Pukovnik7

Of course it is happening, when the people who play the game these days simply do not care about playing, but do it because they have nothing better to do.

Bolded part is actually what is the main problem I have with submarines... but it made me realize that the main issue with submarine and anti-submarine gameplay may be aircraft carriers. Long version here, since it should be in the CV thread, but the main reason why BBs snipe is because CV threat cannot be countered by angling - and you need room to maneuver. You also need room to maneuver against the submarines, but there islands are actually useful. Still, it is a bit of an issue with submarines as well, though they are vulnerable to islands so... Thanks. Yeah, but submarine player has ability to do that anyway. When I played a sub for these few games (haven't had time to play WoWS at all last few days), I usually went for unguided torpedoes. Or I'd launch torpedoes and only ping at the last moment, or if I saw I misjudged the aiming. Yeah, running into islands was probably what taught me not to stay in the binocular way all the time. Agreed.

That would be the best for the game, but we all know it will not happen. Because if CVs get unpopular, then WarGaming will artificially buff the popularity by making CVs even stronger. Which in turn means CVs will always be overpowered because they are just a boring class to play.

Speed is important because a fast ship could force the submarine into position where it will be spotted. I do that often when hunting torpedo destroyers - they are stealthier than gunboats I tend to play, so I need to use the terrain and map borders to keep them away and maybe even spot and kill them. Engine boost is an excellent tool. Of course, submarine does have the advantage of being able to submerge, but it can still be proximity spotted unless it goes to maximum depth. And I don't know why, but while playing subs and cruisers I have had several games where it was only battleships, cruisers, a couple of submarines and maybe a CV or two. No destroyers. So while I agree that spotting by myself is not usually important in a battleship or even a cruiser, it can be in some cases. Agreed. Agreed, though I commonly change heading and maybe even speed after each ping precisely for that reason. There were also situations where I'd launch torpedoes dumbfire, like a destroyer, or launch them dumbfire and only ping when they approached the target. Agreed. I do think those would be good changes. Agreed, though many ships have only two drops and since submarine can move in essentially four directions (straight forward, left, right, reverse) getting a drop is essentially a gamble. I often drop ASW airstrike behind the ping though as I have noticed many submarine players tend to slowly reverse while pinging. Agreed, though I will note that destroyer torpedoes - due to having to be launched from longer range - are more likely to be thrown off by simply zig-zagging. Hence why I think submarines should have only unguided torpedoes and use submerged stealth to compensate for small number of launches. Yeah, staying in open water is definitely a problem. I'd still say we need more maps like New Dawn, Neighbors and Land of Fire, as lack of cover on many maps teaches people to stay in the open water and far in the rear. Rather than instructions and tips, I'd say we need tutorial. It seems WG did introduce tutorial map? Not sure how good it is. And rather than forcing repairs, it seems pinged ships regularly turn away, speeding towards the border in fear. Personally, I tend to turn in, but even so unless I am in a destroyer, pings are rather unsettling. Yeah, they are. Though I did find a submarine easier to play than a DD.

@Figment So instead of playing against submarines only, I started playing submarines as well. It is more of what I remember from the test server: repetitive, boring gameplay. More importantly, very little risk so long as you don't misposition. Anyway, preliminary observations: submarine can do 20 knots underwater, so I was basically under no threat from majority of Tier VI and lower battleships even so, I kept primarily on the surface, using diving time only as an escape mechanism I can easily see a destroyer coming, so not much threat there so long as I keep an eye out; even if it is one of stealthy DDs, I can easily dive and evade airstrike can be seen from afar and can be easily evaded, especially if submarine is on surface ability to ping in 360 circle is overpowered; if I sail side-on at the target and ping, ASW strike and any sort of return fire will miss as most people assume pinging is done in the direction of movement (due to torpedo tubes being on bow and stern). "Leading the target" is irrelevant. I can easily play "peek a boo" with ASW drops by pinging, pinging again, and then changing the direction of movement so that ASW drop will miss. Most I ever got was moderate damage. literally the only threat are the islands and the concentrated masses of ASW-airstrike capable ships; destroyers would be dangerous but they cannot reach me for fear of being shot up. Enemy submarines are also a moderate threat. submarine does not nead to do damage to literally collapse the entire enemy flank: just staying on surface and spotting targets is a very effective strategy even only pinging will keep enemy surface ships away, in some cases even pushing them to the border for submarine, pings are more important weapons than torpedoes using damage to extrapolate how dangerous submarines are is completely worthless So this: Is wrong, and this: Is correct. Lack of damage, in my experience of playing the sub so far, is mostly due to enemy ships simply running away. When enemies run away, destroyer can either chase and flank them, or farm damage with guns. Submarine can do neither, most of the time. But relying on damage to extrapolate influence that submarine has on the battle is, as I have said, completely useless.

