Pukovnik7

Of course submarines are not invulnerable to ASW, otherwise they wouldn't be vulnerable at all. And if you mean to say that ASW can be air launched, there are carriers and Dutch cruisers in the game. None of which require very accurate aiming, though at least Dutch airstrike is easy to evade. And sure, ASW may be kinda-sorta area of effect, but submarine has very low detection range when surfaced, extremely low when submerged, and doesn't going to maximum depth make it literally invulnerable? You need to screw up really badly in order to get spotted. Italian DD's admittedly major advantage of crawling smoke is balanced out by absolutely atrocious surface detection range when outside the smoke and by relatively short duration of said smoke, which forces extremely careful engagements (which, granted, can look like YOLO-ing from the opposite side). Some of the Italian DDs have surface detection range greater than gun range. Submarine does not have these disadvantages: even surfaced, submarine is stealthier than most if not all destroyers. Precisely. In fact, if you reduce submarine spotting, that would solve a good portion of issues. Nerf submarine spotting and remove guided torpedoes, and they may even be... not good addition to the game, maybe, but at least not atrocious. 1. If enemy destroyer is good, you only know that it really is destroyer spotting you if it has revealed itself. There are cases where you don't even see enemy DDs until halfway through the game, especially if they are Japanese torpedo boats that don't really do well in gunfights. SO yeah, that suggestion can work, but how often? 2. Yeah, that is obvious. And annoying. Basically, ping is as much of a weapon as a torpedo... well, at least nowadays it is possible to avoid torpedoes even without blowing DCP to clear the ping a lot of the time. 3. See 1. They don't teleport, but if they survive to later in the game... well, I've seen subs chase CVs. That was fun: mutual cancer removal. Point is, more time has passed, more uncertainty there is. Especially since many sub players cannot really be predicted as they often don't really act logically. Yeah, that is what I do when possible. Yeah, that would work. There is difference between "doing well" and "basically cheating". People would say that a lone battleship going against a stealthy torpedo destroyer is a very bad idea... and it is. But even the times when I was forced to do that, it was never frustrating. Sure, it was difficult, and usually failed - but I never got frustrated the way I do against submarines. Which suggests there is some fundamental difference between them. Torps, smoke, hydro and radar don't change that much. All surface ships are vulnerable to direct gun fire unless in cover. All surface ships can be spotted at a distance sufficient enough that they cannot sneak between islands if said area is being covered by a scout destroyer, but have to instead seek another path. Destroyers also have low HP, and are vulnerable to having modules disabled even by near misses. And when spotted, literally everybody will shoot at a destroyer. All the while having a far greater detection range than a submarine. Fundamentally you are wrong in literally everything. Firstly, submarines are not even ships, they are boats. Specifically, submersible boats. Secondly, carriers and submarines have absolutely nothing in common with surface ships in terms of their utilization. A surface vessel has weapons with a limited range, which are point-and-click, wholly dependant on aiming, and are either slow or else reveal ship's position when used. Carriers have aircraft which can be utilized without putting ship at risk, and submarines have guided torpedoes which also do not really reveal submarine's position. Surface ships are vulnerable to a plethora of heterogenous threats. Carriers are basically invulnerable thanks to staying far back, and submarines can avoid most weapons by submerging. Thirdly, you have no clue what you are talking about. It doesn't matter whether a carrier has been built from the keel up, converted from a cruiser, or an oil tanker. Carrier is just a platform - its weapons are aircraft. By contrast, a battleship, a cruiser and a destroyer are weapons systems - everything they have impacts their performance, whereas for carrier, only aircraft really matter (at least in WOWS, where carriers don't have to sail for thousands of miles to get to their area of operations and rarely face air attacks). Lastly, no, destroyer is not "more alike with a submarine then with a battleship". Battleship is a surface warship whose main weapons are its guns. Destroyer is a surface warship whose main weapons are its guns. Submarine is a submersible whose main weapon is its stealth, and relies on torpedoes to deal damage. You want submarines and do not want to play obsolete ships? Why are you even playing this game, then? Go play Cold Waters. Unlike WoWS submarine gameplay, that stuff is actually fun. LOL. Not being detected = literally invulnerable.

