Beastofwar

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When stealthy Asashio is not intercepted by enemies and can slip past enemy lines so it can have clear lauch ( and reload boost for another wave ) of fast 20 km range very stealthy DW torpedo's at enemy BB (camping ) there it is the most powerful ship in game. Instant top score board too when you hit enemy BB. Not even FDR catching a stationary island camper broadside is as pleasing to the eye as multiple enemy BB being hit by waves of DW torpedos. It is like a scene from Das Boot. I even think it has a lot of similarities to the submarines that will be introduced in game...except ofcourse in that they cannot dive. RDF and radar enemies can spoil the fun though. CV too if they manage to directly over fly you. But you shouldn't be near caps anyway as that is where they look for DD 1st. But near the maps edges is not smart either as many enemies will predict an Assashio tries to pass their lines there. If Asashio is still available that probably means above stuff is hard to master and/or often is foiled. It is very rewarding when it does succeed however.

The devil himself.....why - o - why did i not have rocket planes but of all things a sniper ( camper ) BB at such a rare occasion ? My BB secondaries snuffed his DD pal around the other cap though but i only got about 1 long range AP shell on HIM and never saw him in the match again. I have a good impression why he is so anti-CV.....he likes to be invisible and do terrible things to an enemy team.

I do like that part of your idea's as i always hated to equip catapult fighters in matches with no CV while i could have used catapult recon much better. But catapult fighters with travel-away-from-ship ability should not increase ship gun range like real catapult spotters do but would be able to peekaboo behind islands and in caps and such....before being whacked by AA of what lurks there ofcourse as they are easily destroyed like they are now. And i think you may expect too much from 3-4 catapult fighter planes ( for most ships ) when having them intercept CV planes somewhere in the map would that be possible. By current rules they can only down their own number, not more. That would not stop CV from attacking your ship either. And you could be outplayed by the CV - you would be an amateur in what they do all the time - with no fighters to defend your ship ( reduce number of passes on it ) at all So plenty of downsides to be against it. It is actually a good idea i think, offering more sense of player control or at least catapult plane utility. And you don't HAVE to use it ofc with normal mechanics staying in place.

This puzzles me.... When i first met one in Kaga it's AA defence was laughable bad. It did take many attacks to sink, this is the result of it's large heal. But c'mon...Kaga planes ! They are made of rice paper ! But then i used it in upper silver tier ranked.....it did fare very poor there ( the ship comparison feature in the loading roster gave me laughs as ANYTHING it is mirrored to has MUCH stronger ship weapons and often torpedos as well ) but it did shoot down dozens of planes attacking allied ships around me. Its 4 stock FLAK explosions are nothing to be impressed about. The damn thing has 6 x 76.2 mm AA guns and dual purpose 152 mm. It appears WG thinks the dual purpose guns are the only ones that may shoot FLAK munitions. I don't know what you are thinking but are these 76.2 mm not FLAK guns ? Wikipedia even mentions the ( general ) gun type was developed by the US to stop Kamikaze attacks where 20 and 40 mm failed. And my Kaga pilots didnt even attempt that ! When it was to have 8-10 FLAK explosions nothing would change about its weak power vs other ships, but it would be a serious DFAA threat. Type Fixed Weight of Complete Round 36 lbs. (16.4 kg) 1a Projectile Types and Weights 2a HE Fuze NC101 3a: 15 lbs. (6.8 kg) Bursting Charge N/A Projectile Length N/A Propellant Charge 11.2 lbs. (5.1 kg) Cartridge weight (empty): 9.8 lbs. (4.4 kg) Cartridge 76.2 mm x 662R Muzzle Velocity 3,400 fps (1,036 mps) Working Pressure 22.5 tons/in2 (3,547 kg/cm2) Approximate Barrel Life N/A Tiger: 851 rounds Restigouche and Mackenzie: 1,000 rounds

Impossible to say if we dont know what you intend to do with them ( randoms, ranked, coop, operations or even CB i guess ) and what classes you like to play and what tactics you prefer they should do well.

