Pukovnik7

That is literally the only reason why I played Ranked at all.

First, there are more speed settings than "camping in place" and "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead". You often have to vary your speed, and that means you may not have sufficient speed to evade the drops even when you are not camping. Second, in my two encounters with stupid parachute bombs, they had no issue landing hits on a battleship maneuvering at 20 knots. And by the way, I like playing battlecruisers and fast battleships: Gneisenau, Scharnhorst, Dunkerque, Vanguard. These are not slow, sluggish ships. And one of these two was a nearly clean hit: took me to half the health in a single drop (it was a Vanguard one BTW). Second one (in one of the Germans) only clipped me, but still caused two fires. It is a problem with air attacks in general: if you are fighting surface ships, especially other battleships, you cannot show side because you get citadelled. Which means that your maneuvering options are limited, which means that anything using aircraft can simply farm you. Third, using islands for cover is a major part of the game, and this often involves inching forward at 1/4 to 1/2 speed. That is not camping. How dynamic and fun the game is is determined not by the speed ships play at, but at how complex the battlefield is. And complexity of the battlefield and how dynamic the game is is determined by the map design and amount of cover, not by the speed at which ships move. If ships cannot utilize cover properly because they have to stay at 30 knots or get rekt, they will simply go camp with the carrier. This mechanic will make camping worse, not better. Fourth, there already is an anti-camping mechanic in the game, and it is called torpedoes. Whether it is TBs or DDs or something else, getting caught by a torpedo-wielding anything is a very bad thing when you are not moving at speed. In the end, this is just a cheap copout by WG. It will not promote brawling, it will promote spawn camping as everybody and their aunt huddle under CVs protective umbrella. Dynamic, brawling game is promoted primarily by map design: tall islands which cannot be shot over, numerous passages which allow pushing, retreating, outflanking... camping happens when maps are designed in a way that everyone can shoot clean over the map. In such a case, going anywhere is suicide, and the whole match turns into a peek-a-boo by island camping battleships.

I restarted the German line - decided to play only Germans, and from bottom up. So I played a Tier IV game. I took a battleship (Kaiser), sailed straight into the enemy cap, and then circled inside it for two minutes while three enemy battleships unsuccessfuly tried to dislodge me with long-range fire. Then they died, my team joined me and we capped it to the end. Let me repeat: I circled inside the enemy cap for two minutes while three enemy battleships were too shy to get into their own damn cap. I mean, sure, I was in a secondary specced Kaiser, and the rest of my team was not dead... but I was very much separated from them - it took them around two minutes to reach me - and not single one of the enemy battleships even thought that "Okay, we're completelly failing at killing this guy from 10 clicks out, maybe if we get closer...?".

Problem is, people will just move to camping in a spawn. And BTW, a 250-meter battleship has a hard time evading that crap even when it is moving.

Nice philosophy. But defense is stronger than offense because of its ability to focus fire at long range. Which means that to enable offense, this ability needs to be limited, which means tall islands that can serve as hard cover. Offense can easily be stronger than defense, but only if it is allowed to concentrate strength against a certain portion of defense. Which, again, cannot happen if a) everyone knows where everyone else is and b) everyone can fire all across the map. Play a map where fire can be focused at long range, and then play a map where this ability doesn't exist. Then look at which one is more dynamic. It won't be the one where both teams have the ability to focus fire on any ship which tries to push. Unless you think I was suggesting maps which look like the central strait on Two Brothers? In which case either I need to write more clearly or you need to read more carefully.

Yeah. I actually started out by overusing HE because I started with British line... but games have been a lot more fun once I learned how to use AP properly. And nowadays I hardly use anything except AP. It is lot more fun, and far more rewarding when you do it properly (plus, German HE is kinda crap, so their AP is actually better even in situations where other ships would use HE). Longer rudder shift time will promote camping because it will make it even more difficult to avoid torpedoes. Removing HE and reducing accuracy would be a good idea, though.

They are easiest class to play, yes. But they are not the strongest class, nor the easiest class to play well. I have figured out how to assist team properly in a destroyer long before I have figured out how to do that in a battleship. And how do you propose to make BBs much harder without screwing over cruisers and destroyers in the process? No, it is a combination of factors. Read what I wrote in the OP again. HE would not be a problem if islands limited long-range fire opportunities. Long range fire would be much less of a problem if battleships shot only AP and so felt they had to get closer to deal consistent damage. And so on. Map design allowing long-range crossfire is the main problem, but far from the only one.