https://historyandwar.org/2022/08/21/wreck-of-sms-kaiser-franz-joseph/ Kaiser Franz Joseph is an Austro-Hungarian cruiser, whose wreck sits at the sandy floor at depth of 40 meters within Boka Kotorska, between Croatian Prevlaka and Montenegrin shore. This is an issue because the border between Croatia and Montenegro is still not defined and so is even today in the process of being solved, a process that will last for years. While Kaiser is well within the Croatian territorial waters by any logical demarcation, agreement also says that Croatian and Montenegrin subjects have the right of unlimited sailing through the area. Diving is also unrestricted. On the peninsula of Oštra there is an Austro-Hungarian fort, which will become a naval museum. History and Conditions of Sinking Full name of the ship was SMS (Seiner Majestat Schiff) Kaiser Franz Josef I. Kaiser was an armored cruiser of the Austro-Hungarian Navy, built in the Trieste shipyard Stabilimento Tecnico Triestino from 1888. to 1890., with launch being in 1889. She was also the lead ship of her class, which had only one other ship – SMS Kaiserin Elisabeth. Kaiser was a very large ship, some 104 meters long, with a beam of nearly 15 meters and almost six meter draft. She was equipped with two triple expansion steam engines with 5000 hp each, which allowed her the speed of 19 knots, which was very good speed for that time. Bunkers contained 660 tons of coal, which allowed her the economical range of 3200 nautical miles. Crew numbered some 400 sailors and officers. Armament consisted of eight 15 cm cannons, two of which had longer barrels, and 16 cannons of 4,7 cm caliber. She also had three torpedo tubes. Thickness of armor was 56 mm on the deck, and 90 mm around the main turrets. SMS Kaiser Franz Joseph underway Before the First World War, Kaiser had spent time sailing all around the world on show the flag and other missions, sailing through Atlantic and to Southeastern Asia. At the beginning of the century her armament was changed slightly, and she spent almost the entire First World War in Boka Kotorska as a guard ship, a part of the Second Coastal Ironclad Squadron. There are also unconfirmed reports of Kaiser shelling Montenegrin positions on Lovćen. During the attack by Austro-Hungarian forces on Montenegro on 8th, 9th and 10th January 1916., Kaiser Joseph shelled enemy positions at Valište. For this reason, two cannons were removed from the sunk ship and taken to Cetinje where they are today. At first they had been placed near the Blue Castle on Cetinje, where they were during the Socialist Republic of Montenegro. With the arrival of so-called “democracy and multi-party system” and declaration of an eco-state, cannons unexplicably became problematic and so were moved to meadow near the Military Home. No plaque or designation had ever been placed there, and over time vandals had carried off whatever they could have. Franz Joseph’s story ends at the end of the war. Austro-Hungarian government had ordered the fleet to be transferred to the newly-formed State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs. However, the Paris peace conference decided that former Austro-Hungarian navy will be split between the victorious imperial powers – France, Italy and Great Britain, while the newly formed Kingdom SHS (Yugoslavia) had only received a minor portion of warships. All ships of the Imperial Navy that had been in Boka were disarmed, with all the munitions being transferred to Kaiser Franz Joseph, which had been assigned to France. Due to suddenly highly explosive natureof the ship, decision was made to anchor her outside Boka so as not to endanger the populace. Massively overloaded ship was tied to an anchor buoy, but a hurricane-strength southern wind in October 1919. causes the ship to flood and sink. In the decades afterward, cargo (mostly munitions) had been gradually raised from the wreck, as were both bronze propellers and both bow cannons. Unfortunately, ship had suffered from theft, and also detonations from the explosive-based fishing. Among stolen things are letters that had spelled ship’s name on the stern. Wreck lies on the left side, with deck thus being nearly vertical. Bow is turned towards Oštra and stern towards Boka. Maximum depth of the seabed is 42 meters, but ship had sunk deeply into the sludge and so deepest part of the ship is likely 47 meters. The shallowest parts of the wreck, in the middle of the right side, are at 30-odd meters of depth. Large gun casemates can be seen in the middle of the ship, but these are empty. Right bow anchor is still in its place, but bow itself is deformed due to impact of the sinking. Main deck, fully armored, is still there but has only the traces of its gun turrets. The ship is colonized by sponges, especially its aft mast. At the stern itself should be bronze letters, but today only ANZ J can be read. Hull has several holes, made by “Brodospas” divers for the purpose of removing important artefacts from within the ship. Tactical-Technical Characteristics Type: cruiser Sister Ship: Empress Elizabeth (Kaiserine Elizabeth) Shipyard: Stabilimento Technico Triestino, San Roco, Trieste Serial Number: 233 Keel Laid Down: 3. 1. 1888. Launch: 18. 5. 1890. Trials: 20. 5. 1890. Entrance Into Fleet: 2. 6. 1890. Displacement: 4030 tons Length: 98 meters Width: 14,8 meters Draft: 5,5 meters Speed: 19 knots Propulsion: produced in San Andrea 1888/89, four boilers with 24 fireboxes; work pressure of 9 atmospheres, two horizontal triple-expansion engines, two three-bladed propellers of 4420 mm diameter Propulsion output: 2 x 4900 horse power Coal bunker capacity: 614 tons of stone coal, 632 cubic meters of pressed coal (briquettes) Range: 3200 nautical miles at cruise speed Armor: Bow plating: 38 mm Deck and bridge armor: 56 mm, 90 mm around main turrets Crew: 420 officers and sailors Weapons: 2 x 15 cm L/40 cannons 6 x 15 cm L/35 cannons 16 x 4,7 cm cannons 3 x 45 cm torpedo tubes Building cost: 5 146 884 kronen (crowns)