Cruiser skill tree is very boring. But.. Cruisers with DFAA - and good stock values like lots of FLAK explosions - can be made to have considerable to even rediculosus levels of AA power ( when DFAA is used ) with reworked captain skills and modules. The thing is - and i respect that, i have no such builds myself ! - that goes at direct cost of surface to surface capabilities and survivability. For an enemy that may not be there for lots of matches. So the matter is not "AA does not work" but "AA builds make me a weak Cruiser vs other ships" That is why such dangerous to CV specialized (DF)AA Cruisers are extremely rare in game. With stock AA they certainly are not that dangerous although DFAA certainly can be annoying. But i can tell when i meet them allright. They can even destroy FDR squadrons in mere seconds.....and for that INSANE power* is needed. * "You are a noob that flies straight through flak L2P" No. Most CV at 60 % ship WR randoms, over 80 % ship WR in ranked. Obviously not. Besides that boosted FLAK and continuous AA kills returning planes that dropped munitions - that are outside player control - too, so killing them inbound or outbound. So all that said : the reworked Cruiser skill tree has some very nice builds to offer. But not "cookie cutter one size fits all" meant for all Cruisers. As for AA Cruisers you need strong AA values and DFAA else it is not viable. You can clearly see there is a brawler build to be had also. But i too consider Cruisers to be too fragile for that nad have not dabbled in such arts. So maybe players in general have not fully explored what skills match what ship and tactics yet ? And mass go for generic "cookie cutter builds" not feeling powerful because their ships charactristics are not strenghened by them. Guilty of that too.

In ranked this is common. Or you simply lose as camper BB have close to 0 value when battling over caps in a 7 vs 7 setting in many smaller maps. Really...that is why Bronze can be such a frustrating affair : lots of campers being far to passive and remote that did not adapt to much faster dynamics (yet) It is the beauty of that mode too : what works in randoms ( but frustrates players like me ) does not fly in ranked. And vice versa ofcourse. And if WG is to be believed, ranked is a permanent mode now. So it is (now) viable to have builds optimal for that instead of randoms.

Just one test for quick reference. pic 1 : starting time pic 2 : Full secondary skill & secondary enhancing modules ( slot 3 & 6 ) 1 minute 3 seconds ( roughly 1 minute ) pic 3 : No secondary skills & all secondary modules removed 2 minutes and 50 seconds ( roughly 3 minutes ) Difference : quite dramatic. ( and even more dramatic had my captain not have IFHE so reduced fire chance in pic 2 no doubt killing the DD even faster without it as you dont need IFHE for 19 mm with German secondaries* ) Since you ofcourse can shoot the DD with main gun HE as well ( the secondary skill decreases main gun reloading as added bonus ) that DD has a very short life expectancy facing a secondary build BB on the edge ( giving enough reaction time as you know it likely has launched ) of several DD's torpedo range ( 8 km ) or safely beyond it ( 6 km ) . Especially working in unison with an allied DD that can act as spotter and early torpedo warning and ofcourse fighting that DD too. Or radar cruisers that lift smoke cover. When extending the discussion to secondary buid vs Cruiser and BB efficiently you are talking IFHE or not. It is connected to this issue - the build has to fight all kinds of classes afterall - but a different consideration as supporting allied DD by destroying enemy DD and support Cruisers is an important rmatch influencing role for Brawlers. It can ( or will ) collaps flanks and conquer caps. *Buth with it all German calibers - even the 105 mm's - penetrate 32 mm, which i use in an anti-Cruiser role for Brawler BB. For other Brawler capable BB i keep this secondary threshold at 26-27 mm. I do not lob HE with main guns to burn down distant BB with these BB. I choose brawler BB to be more capable vs closer range DD and Support Cruisers.

Action = reaction Weaken one factor in the food chain and everything held in check below it becomes rampant. Strenghten one factor in the food chain and some things below it may become exstinct. Yes it has current Cruiser situation has everything to do with nerfs and ( now removed ) buffs in other classes.

Increase in BB causes increase in DD because BB are so easy to kill for them. It is like clubbing baby seals by brutes. Especially if anti-DD mechanics are missing in the food chain, which are in this case Cruisers. Which WG caused by listening to the nerf crying DD too much, so every patch nerfed CV feel they waste their time on DD and switch to the next easy to kill low HP pool enemy : (light) Cruisers. On top of that WG diverted newer CV focus away from DD and onto Cruisers ( AP rockets ) and to some extend BB. ( FDR ) That is where we are now......not caused by CV, but actual nerfings to CV and focussing new introduced CV efficiency away from DD. Maybe WG can not even be blamed : many Cruiser players cannot be bothered to check what captain skills ( and slot 6 module ) can do for their DFAA.