BBs aren't OP, trust me. Try playing them - you will either be useless to the team if you are a camper, or you will die very quickly to focus fire. The reason why BBs are so popular is because they are recognizable, and possibly also because they can stay at range and avoid being focus-fired... But in my personal case, it is because they have AA and I really hate the sky cancer. So at least I can feel good shooting down dozen or so planes. And this mentality is, in fact, is a consequence of my days in a destroyer. You could just as well say that my OP is a "DD bingo card", because all these issues are what made me play destroyers far less frequently than I otherwise would. In fact, I am doing my best to improve my battleship play because I expect destroyers might become unplayable at top tiers. I mean, trolling carriers can be fun if CV player is a n00b, but that is a draw of the straw. And even though it is fun, it still locks me out of the game - I can't hunt other destroyers nor can I provide adequate spotting and smokescreen support for other ships. And for a destroyer, being permaspotted is a death sentence, especially on maps where there are no islands to hide behind while you deal with the aircraft. And I can't provide proper spotting or support if all the enemy battleships are hugging their CV, and CV in turn prevents me from going out in the open to spot them, or from going to caps (latter depends on how good CV player is, but yeah). So I play battleships because at least then I have the freedom to eat a few aerial torpedoes or bombs in exchange for a killing salvo or a more effective position, and I also have to worry much less about being permaspotted because, hey, battleship - big guns, thick armour, and so big that I would be permaspotted anyway, so I don't give a s*** about that little yellow exclamation mark. None of this is something I can do in a destroyer, and destroyer has too many things to do anyway to begin with. I need to spot, I need to keep enemy destroyers away from friendly battleships and cruisers, I need to lay down smoke if an ally is trying to pull back from a "too hot to live" area, and through this all I need to survive so I can cap if an opportunity presents itself. And when on top of all that I need to deal with a carrier, it simply becomes too much for me to actually enjoy the game - at that point, I just look at the clock and hope that match ends soon - preferably with victory, but if not, well, I did my best. Compared to playing a destroyer, battleship gameplay is outright relaxing, and I always play a battleship game after each DD game that has a CV in it simply to calm my nerves. But the fact that I often need to stay at range makes me feel useless: I cannot provide proper fire support to friendly destroyers because enemy destroyers are too agile to hit at long range and cruisers hide behind islands, I cannot provide AA support because I cannot push forward and get the destroyer under my AA umbrella - and said umbrella is so full of holes that doing so is useless anyway. And watching destroyers get murdered by CV without being able to do anything about it... yeah. Rather frustrating. Sorry for the wall o' rant. I think my 24% survival rate is partly a result of the fact that I am often too aggressive. Just few games ago, I took my Scharnhorst into the middle of three enemy battleships, two of which were higher tier than me. I died, but I killed a Tier VIII BB and I delayed them for a few minutes. I play the thing as if it were a giant destroyer TBH. And less said about some stunts I pulled off in an actual destroyer (five battleships grouping together? Torpedo time, chaps), the better. Just to add... I have been on both ends of this situation... burning BBs in my DD, and being burned by a DD in my BB. And it is not fun on either end. Not as a DD doing the burning, not as a BB being burned by a DD. @ColonelPete Would you reply to my post?

That would be the basis of any solution, yes. Even the current close-to-useless AA would force CV to be far more careful if planes weren't regeneratable or if plane regeneration was a consumable, akin to surface ship's HP regeneration. Because the fact is, CVs HP is not its HP, CVs HP are its planes.

Unless they are British . But yeah, I agree - especially German battleships will often use nothing but AP... even when HE would actually be better choice.

I have learned how not to kamikaze, though I did have a major problem with it until recently. And I still have a problem occasionally if there is no DD around to spot (stealth-torping DDs can be a major pain in the back). But when everybody else is camping at I-J line, supporting cruisers and destroyers from F line does count as being "extremely aggressive". And if I get an opporunity to brawl enemy battleship, I will take it, so long as I can count on cover against other battleships sniping me. These are my mid-game-to-endgame positions in three recent games (all victories, BTW): Notice how all of them are only possible because of the cover provided by the islands? In fact, I generally choose my positioning primarily based on what island cover is available and my ability to threaten the enemy flank / protect our own flank (and this is in fact the case even in the first screencap I provided - since the entire enemy team is close to cap A, me being at cap B is effectively threatening their flank - I am not in a flanking position at the moment, but had they chosen to push into A, I will have been. Which is basically what happened anyway. I didn't do that much damage, but that was because I effectively "locked down" enemy ships for a time). And that brings us back to what I wrote: open maps are a major problem because they allow focus fire. Expecting coordination from players in this game is less realistic than expecting knowledge of advanced ballistics and detailed battleship construction. In order for a push to happen, single player must take the initiative and then you get a snowball effect - but this will never happen if everyone knows that trying to push and exposing yourself means that you get focused by the entirety of the enemy team. In order to push, you need not just concealment, but proper cover. Precisely my point. Maps have a massive influence on how the game goes, and open maps result in very slow-paced games which typically end in a landslide. Both of which are bad: slow-paced games are frustrating because nothing happens for a long time (yet nothing can happen because you have to wait for the enemy to make a mistake), and landslide victories or defeats are frustrating because there is no sense of challenge - I get frustrated when we win because it was too easy, and I get frustrated when we lose because I have the (usually correct) impression that nothing I could have done would have changed the outcome. Good, big islands that break up the map remove both of these frustrating factors: lack of long-range fire opportunities means that you can lose one flank while winning the center and the other flank, it allows easy repositioning, flanking, and it also allows the team to fall back, regroup and stall the enemy. And it also means that individual player's contribution is far more visible, which goes a long way to preventing frustration even if the game is a loss.