Slow speed, yes. Or maybe you don't understand the purpose of a game. Surface ship captain, maybe. Submarines don't require skills beyond positioning. Are you confused or just not reading what I wrote? Submarines, by themselves, are easy to deal with. Only times when they are a threat is when you run across one and end up in a bad position by accident. There is no skill involved there, just luck. Carriers and submarines are not, but I guess you wouldn't be opposed if we got Zeppelins, ICBMs and magic pixie dust into the game because it is all fundamentally same. What is so same about submarines? Other ships cannot dive, submarines can. Other ships usually have a detection penalty when they attack, submarines don't. Other ships expose themselves to a counterattack when they fire their main weapons, submarine does only if submarine player is an idiot (luckily, most submarine players are idiots... not a surprise, submarines are a class specially designed for them). No other ship gets a guided weapon with a packaged free distraction tool with two second reload. And most importantly, no other ship can reduce its detection range to 2 km with no indication where it is.

Remove guided torpedoes but more importantly remove submarines' spotting ability when submerged - and make submarine take about a minute to surface or submerge. For reference, even a crash dive in a World War 2 submarine took some 30 seconds.

When will you be removing submarines? I just had three in a game per side.

You clearly don't understand the implications of submarines not being ships. Or what "shaping the battlefield" means. Because battleships reveal their exact position when they fire, and make themselves vulnerable to counterfire (this also applies to destroyers, BTW). Because battleships are the least stealthy ships in the game and can be noticed from miles out, while submarines are the most stealthy ships in the game and their exact location isn't known even when they attack. Because battleships cannot sneak past the entire enemy team to attack them from the rear or set up perfect crossfires with their teammates. And frankly, battleships' effective range should not exceed ten kilometers, but that is just my opinion. Submarines have no such disadvantages. Destroyers however are still vulnerable, with comparatively massive detection range compared to a submarine (surfaced or submerged), and can be attacked with line-of-sight weapons such as torpedoes (and guns, to an extent) even when in smoke, making them massively more vulnerable than submarines. They cannot submerge and get within or sail through the enemy fleet - they will get destroyed if they try. They cannot "dolphine jump" in order to spot the enemy with basically no repercussions. I want spotting nerfed because I want more engagements to happen within the 5 - 10 kilometer range. Submarines have the exact opposite effect on the game - even more camping since they started appearing in the numbers. Sign of sub being present is usually "I just saw a spread of torpedoes heading my way". When submarine is around, every single position is a potential crossfire. Much like with carriers. You try tanking enemy battleship fire? Congratulations, here is a spread of submarine torpedoes heading your way. Turn to avoid OHK torpedo salvo? Congratulations, you just exposed your broadside to a bunch of enemy battleships. Staying close to the shore? Sub just moves to the side that is not close to the shore and you have to speed up and maneuver to avoid torpedoes. Assuming you have time to speed up in the first place. Not all maps have adequate islands. Some maps are simply too bloody open. And when there are islands, "staying close to shores" has been my default since forever. So I really don't get what more I can do? Submarines have lower concealment range than destroyers, "mehehe invulnerability" instead of the destroyer smokescreen, and are bloody distracting with their pings which have no limits. Give them historical speeds, limit their ability to spot when underwater and remove homing torpedoes, and we may speak of balance... And again, I do all of that. But submarine has extreme effect on how the game is played, and that can last for a long time because it is no easy to spot or kill. And again, there is an issue of lack of islands on many maps. "Turn / change speed behind islands" is difficult to do when there are wide open spaces between them. Submarines are basically a gambling mechanic. You run into one at a good time, you get an easy kill. You run into one at a bad time, enemy gets an easy kill. I guess that is why WarGambling loves them. And again: average sub player is not a threat. Mostly because they are utter tools seeking an easy way to farm damage (much like your average carrier player). I don't care about averages, beyond the fact that submarines are annoying and make games more boring. But when somebody knows what he is doing with a sub, none of what you have written applies. Thing is, destroyers, cruisers and battleships are all fundamentally same. Sure, they require cooperation between each other to be fully effective, but all of them are surface ships, all of them rely on aimed dumb-fire weapons, all of them reveal their position when they use long-range weapons, and all of them require considerable skill to use effectively. And yeah, that second paragraph is a massive issue.