Pretty much. Thankfully, my sanity has apparently decided to go into early retirement since they brought back the submarines.

I am explaining you that good portion of your advice simply doesn't work for me, because I have tried it. Either you are failing at actually explaining stuff, are doing something completely different from what you are describing, or else I am failing at explaining what an issue is. And then there is the fact that you focus on killing subs when I have already told you that killing them is literally the only thing about subs I don't have a problem with. What I have a problem with is everything else. Which so far you have ignored while potinficating about how subs are easy to kill. Which, again: not the point, man. What I do when facing a destroyer in the cap - especially if it is a torpedo destroyer - is that I try to keep in island between me and the cap, and then I round the island, engage the engine boost and charge into the cap. So "boldly and openly" part at least is not correct. And even that I do only until I have chased him out of the cap. I don't know, maybe I suck at explaining stuff. If you are interested, I have my two last destroyer replays attached. Why I would need to mention it? It is obvious that announcing approach from the beginning is dumb, especially if you are hunting something stealthier than you. And I already mentioned before that lack of islands is a major problem when facing subs. OK. That is pretty much what I do anyway. Again: attacks by sub are not an issue by itself. Torpedoes are easy enough to evade unless I misposition (and even that only when I'm playing a battleship). Issue is interplay of elements: fact that submarine can spot a destroyer from beyond its distance, and the fact that submarine itself cannot be spotted at all when it is at maximum depth, meaning it can simply dive and slip below if it feels it is in danger. And if it launches torpedoes then they do present a threat which needs to be focused on and evaded. I have had situations where submarine would dive to the maximum depth, slip past the entire team by basically blind navigation, and then pop up to enter the base cap, or else spot everybody from behind the team, or set up a crossfire. Granted, these were rare, and I am yet to check out whether they can be done still, but... Essentially, the main problem with submarine is the same as that with a carrier: a good submarine player can keep people spotted, and set up a crossfire whenever, wherever. And once that happens, you have a problem even if you manage to evade all the torpedoes. Then there is the fact that it is another heterogenous threat, which generally means more passive gameplay for most people. In such conditions, it literally doesn't matter how much damage a sub does or doesn't do. From what I remember, isn't a submarine at maximum depth invulnerable to everything, or they changed something lately? And that again comes down to islands. Yes, when there are islands around, catching a sub is not too difficult. But I also have to protect friendly ships from enemy DD, which often requires staying in open or semi-open water so as to prevent him from slipping by. Which in turn prevents the sort of ambushing you describe. As I have explained before, and what you have ignored: it is not about submarines themselves, but how they interact with other classes. Or: C. It has slipped by the map border and is flanking the team or even located behind it. I have had a couple of situations like that. Some subs even go after carriers. And yes, submarine can be killed in such a way, if it allows itself to be caught. I really wanted to grind Le Fantasque, Adriatico and North Carolina, but I guess I'll have to play submarines lot more than I do right now (couple of games in U-69). DD in smoke cannot spot for his team, and is likely to eat a bunch of torpedoes from either enemy DD or a CV, mobile or not. I generally do not sit inside the smoke unless I absolutely have to, or else I'm in a German destroyer with hydro and all enemies have been spotted anyway. True, but it is not just the subs. People moving back is in fact a logical response created by a significant number of heterogenous threats, not subs specifically. Ideally, game would have battleships, cruisers and destroyers, and nothing else. But when you add carriers and now submarines into the mix, people - especially new players - find it difficult to deal with it. Use island for a cover? You don't have speed or room to avoid a carrier strike. Stay at speed? Unless islands are really dense, you are at significant risk of getting shot at broadside. And so on and so forth. And natural response is to put distance from the threat. So no, it is not logical consequence of subs. It is however a logical consequence of there being five different classes of ships. When you are attacked by a carrier, you want to be away from islands to have freedom of maneuver without potentially running aground (especially with there now being underwater terrain). But as you yourself pointed out, best counter to subs is to stay close to islands. So if you have carriers and subs both, you are basically in a Scylla or Charybdis situation. Damned if you do, damned if you don't... although submarines at least are a lesser evil compared to carriers. OK. I wasn't talking about their combat ability or WR. They are a pile of crap in terms of their influence on the game. I mean, you have a class whose entire gimmick is sitting behind an island and spamming aircraft without ever moving or shooting their guns. Yeah, great design there, WeeGee. 20221203_211958_PASD005-Farragut-1944_20_NE_two_brothers.wowsreplay 20221203_224900_PGSD106-Ernst-Gaede_17_NA_fault_line.wowsreplay

Play destroyers in Random and watch karma go back up.