In DD you will get hit by high ROF, high range ( 10+km ) secondaries that probably had their useless accuracy somewhat corrected with captain skill and module(s) And that hits exactly for the same damage as shells from DD main guns. ( barring the truely useless 88 and 90 mm secondaries that cannot penetrate DD hulls, not even with IFHE ) Players that find that worthless simply are not used to fighting CLOSER to enemy DD's and probably lack knowledge how to survive that as they disregard all tactics or even captain skill enabling them to fight nearer to enemy DD which has the purpose of supporting allied DD and surpressing or killing enemy Cruisers. ( can't dodge medium-short range BB salvo's...) And the same thing goes for players that consider - stock - secondaries as short range flame throwers against BB. That does work to improve your DPS but it is not the only worth you can get from them, Thinking that way you limit yourself and your tactics.

I hoped to find evidence the guns should be buffed to compensate for only 4 barrels with relative low ROF and only light AP shells.... But IRL it seems to have been an economic peacetime stopgap solution beween too expensive and considered obsolete gun cruisers and newer much more capable missile cruisers. Mission : PR as in state visit and colony relations. That is of little use to us in combat vs gun cruisers that are all but obsolete. And peacetime economical reasons and roles that do not apply in game. But that said....i know of the background of Dutch Cruisers that suffered even more from gouvernements turning every dime a million times before spending it resulting in grossly underpowered Cruisers who's main objective was to perfom their roles as economically as possible at direct expense of combat power were it to come to actual fighting to which these ships - as proven in combat - were ill suited. Yet in game these Cruisers will be anything to sniff at if we judge on the uproar their special abilities caused and maybe will cause upon release. It is easy to see why WG came up with air strikes for them : as Cruisers without such powerful ability they would suck in game ! So why this underpowered ship without some compensation for it's lackluster ( PvP ) power vs other ships ? Or planes for that matter, as it is not a powerful AA Cruiser in game either. But that alone does not make an acceptable ship either, as CV are often absent in matches.

100 % accurate... In DD i keep being amazed how easy it is to finish off even the largest most intimidating Tier X BB ( certainly being very close and very small having to look up to those monsterous large things ) when my torpedo's failed to kill it in one go and it still has ~ 1/5th of it HP left. Just a few HE rounds on its superstructure, multiple fires and booom !!!! another kill. Gameplay wise i can understand it......but BB being so weak to rediculous small guns has 0 connection with reality. Heavy Cruisers and SuperCruisers, especially without radar have the same vulnerability. Light Cruisers do not, these eat DD alive with their high ROF and can evade torpedo's much better.

Playing in high tier DD much more in ranked mode* i suddenly realized BB secondaries can be used to surpress DD from taking caps, support allied DD while fighting enemy DD in caps or even force lower HP enemy DD to leave the cap. That is far from a useless weapon system, although it is not lethal to full HP DD used on it's own. Added to the firepower ( and spotting ) of an allied DD it works quite well, it is just a number of additional DD caliber weapons firing on the enemy DD increasing the damage it takes. However they need extended range to keep the BB from being torpedoed. And i guess despite the rediculous low accuracy, buffed accuracy and higher ROF to compensate for low accuracy. And an allied DD as early torpedo warning system between BB and enemy DD. Also near Cruisers are outmatched by short range BB main guns that will not miss them, but obliterate them. * When you are a randoms mode camper that lobs long range shells at other BB, realize that is a loser strategy in other game modes that require much more offensive roles for a BB to win. And ofcourse long range shell lobbing makes secondaries stay inactive thus worthless.