Because battleships are the most recognizable class and thus most popular. Most people will know to recognize Nelson, King George V, not to mention Bismarck. How many people know about Fletcher, Hunt or Le Fantasque? They also don't get bullied by other battleships like cruisers do, and nowhere as badly by carriers as destroyers do. As for my personal reason why I play battleships? Secondaries and tanking. That's it. I like killing people at short range with my secondaires, and I like being shot at while the enemy team is forgetting about that DD capping their base behind their backs. But yeah, OP is pretty much on point.

I play German battleships almost exclusively. And just in my last game, I had what I would call a fun match. Not exactly stellar performance, extremely static, but there were three battleships from each team in a channel, and there was a lot of back-and-forth, peek-and-shoot... not much movement, but both groups kept each other on edge almost all the time. I got a "Dreadnought" out of it, by the way, which is one of ways I measure whether I have played my battleship well or not. After all, if the enemies are shooting at me that much, they are not shooting at something more valuable - say, destroyers. These are not excuses. If it were just me, you would have a point, but: a) I am an extremely aggressive player most of the time, so if I am not pushing, you can bet your mom that nobody else on that flank is pushing either. b) Other people are obviously not able to do it because they are not doing it. If they were doing it, I would have no cause to complain. c) Pushing BBs on open maps do not "get their paint scratched", they get burned to death. Pushing requires support, not only from destroyers and cruisers, but also other battleships as well. 20210524_173905_PGSB107-Gneisenau_17_NA_fault_line.wowsreplay

I am not mistaken. Concealment =/= cover. If you can be fired at by half the enemy team the moment you are detected, you cannot push - because in a battleship, you will be detected with no possibility of avoiding it. The only way to survive is to use islands to mitigate damage, and that doesn't work if islands are so low and so few they can be easily fired over. Yeah, no. BBs are also far larger targets than many cruisers. And cruisers cannot push either: in fact, many games have very few cruisers, and those cruisers that are present generally just camp behind islands, using their sharper firing arcs to farm HE damage on any battleships that do try to push. Because if they go out in the open, all it takes is one good BB AP salvo from across the map for a cruiser to be deleted / instakilled. Again, thick armour alone doesn't work. Ships at high tiers are too accurate at range, and HE is too powerful, for a battleship to "just" tank damage. You need to angle, you need to control enemy lines of fire - and that means utilizing terrain. Which doesn't work if the enemy can simply fire over islands anyway, or if there are not enough good islands to restrict enemy fire when moving from island to island. When it comes to maps I am complaining about, people don't use islands and the topography against me because they cannot use it, the same way I cannot use it against them. The only thing victory or defeat in such a shooting match comes down to is number and accuracy of ships participating in it. If you are on a weak flank, forget about holding off the enemy, you can simply run straight away. And I am not talking about pushing: on many maps, holding the position against a superior force is impossible because there are simply too few possibilities for mitigating enemy fire. On well-designed maps, there were cases where I planted my BB [edited]in an advanced position and held off enemy team of two or three battleships and a cruiser for several minutes, until our destroyers finished capping and the battle was essentially won. But a battleship which is forced to camp at the backline simply isn't scary enough to have such an effect on the match. Of course they won't push, when pushing means being focused and HE-spammed to death with no cover in range. Two things you have to have in order to push are 1) ability to restrict the incoming fire while pushing and 2) possibility to disengage in case the opposition is too strong. Both of these depend on there being proper, tall islands which restrict enemy firing arcs. Whether it is tactical game or not depends on the map. If map is open - especially if it is one with low-lying islands - then there are no tactics, just arithmetics. Where the flying CV do you see tactics in battleships hugging line-9 and spamming HE at each other or any cruiser that draws their attention? Angling doesn't work when the entirety of the enemy battle line can spam you with HE from a wide angle. Yeah, no. That just leads to more camper-spammer playstyle. In fact, low-tier maps tend to be more fun because ships - especially battleships - are so innacurate, and armour is stronger compared to armaments, that you are forced to come closer to ensure a kill. That means coming to fun range, where you can actually rely on your secondaries for damage. And vast majority of Tier VII maps I have played recently are extremely open, so I don't see where you got the idea that "huge slabs of rock" are common. And these "huge slabs of rock", when they do appear, are by far the best and most fun maps: as you say, they prevent firing over them, forcing ships into killing zones... which means battleship brawls, which is to say, a fun game. Bolded part is a major part of what I am complaining about. In short, forget player quality, forget tactics, it all comes down to accuracy, luck and arithmetics. Speaking of, how good Italian battleships are at brawling? That smoke generator sure sounds handy.