Gaede may be my new favorite bote...

It is significantly different. I play gunboat destroyers and I generally don't have any issues hunting down and killing torpedo boat destroyers. Why? Because a) they know they cannot win a gunfight against me, b) they cannot make themselves invulnerable to either my guns or torpedoes, c) they generally don't have the concealment necessary to stay in the cap while being chased. So I basically wait a bit for the support to catch in and then go in and contest. Submarine? They a) can win a fight against a destroyer because they can attack from range whereas destroyer cannot, b) can make itself invulnerable by diving and c) has far better concealment than even torpedo destroyers when surfaced. So unless submarine significantly misplays, ambushing it is impossible, and unlike torpedo destroyers I find I am not enough of a threat to keep submarine away simply by placing myself between it and the ships I am screening. And submarine can submerge, which means that I cannot simply maneuver to push it into position where I will be able to spot and kill it, the way I can do it with torpedo destroyers. So yes, bolded part is completely innacurate. Uh... you mean, two kilometers? Because submarine can dive literally whenever. And see above about the lack of ranged options against submarines on destroyers. And even submerged submarine is generally fast enough to see you coming and escape. Smoke is basically a replacement for islands. If there is an island close enough to do what you are suggesting, then you don't need smokescreen at all, unless you are in a carrier game. And no, I never sit inside a smokescreen, unless a carrier is present. Smoke is best used to break line of sight to get away - but against submarine, even that is of limited utility. And if you have both carriers and submarines in the game... yeah. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. And as I said, not all maps have good islands. I said annoying, not dangerous. Yes, they are easy to dodge, but pings are bloody annoying. Also, you keep forgetting that this is not about "destroyer vs submarine" in a vacuum. Even just dodging torpedoes can be extremely dangerous when you are being spotted by the sub. In the end, submarines are just another tool to keep people camping at the backline. And again, I do all of that when possible. Generally, I approach submarine at an angle or in a spiral, precisely so that I don't get a bunch of torps to the nose. But see above: it is never about submarine alone. If submarine couldn't share its spotting data with other ships, then it would be no problem. But since it can... I have done that, and it usually doesn't work at killing the sub, just at keeping it away. And if I am limited to being near an island, I cannot properly spot or kill enemy destroyers, which just shows that measuring submarine's influence by damage numbers and how easy it is to kill in some conditions is load of garbage. Oh, don't start me on Dutch cruisers. You know, saying "this pile of crap doesn't stink as much as that other pile of crap" does nothing to prove that other pile isn't actually a pile of crap.

And again you miss the point. It isn't just about how good sub is at killing stuff. It is how good it is at shaping a battlefield. When sub is present, destroyers cannot contest the cap properly because they will get permaspotted and killed. Smoke is useless because you'll get pinged and torpedoed. This: is precisely where submarines are most dangerous at. Sure, homing torpedoes are annoying as hell. But it is the submarine's ability to spot with impunity that is the main issue with the [edited] class.

Yeah, even from what little I have played of the subs, I have realized - combined with my experiences against them - that they are basically a minefield. If you come across one, you are in trouble. Still, I have had trouble with their rather limited mobility. So from my experience at least, submarines are the ultimate RNG, and shouldn't be able to regularly get high XP.

Keep in mind that capping and IIRC spotting also contribute to damage, and well... to spot things in a sub, you don't need to do anything beyond dive when you are in danger of getting detected.

How about giving surface ships their own mode, so that two cancers can have at each other without bothering anyone else?

Fortunately, majority of submarine players spend their time with glue. Sniffing glue, eating glue, drinking glue, having sexual intercourse with glue... problem is precisely that submarines are BALANZZEED around these glue obsessed specials, and so end up being completely broken in hands of somebody who is a) competent and b) interested in playing a sub. I don't play submarines myself (yet), BUT what I have noticed: good submarine players will rarely or never ping before torping. Pings are purely psychological weapon, to distract the target and make less experienced / more idiotic players waste their damage control party. In other words, do not torp unless you know that target will not be able to evade even unguided torps. And with 2 km detection range, getting necessarily close should be easy. Also bolded: that is actually where submarines are most useful at, and also most annoying. A dolphining submarine can keep everybody permaspotted with no danger to itself. Cue a backline camping snoozefest of a match.

