . General characteristics: Ship type: aircraft carrier Ship class: Unryu class Displacement: 17,480t standard load, 20,450t during trials Total length: 227.35m Beam: 22m Draft: 7.86m Installed power: 152,000 shp (113,000 kW) Propulsion: 4 shafts, 4 geared steam turbine sets, 8 Kampon water-tube boilers Maximum speed: 34 knots Fuel: 3670 of heavy crude oil Range: 8,000 nautical miles at 18 knots Complement: 1,556 Sensors and processing systems: 2 × Type 21 air search radars; 2 × Type 13 air search radars; 1 × Type 93 sonar; 2 × Type 0 hydrophones Armament: 6 × 2 – 12.7 cm/40 Type 89 dual purpose guns; 21 × 3, 30 × 1 – 25 mm Type 96 AA guns; 6 × 28 - 12 cm (4.7 in) AA rocket launchers Armor: belt: 48–140 mm; deck: 25–56 mm Aircraft carried: 1942 plan: 12 + 3 Mitsubishi A6M, 27 + 3 Aichi D3A, 18 + 2 Nakajima B5N; 1944 plan: 18 + 2 Mitsubishi A7M, 27 Aichi B7A, 6 Nakajima C6N (on the deck) Armament for aircrafts: 72 x 800kg bombs, 240 x 250kg bombs, 360 x 60kg bombs, 36 x Type 91 Mod. 6 aerial torpedoes (6 torpedoes could be handled at the same time) Aviation facilities: flight deck: 216.9x27.0 m; upper hangar: 175.0x21.0x?m; lower hangar: 130.0x21.0x?m; 2 elevators (15.0x14.0m, 6.5t); aircraft fuel stowage: 216,000l . . . Japanese aircraft carrier Unryu on 19 December 1944, photo by USS Redfish (SS-395) . . Unryu's schematics . Other ships of the class: The other ships of this class never saw real operational use, Amagi was hit by several American airstrikes that first caused her to settle on the bottom in shallow waters and then capsized her, she was later partially salvaged and scrapped. Katsuragi was also damaged by air attacks but she was repaired after the war and used as repatriation vessel in 1946, she was struck from the navy list on 15 November and scrapped from 22 December 1946. Kasagi was 84%, Aso 60% and Ikoma 60% completed when work on them was stopped, Aso was expended in July 1945 as target for suicide boats, but she was later salvaged and scrapped between 1946 and 1947 like her sisters. Katsuragi and Aso were fitted with Kagero class destroyer machinery but, Katsuragi speed dropped of only a couple of knots during trials, despite their output was just 2/3 of the Suzuya/Ibuki type machinery installed on Unryu and Amagi; both Katsuragi and Aso also had the CNC (Copper Non-Cemented) steel of the belt armour replaced with high tensile Ducol steel. There were small differences between the equipments of the completed carriers and in particular Katsuragi received radar detectors (Type E-27 radar detector and Model 3 radar detector), anti-surface fire control radar (Type 22 Modify 4) and experimentally carried a land-based Type 14 early warning radar. Ikoma is sometimes classified as a subclass because of her shift-arrangement machinery and other modifications including improved bomb hoists and a new electrical system using 440V alternating current. . Final considerations: These ships were completed too late to see any action because of a lack of aircrafts, trained pilots and fuel, but one can only wonder what would have happened if mass production of similar ships carriers based on Soryu/Hiryu design had started just a pair of years before the war in place of expensive and ultimately useless super-secret behemoths like Yamato and Musashi. . Notes: Sources on this class are conflicting as usual, in particular some sources conflict on the configuration of the 25mm AA guns but most seem to agree on the 21x3+30x1. I think it's worth mentioning that except for Unryu (Cloud Dragon), these carriers are named after mountains, which were previously used for battlecruisers and heavy cruisers, I couldn't find any explanation for this change. . Sources: English and Japanese wikipedia pages CombinedFleet's Tabular record of movement, Anthony Tully's article and Kojinsha n°6 translation Navypedia Hirootoko's blog for the colourised pictures FMG for the illustrations

A small update, I've found a pair of post-war videos featuring Amagi and Katsuragi while messing around on j-aircraft: Never mind the vaguely jingoistic title, that's the Yanks for you...

Update from the last QA on our forum: Akizuki class is tier 9 atm.

The armament could be inexact, according to Japanese wikipedia and this old webpage she was equipped with 2 x 2 25mm Type 96 MG instead of 13mm Type 93 MG. Also according to Ships of the World 522 she received one more 25mm Type 96 twin mount , 4 light AA machineguns (model is not mentioned but Japanese wikipedia mentions her expending 7.7mm shells against American aircrafts) and a Type 21 Radar sometime during her service, possibly during her refit at Yokosuka between 29 March 1943 and 25 May 1943 mentioned in CombinedFleet's TROM. Lastly the number of mines is supposed to be 600, but in the "general characteristics" section is reported as 500, and they're supposed to be Type 93 mine according to Japanese wikipedia and Ships of the World, not the older Type 6. Complement is reported as 414 in the same sources but this is probably a merely indicative figure. This is an interesting vessel but the AA suite was probably a little too lacking, anyway I wonder if Teit would call it hybrid minelayer/cruiser! :D

Redundancy and survivability, forward island is for navigation control while aft island is dedicated to air traffic control, islands in the middle are a compromise in this regard, but in case of emergency either island can control all operations. Also it seems that the location of the gas turbines made this option attractive since the beginning because the islands also act as intake/outtake. Source Honestly I think that they would have been great carriers with the CATOBAR configuration, but now they kind of looks like a silly waste of money.