What, so I can immediately quit the game the moment I see a map without cover? And the reason why they don't push is because battleships are large, noticeable and not very maneuverable. Which means that they have to let more agile ships in front of them because they cannot survive being focused by half a dozen HE-spamming ships and do not have enough speed to disengage when the rest of their teammates abandon them for an area less hot.

Planning doesn't help when you have to cross half the map to reach one good island, which will be worse than useless because even if you reach it you will be stuck behind it because the entire enemy team can easily shoot you the moment you try to leave cover. And the reason why they stay in the back is because when they push forward, they get focused by the entire enemy team - any ship that tries to push dies a quick and fiery death. Which can only happen in the first place because map design allows it.

I use whatever islands are available. But a lot of the time, there are simply no good islands, or they are in positions where trying to reach them would be suicidal. So you really think that camping flamethrower pandemic infesting the game has absolutely nothing to do with game design? Players will do whatever gets them results in the game. You cannot expect them to behave in a certain way if game does its best to penalize behaviour in question. Premium Grosser Kurfurst variant...

They are a class. They are very definitely not a "class like any other", which is a claim I was responding to. BB, DD, CA, CL, they all share same characteristics. They are limited by terrain, by gun range, they have to make constant risk-reward assessment, they often have to trade HP for game influence - losing health and possibly dying to enable team a better position. CV has absolutely none of these characteristics. It is not limited by terrain, it can strike anywhere, any time, it is basically immune to risks and only receives rewards, it does not have to risk its HP pool to influence the match. No, CV is not a class like any other. It is an ICBM in a world of howitzers. And now they are giving same retarded mechanics to cruisers.

Agreed. I quit World of Tanks because I had issues with it, despite having some very good memories with this game. WoWs I always liked more, so it will take much more frustration for me to reach that point, but...

Also, there are still some game modes that are fun and which people can take refuge in. Playing at Tier VI and VII can be fun, as there are still brawls to be had. Then there are also Operations. So the fact that people are complaining yet still playing doesn't mean that complaints are wrong... just that the game originally had so much quality that it is difficult to wreck it all, despite WarGaming's best efforts.

It is a ship using aircraft to attack, which means it is a ship using CV mechanics even if it is not technically a CV. Which means that it has all the problems with actual CVs, plus a slew of original problems on the side.

And again, it is a cruiser that is using airplanes to attack. Except far more retarded than an actual CV. This is my comment that started this "is CV / is not CV" stuff. At least try and be aware of what you are responding to: Cruiser that summons airstrikes = CV that cosplays as a surface combatant. Except mechanics of an actual air strike are far more retarded than even CV mechanics, but it is still using planes to cause damage at no danger to the ship utilizing them. Thus, cheapskate CV.

It. Is. The. Same. Bloody. Mechanic. Doesn't matter whether aircraft come from a carrier or are spawned from Satan's [edited], a ship that can use aircraft to attack other ships is no longer a surface combatant, and has nothing to do in the World of Warships. The end.

I am aware. And, again, NOT. THE. BLOODY. POINT. If Dutch cruisers can summon an air strike, why not give that capability to ALL ships in the game? That destroyer feels threatened? Air strike. That battleship is in a bad position? Air strike. That cruiser is cornered? [edited]air strike. That mechanic is completely broken and mentally retarded, no matter how many cherries you find to pick. And if a ship can summon an air strike, how is it not a carrier? Except this mechanic is far more retarded than actual CV mechanics, because at least with a CV you can set it on fire. And it still doesn't change the fact that this is (supposed to be) World of Warships, not World of Air Strikes. True, though it is not like flak is much of an obstacle, but at least with a CV, you see a strike coming from afar.

It would actually be much easier to fit into the game than current CVs (or CV-cruisers... shudder) are, too.