Tier 5 to Tier 7 can be rough, but I never had that many issues facing Tier 9 in a Tier 7. Tier 9 to Tier 11 is, from what I've seen so far, worse than both.

Have you ever met a triple Yamagiri division? 20221112_225417_PGSB109-Friedrich-der-Grosse_50_Gold_harbor.wowsreplay

I'm from Split as well. And I'm getting her as soon as she's in the tree. Even if I have to grind like crazy.

Well, I don't. Game should be fun first and foremost. Problem is that a good submarine is like a self-positioned minefield. You don't know is there, then you run across it and then you are dead - either the submarine kills you or you have to make evasive maneuver that lets its teammates kill you. Yeah, sure, chasing down a submarine can be fun... until you end up out of position and get either killed or useless to your team. And if you don't chase it down, submarine just stays there until you die. And unlike destroyers, submarine can easily escape. I know all of that, and I do all of that, whenever possible. But again: submarine on its own is not a problem. They are easy to kill, actually. Problem is that submarines are a) bloody annoying and b) limit the counterplay options against other ships. Which then makes a lot of people stay at long range and snipe even more than usual. Also, most submarine players are idiots (because frankly, I don't think anyone sane would want to play submarines). Well played submarine however is a massive problem.

Oh, I know they are easy to kill. And air strike in fact is easy to avoid if you know what you are doing - it is not a threat at all. What I meant is that airstrike gimmick, much like submarines, has nothing to do in a game about naval warfare of World Wars period... especially since Dutch cruisers got everything else nerfed because of the gimmick in question. Well played submarine? Not really, or at least I don't know how. Maybe one-on-one, but not in an actual fight. So what I got from this is: submarines are not a problem, unless you encounter them in an actual battle. Considering that we don't have a mode which is solely surface ships vs subs, that doesn't seem very relevant.

Simple: all of them are surface ships and have the same limitations as other surface ships. If you know what you are doing, you can exploit that. Well, except the Dutch cruiser: that stuff should be illegal.

Yeah, that absolutely makes no sense, I agree. But that part you and @159Hunter quoted was in response to FlyingBender's post about his clanmate, who did have connection issues. Hence my example.

That is because it is for the short periods of time. I also alt tab frequently, mostly to write down notes (just how my idiotic brain works... start doing something and then, "hey, do you remember that thing you meant to look up for your article that you couldn't remember at all half an hour ago... here it is!"). But that is few seconds while I write down stuff, and then it's back to the game. I got inacitivity penalties due to connection problems, due to game crashing... thing is, how is game supposed to know whether inactivity is justified? So I see no reason to complain about that.

Yeah, I uninstalled it today. Installed World of Tanks instead, though I will see how frequently I will be playing that game either. I think I will mostly be writing instead.

"Those who want the subs removed completely" and "those who want them isolated in their own game mode" are basically saying the same thing: submarines do not fit the game, and WG had been trying to fit the square peg into the round hole. In reality, 87% of respondents are against submarines.

And when did I say that I YOLO? Yes, I often do overextend - but that is because at many high tier maps, anything closer than maximum gun range is basically too close. Yes, I will push into secondary range - when I have the opportunity to do so. I won't do that if it is obvious suicide. Problem is that by the time there is an opportunity to push, game had already been decided by destroyer duels in the middle while rest of the team had to sit uselessly outside the effective gun range. Because maps are too darn open and so gameplay meta at high tiers is pathetic and pathetically stale. EDIT: And no, you don't "know how to play a battleship". Your stats at high tier for battleships are in fact similar to mine, so stop playing smart.