In addition to submarine cancer, did anybody notice how many Chkalovs there tend to be in battles? Not sure if it is just me, but last dozen games or so I have seen maybe two or three carriers that are not Chkalovs in Tier VII-VIII games. It seems to me that this CV is balanced around having multiple strikes like normal carriers, yet dumps entire squadron's payload at once. And since CV players by and large do not care about teamplay, Chkalov is basically the most popular CV nowadays.

From what I have noticed, you cannot. Maybe I'm wrong, but from what I have noticed the ping indicator, while generally reliable, is not always located where the sub actually is. As for torps, they seem to become visible only at a certain distance from the ship, so the point at which you see the torpedoes is not necessarily the point where submarine actually is.

I know submarine may still be hit while it is submerging, but I never realized that it can be hit while at periscope depth? I find games where CVs are present both frustrating and boring at the same time, but well, this is topic about submarines. Thing with Satsuma is that while it may be OP, its mechanics are still fundamentally the same as any other surface ship. Agreed. But it seems that natural reaction to large amount of heterogeneous threats is "run the [edited]away"...

Split all major modes (Randoms, COOP and Operations) into two categories: one that is only for surface ships, and one that includes carriers and submarines. And a few more things: https://historyandwar.org/2021/11/25/how-to-fix-the-world-of-warships/

I also like to sink them and have a lot of fun hunting them, yet I still absolutely hate the impact they have on the game and gameplay, and wish they would disappear. In other words, I would LOVE AND ADORE submarines... if they were a) designed historically and b) present in their own game mode. This? This is BS. EDIT 21.11.: Yuro posted this on Twitter, and it is just retarded. For reference, in real life, surface ships would sink submarines by ramming them. Destroyers were vulnerable somewhat to being rammed by submarines due to thin skin while being "only" twice as heavy (U-190 had displacement of 1144 t surfaced, Blyskawica for comparison had a displacement of 2043 t), but a heavy cruiser (or God forbid, a battleship) would simply run submarine Nevertheless, USS Borie for example rammed a submarine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Borie_(DD-215) Neither vessel was sunk.

As @NewHorizons_1 said, play Scenarios or Tier 4. Other than that, just clench your butt and take it.

DD in a smoke is ridiculously easy to hit if it is shooting guns. Even if it is not, so long as you have torpedoes it is not much of an issue. For submarine yeah, it can be easy to hit if it is dumb enough to constantly ping with sonar. If it is not, well... I played subs on the testing server and when they first came to the game proper, and provided feedback both to the company and on my blog: https://historyandwar.org/2021/09/05/initial-thoughts-on-submarines-in-world-of-warships/ https://historyandwar.org/2021/10/24/how-submarines-additionally-ruin-the-world-of-warships/ I have not played them significantly since, because a) they are boring class and b) I am not a sadist. Same reason why I don't play carriers. I want to have fun, and I want other people to have fun. So yeah. You are correct when looking at it purely factually, but can you really blame people for not wanting to be assholes? (That being said, I am looking at playing both submarines and CVs once I finish my Veneto - Amalfi - Cuniberti grind). And as I said, personally, I don't find submarines that difficult to kill - at least not submarines that try to do damage themselves. It is the compunding effect between submarines, surface ships and airborne cancer that is the main issue here. Ever since submarines arrived, games have become even more passive - not even because of the damage submarines can do, but because of the spotting, need to conserve DCP and several other things that are connected with presence of submarines yet not obvious on the WarGaming's beloved spreadsheets. Agreed.

I know how DDs behave because most DDs go for the objectives. Submarines, from what I have noticed, usually go for the kills. And you are ignoring that DDs have far larger detection range than submarines do. And yes, I have already pointed out that most submarine players are idiots, and that said fact makes submarines easy to counter most of the time. That is not an issue. Issue is that a) submarines are balanced around sub players being idiots and are thus too effective in the hands of somebody who knows what he is doing and b) they make the game simply unenjoyable. A competent sub player will be aware of everything you have noted, just as a competent DD player will. And will take precautions. When I play a DD, I never go straight for the cap, because I know somebody on the enemy team will likely anticipate it. And I'm not even that good of a player.

You get no choice.

I have games where I kill both subs. Not hard if they are idiots. But in my last game subs actually went for the objectives, the way destroyers do. There was absolutely nothing to do because our subs had died. And yes, I did literally everything you mentioned so far, and more. So sorry, but you really don't understand what the problem with subs is. Most of the time subs are not a threat because most submarine players are idiots looking for easy farming. But none of what you have written works against good submarine players who play for objectives. Problem is, much like CVs, submarines a) have inherent issues and b) are balanced for the incompetents because these types play them the most.