You're welcome; another famous Japanese ship that survived the war and was transferred to another country is Hibiki, but I can't find a lot about her, in particular it looks like there's no picture at all of Hibiki in Soviet service... I've only found one picture of Hibiki in repatriation vessel "configuration" and pics of her wreck which is apparently a dive site. I had no idea about it until yesterday; the 17th ship, Yoizuki had a peculiarly unlucky (well, when you're the 17th...) fate, after evacuating to Taiwan the nationalists called Japanese engineers from Sasebo to repair her machineries and re-arm her, apparently they were even considering to equip her with Type 93 torpedoes, but the Korean War and the presence of the 7th fleet in the street of Taiwan eliminated the perceived need for a fully overhauled Japanese destroyer, eventually she was scrapped in 1963 without ever being fully repaired.

Well, it's the lack of underwater protection that makes them closer to cruisers than battlecruisers, but the concept was pretty similar. Here, at the very end of the article. I think they were expensive because of their limited run, in military procurements usually less orders mean higher per-unit costs.

Hunting down Japanese cruisers? Their level of protection was just enough to be safe from 200mm guns, they would have ended up like Fisher's battlecruisers against battleships. Tier X cruisers do exist, Des Moines class for the Americans and CA1941 (super paperish project) for the Japanese. I guess they're planning to treat Alaska more like a battlecruiser than a "large cruiser".

In 1956 because of logistic issues with ammunitions and maintenance the Japanese equipment was removed and replaced with American one, she received three Mark 12 5" (127 mm)/38 guns on open mounts, two 3″ (76 mm)/50 guns, ten 40 mm Bofors guns and depth charge launchers. Tan Yang after 1956 refit 14 December 1964 exercises In 1958 she was involved in the Second Taiwan Strait Crisis, shelling Kinmen on 23 August and participating to the rescue of Toujiang during the Liao Luowan naval battle.In August 1959 she engaged two PRC patrols, sinking one and damaging another. Tan Yang was retired on 16 December 1965 because of troubles with her ageing engine, she was decommissioned on 16 November 1966 but she remained moored in Hong Kong as a training ship until she ran aground in summer 1969 because of a typhoon and it was decided to scrap her, she was completely scrapped by 31 December 1971. In Japan there was a campaign to get Yukikaze back after her decommissioning, but resistance from the ROC government and the damage sustained in 1969 led to the failure of this campaign.Nevertheless on 8 December 1971 one anchor and the helm were returned to Japan and they're on display at the Technical School of the Maritime Self-defence Forces (former Japanese Naval Academy), Etajima. Additionally the left screw is on display at the ROC Naval Academy, Kaohsiung City. Decommissioning ceremony Handing over of the helm and anchor Anchor at Etajima Screw at Kaohsiung Sources: English, Japanese and Chinese Wikipediahttp://60.250.180.26/war/3202.htmlhttp://www.ihao.org/dz5//viewthread.php?tid=128782http://www.aboluowang.com/2013/0127/280813.html#sthash.H25OWDDh.dpbshttp://www.168abc.net/_Board/Detail.aspx?Board_sn=583178 http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/icy_rainy_day/archive/2009/07/12 http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/sn12242002/33350389.html http://blog.livedoor.jp/irootoko_jr/archives/1398393.html http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/ships/destroyers/24818/view/china_tan_yang_%28ijn_yukikaze%29_%28destroyer%29/ Notes: I don't speak a word of Chinese, I got interested in this ship while discussing about it on 4chan, someone (possibly from that discussion) recently updated the English wikipedia with some more infos about this ship but I did some research, using google translate, to double check it. If there's any Chinese speaker here who wants to point out corrections or adds something that I've omitted I would greatly appreciate it.

There was only one Alaska during WWII, the previous two were a 19th century sloop of war and a WWI improvised minesweeper converted from a fishing trawler, that ship at tier VI is this Alaska; I don't know about her being too strong for tier VI, she looks like a typical glass cannon.

Right now Alaska is tier VI, as far as we know. BC-65 was the planned Japanese response to Alaska class, it's placed at the same tier atm. You can edit it. As a curiosity, Alaska's turrets were the most expensive mounts built by the US Navy during WWII, they costed around 1,550,000$ each excluding the price of the guns.

Orlunu, on 04 December 2013 - 09:15 PM, said: And, to (dangerously) encourage you further, what would the designation for this type of thing be? SSVS‽ Probably SSV, but I'm not even sure this classification has been ever officially adopted by the USN. Type B submarines were classified as "Junsen Otsu-gata" (Cruiser Submarine Type B) which has an equivalent in the USN (CS, this type was standardised in article VII of the London Naval Treaty), but I-400 was simply known as I-yonhyaku-gata Sensuikan (Submarine Type I-400) or Sentoku-gata (Special Type Submarine). Deamon93, on 04 December 2013 - 09:41 PM, said: Unless the Seiran 1800 kg bomb has to say something to the DD. I'm sure that the I 400 is difficult to miss with depth charges though ahah I would love to see those silly depth charges against I-201 class though, 19 knots submerged and 110m of maximum depth during trials.

Orlunu, on 04 December 2013 - 08:15 PM, said: Any game with the IJN in is going to have to get over what an "abomination" sticking planes on every type of ship you can is :trollface:.If only we could have I-400 class... But let's not forget that it was the Americans who loaded a seaplane on a Fletcher class destroyer, not even the French tried it on their large destroyers (but they gave it some consideration). Orlunu, on 04 December 2013 - 08:15 PM, said: Don't worry, you aren't. Be as anal as you want. Please don't encourage me, it's dangerous.