He is right about high tier DD being much harder to kill then mid tier DD though. And not only by CV. But that is part of the game, logical, and not something to complain about. In Tier X CV it is obvious rocket planes shoot around bow facing DD with an annoying V pattern ( nerf ) which forces you to attack them as much broadside as you can or be largely ineffective. But even then they can take a lot of punishment, which leads to the preference of attacking only enemy DD when they are fighting allied DD's : they are outsource spotted, pre-damaged and preoccupied fighting a DD with all ther concentration...so lining up broadside is easy. * And coming up nerf with next patch proof as a longer line up will not change it's effectiveness. This ranked starting at tier VI i was surprised how squishy tier VI DD were compared to tier X ones. So when you get used to that you may experience adapting problems at higher tiers. * Playing DD myself in know being interupted in a thrilling DD vs DD duel by planes rocketting either me or the other DD is not fun. But that is what you get crying nerf as any player will adapt to what still does work well. And besides that opening fire in a cap draws fire from everone and their mother anyways. I do not feel guilty exploding DD in caps...just one of the many shooting at that guy, and a merely matter of who gets the kill.

Bottom line Tiger'59 just lacks power in PvP. You can work it hard and seek out favorable conditions, but it will still be underwhelming compared what you could have done in other ships with the same effort. I hope WG realizes underpowering ships to an extend they cannot be played without being ""carried" by others makes the ships unenjoyable which explains them being unpopular.

In ranked there are definitely more BB and DD then there are Cruisers. And indeed it is painfully visible that non radar Cruisers and large Cruisers suffer from vulnerability to DD just as BB are vulnerable to DD. Having hydro barely changes that for high tier DD with 8+ km range weapons. No need to come closer so without radar ability DD will stay invisible when they can resist milling their guns or have their AA give them away. Also in ranked Cruisers are actually prioritized if they are there. BB's dont want to be fried by them and DD not radared. And CV not shot at with DFAA they often pack. Cruisers surpress DD and CV at cap locations and should therefore be killed quickly. In ranked most players understand that. Surviving enemy BB pose no threat to surviving DD so they are simply not that important to kill 1st. And thus far more survivable then being in a Cruiser. As for "too tough" DD after continuous CV nerfing : for fast kills let an allied DD make contact with an enemy DD. That allied DD will spot for you and also pre-damage that enemy DD. With outside spotting you can line up very accurate strikes that kill perfectly well. This will also be true after the next nerf which will require a longer line up. In fact ( non radar ) support Cruisers often do the exact same thing...let the allied DD draw fire, and then kill the enemy DD....or support Cruisers becoming active behind it. Now many DD are not happy with that tactic as they want you to spot for them.....but it is them causing the CV nerfing. When you have cake, you must eat it.

And that was the part i was missing. I will have a good look into these DD with 100 mm main guns now, inlcuding FenYang. Thank you very much.

But is does not have torpedo's. That in itself is not that bad if you have HE and high ROF so you can light up charging BB's making them reconsider if that is worth 3 fires on their ship. But Tiger does not have that either. There is no reason to not run it down unless it's allies prevent that. And since it is a support Cruiser it is likely exactly that is preventing a rundown charge in most cases. My only beef with it, is that it is very weak on it's own. When it is the only survivor on a flank or last cap it cannot hold it versus asaulting Heavy Cruisers and BB and cannot even slow them down. I think it needs higher ROF to be a bit more attactive with it's light shells. But WG maybe fears it becomes a DD butcher then.

But that has 2 sides also : 1) Enemies look at WR scanning mods, see hidden stats, assume he must suck and will not try to take out that player early*, which they would do if he was blue or purple WR as to prevent this player from wreaking huge havoc to their side. * Especially in CV i focus notable clan tag enemies ( i do not use a WR scanner ) which often throw a huge rage fit as they were prevented to do their stuff as long as they were still floating. The most memorable of them a CC that reported me. This proves to be almost always benificial for my side. 2) Allies deliberatly throwing a match because they look at WR scanning mods and think hidden stats = player weakening their team so they already lost. AFK in protest to "unfair MM" is no an unusual reaction caused by using that WR scanning mod. In both cases that WR scanner is a retared self defeating tool which does not help at the ones using it all. Except if you are the kind of human that aways puts blame for failing on someone else** so it offers relief it was not you.... *