Yes, because watching your destroyers get slaughtered and losing the game while you are camping near the map border is oh so smart thing to do... Yeah, I really hope I never get you on my team. Especially when I'm playing a destroyer. Battleship has high HP pool for a reason. If you have any heals left by the end of the game, you have either just beaten up a team of absolute potatoes, or you have no clue how to play a battleship.

Max range is definition of camping. For me, if enemy is outside my gun's torpedo / secondary battery range, I'm doing something wrong.

Yes. I always blame MM whenever I get a streak of luck - be it good or bad luck. Because, frankly, I'm an average player so I should basically be winning half the battles. If I win 75% battles in a day, or lose 75% battles in a day - it is MM. That is literally the worst thing you can do...

Eh, I don't use any mods. I do that on beginning of the game. In fact, game has remembered to turn flak off automatically, so I have to turn it on when I play battleship. And in any case: it is not air attacks themselves that are the problem. It is the fact that they force a maneuver while I am being permaspotted. Which means that so long as CV is local, I can't really do anything other than try to kill other destroyers. Problem with AAA - especially destroyer AA - in this game is that it is so useless that I basically have to wait for the planes to automatically despawn, because AA has no hope of clearing them out itself. I somehow have to doubt that claim. Also, IJN torpedo destroyers should be easier to play than gunboats when CV is around - you have better stealth to begin with, which means it is easier to hide from the aircraft and also that CV player has less time to set up the attack. Not sure how it works at higher tiers, as I don't play torp destroyers at mid tiers (I find them too boring unless I can regularly go hull-to-hull with the target).

I am aware of that. But fact is that CVs have by far the greatest impact on the game outcome, just by virtue of being able to cover nearly the entire map while spotting targets for the team. A destroyer player cannot rely on the enemy team being crap: sure, if I notice nobody is shooting at me even when I'm spotted, I'll just go and annoy CV by dodging until he goes away. But you can't always know that the enemy team is crap early in the game. And this means that mere presence of CV and fact that I may be spotted can heavily limit my options. A merely "not crap tier" CV can neutralize a destroyer even while doing zero damage. And a good CV player (not a crap tier one like me) will be able to do damage. And destroyers have no armor and a lot of damageable subsystems, which means that damage done by CV can be far more significant than just what the damage numbers indicate. So saying that "you have very small to no influence when you do yourself no damage at all"... sorry, that is just bollocks. I had been focused by garbage CVs quite a few times, and despite them doing no damage, they still had a lot of impact. Sure, if the enemy CV can do spotting and damage, you are definitely at disadvantage if you can do only spotting... but that doesn't mean it is useless. CVs have more capability to shape the battlefield than any other ship class, even when they do seemingly no damage. Spotting is the most obvious thing, but not the only one. I've seen ships avoid CV drops completely, only to get obliterated because avoiding the CV forced them to show broadside, out in the open - and they didn't know they were doing that because the enemy ship had been unspotted. It happened to me quite a few times as well, and it is not always possible to find decent cover so you can have your "tortured by CV" session in peace. Something like this won't show up on CV player's stats, but does that mean CV had no impact? Definitely not. And all the while, there is absolutely nothing surface ship can do except waiting for the CV planes to despawn. Especially at lower tiers with AA that is completely useless instead of just mostly useless. That is why I brought up my own CV experience: I am absolute crap at playing CVs, yet I never felt any sense of danger even when I stumbled blindly into AA bubbles of several ships. These AA bubbles and flak? They never did anything. Fact that I did as little damage as I did was solely on me having no clue (or interest in learning) how to play CVs. AA and flak? Could not have been there to begin with. Literally only defense they provided lied in the fact that flak clouds would occasionally obstruct the target. And now some crybabies want to remove that? Sail off.

I have over 1700 games in a destroyer, albeit only at Tier 7 and lower. Trust me, I am intimately familiar with CVs. In fact, CVs are pretty much the only reason why I am yet to go above Tier 7 with any destroyer lines.

Being able to heavily impact the outcome of a battle at literally no risk to myself. Main impact that carrier has is spotting, which is something stats don't track. And since I knew I was crap at aiming planes, I mostly just flew around and kept enemy DDs spotted. And I never bothered to learn how to do damage in a CV, because being literally invulnerable is not something that appeals to me. So I just quit playing the shithead class.

I played a total of five games in a carrier and quit because I felt like I was playing the game on a cheat mode.