That is why ranked WR is an indicator where you are NOW : it is not dragged down by historic stats - that lets be fair have nothing to do with how you perform NOW - because it resets with every season. With hundreds of battles you cannot have been "carried" that many times, and in ranked with fewer players and often more skilled players that passed some filtering at higher leagues you will have to pull your own weight far more then in massed randoms. In fact randoms stats are far more sketchy : there are more clueless players to club and players use unmoduled, un camoflaged and weak tech tree ships there you can seal club with OP premiums. And knowledge of the game you dinn't have 1s time you cam through there. Stat shamers and their ilk do not want to accept ranked WR, because historic stats dragging down a player suits their agenda better if they disagree with him. So only the worst values count ofcourse, never mind if they are even relavant ( anymore ) That is probably why they all began new accounts themselves or at least have several accounts.Their glorious "unicum"" stats accounts are most telling : have you ever seen weak tech tree ships in those accounts ? Any sign of them struggeling from tier 1 to tier 10 in all kinds of tech tree ships learning their characteristics and introduction of new stuff like hydro, radar, cv at certain tiers ? Or are solely "bokenly removed from shop" ships on the top of theri WR listing ? Ofcourse weak tech tree ships or signs of a struggling learning curve are missing from those "show" accounts. That is what why they are artifically so high WR. But doing the same because some stats shamers bugger you ( mweling over hidden stats is that too ) will cost you dearly : you will lose all premiums, rare permiums you cannot get anymore and have to buy premiums new. And you have to take into account a lot of modern Premium are not OP unlike historic ones. Nice income strategy for WG as well. Maybe that is why they tolerate so many toxic stat shamers on forums, despite them violoting the rules so often. So think hard before you "wipe your shame" as your pride will cost you a lot of real money. And for what exactly ? You will not change as a player at all, only appear to be different. And become allergic to anything that makes you have a learning curve again, such as introduction of new game mechanics.

The problem with hybrid builds on close range optimized ships by WG balancing is they are good at nothing. The main guns on all ships with strong secondaries and torpedos are nerfed. So if you must have a jack off all trades but master of none build and tactics......be my guest. Although you will probably be pretty useless despite high damages that do not mean anything when done to healing BB HP pools. The fault of the scoring system is also it rewards BB doing lots of damage far too much. That promotes cowards that do not risk their HP pool to rack up damage all match long, while their weaker HP pool allies are killed.

I guess it is ok when not having to fight in high tier matches. But it is very weak vs BB that it can only damage by raking their thinner plating parts with chipping AP damage. When i face such a ship in BB or heavy Cruisers were it can be ran down like grass - even ram it in it's cowardly smoke if i must - i will, and not let my superstruture be hosed with chipping damage for minutes. I guess this ship will be even weaker once enemies know it has no hydro and no torpedo's, and cannot burn them down or even citadel them. Only herass them for chipping damage. I have the impression many players still flee ( exactly what they should not do ) from Tiger because they don' know what it is. There is another downside to it as shown in the bottom picture : you hose down a BB for minutes but the kill is snatched by a team mate because you are not able to do enough damage to ensure the kill for yourself. That all said i did kill a DD hiding in smoke and damaged another one that barely escaped as the radar time ended. So it is pretty dangerous to DD despite the AP. So there is it's role : anti smoke hiding DD and Light Cruisers.

A friend of mine was conviced complex armour penetrating calculations are fake. When hitting a ship some RNG result was displayed. So he just shot the reds. IRL that guy is an ICT specialist working for a global renowned ICT company, claiming he knows how that stuff is designed. Then you think he could not do well, but he actually did very well so he was not contradicted by the match results at all. Sometimes it even appears he is right with rediculous low accuracy guns like on German and (new) Italian BB or with full salvos of heavy AP actually hitting exactly where they should hit for minimal damage instead of a citadel. Eventually he ragequit over New Orleans exploding every time an enemy fired on him, as "RNG was rigged" for that ship. Maybe a funny or facepalm story, but it explains perfectly how the game is friendly to players that are oblivious to complex mechanics for a very long time up the tiers. You CAN do very well just shooting the reds. I think it is fully possible when you climb 1 tech tree to reach tier X that way and still be oblivious to complex game mechanics. And i also think WG wants it this way : there would be little money in only a handfull of "gamewise educated unicums" playing the game.