Ubertron_X

Radar/Hydro and Def-AA for all cruisers comes into mind (plus heals t8+ at last). We need more swiss army knife CA's.

Well, Saipan made me quit CV's (I moved from Hiryu to Shokaku but eventually stopped there) so I may not be of too much help but I damn well know that feeling. Any decent Saipan player will be able to run circles around your planes with that nice T9 speed. As the others already said try to follow Stanley Baldwin doctrine, aka the bomber will always come through and fight his team, not him.

Wrong skill. Not the one with the numbers, just the one that automagically gets you an exclamation mark on your screen once you are spotted (and which you get for free).

I remember the good old days pushing in my BB's using map awareness alone, i.e. even without having SA skill. (Well, I was young and stupid back then...)

Though the "punish active BB players more" argument is of course valid it was never the aim of this suggestion to push more BB's to the front lines. You could buff BB's to near invincibility or nerf them to hell, many BB players will never act according to the role of the often discussed "front line support tank". The reason for the discussion was mostly about class balance and an attempt to get BB's apparent superiority/ease of play in check, with the possible side effect of perhaps even dimnishing their player numbers. If a BB can more easily die to a well executed open water torpedo attack as quickly as a CA can die to a devastating BB salvo a little more equity is reached. No? By the way it is my humble opinion that the active BB players are the ones who could deal with any such change the best. Increasing BB visibility is an option but it may also be counter-intuitive in trying to get BB's to commit to the front lines. If BB's are more or less perma-spotted, it is either "commit and win" or "commit and die", as you will never ever get unspotted again once you commit. Ergo many BB players might simply not commit anymore, but rely to even more sniping instead. Regarding mitigating damage range is your friend in a BB too. On the other hand, and taking it to the extreme, wouldn't it be beneficial for both CA'S and DD's if *all* BB stuck to their respective base lines and leave the cap fights entirely to CA's and DD's? *just kidding* P.S.: And by the way, it's ok for different people to have different opinions, so don't be mad if I stop answering at sometime in this thread as I don't plan to re-iterate opinions and point of view too often. I am not trying to "sell" my suggestion, it is more the open discussion I am after.

It is for sure not the ultima ratio, just trying to think a little out of the box. I think it even was a first tier perk, thats the reason why everybody heavily used it and we finally got it for free...

I agree that the later could be the case, however this argument is valid for *any* changes to BB gameplay, even if you just buff all other classes and leave BB untouched. "Hepaderp CA and DD much stronker now, I stay back..." And regarding the first argument point taken that there are definitely two BB philosophies. With camouflage values as low as 11km to 12.5km (when using the skill) I usually prefer to chose when I am detected in a BB and when not (in between my 30 secs of reload at least 10 seconds of invis mode possible).

So you are supporting cap in your Missouri and an enemy DD was spotted some 7km away behind some isles but is invisible now. When will you trigger radar with or without SA skill? Huge difference...

Good question... For IFA I think there is almost no impact as the alarm would still be able to go off, regardless if you have a spotted symbol displayed or not. PT is the more important question, however I also see no need for big changes. Remember that a torpedo lock will not trigger PT (at least it is supposed to not to), so any DD or CA that plays smart will not radio their presence prematurely.

Though it is not impossible for British BB to citadel other BB's it is much harder to pull off, as the British AP shells have shortened fuse timers. While this helps versus cruisers to avoid overpenetrations it causes the shells to explode prematurely when they hit BB's, dealing regular penetration damage instead of causing citadel hits. In addition to that there are a couple of BB who are notoriously hard to citadel, mostly those who have a submerged citadel and/or feature effective turtleback armour (literally the entire Kriegsmarine BB line), which is especially true at close range, as the shallower shell angles work against you.

Ever heard the tragic story of short AP fuse shells versus subsurface citadels and/or turtleback armour?

Don't forget that the arrival of the KM BB line finally meant a fast and sturdy battleship at T7 (and for everyone as it is a silver ship). A battleship that is quite tanky, actually able to maneuvre, able to cross the map quickly and even featuring torpedoes. And while the 21kt Colorado as well as the 25kt Nagato have more and bigger guns they both feel like a step back in their respective lines (from New Mexico and Fuso; both of which will be able to give a 12-gun salute), while the Gneisenau plays like a huge step forward from the Bayern and also sets the mood for the tiers to come.

One reason why class balance does not work? Because Rock-Paper-Scissors does not work as soon as order of battle comes into play! While a lone Kamikaze *is* a perfect counter to any lone battleship this is a scenario that does not happen overly often, especially at higher tiers. BB's hard counter CA/CL's up to 15km, and are somewhat able to counter CA/CL's up to maximum shooting range (20km+). Also BB's are able to counter DD's at ranges in between 6km and 15km, depending on spotting (the greater the distance the less reliable of course). CA/CL's hard counter DD's at distances of 10km or less (if spotted), and are somewhat able to counter DD's at ranges up to 15km. Also CA/CL's are somewhat able to counter BB's at ranges of 15km+ (i.e. ranges that many CA/CL's simply do not have). DD's hard counter BB's in between 4km and 8km (effective torpedo range), and are somewhat able to counter BB's at ranges up to 16km (max torpedo range). Also DD's are somewhat able to counter CA/CL's at ranges in between 6km and 12km (depending on hydro vs radar). Now keeping in mind the above distances (even if they do not account for every single ship and/or might not be 100% accurate) and given the natural order of battle (BB>CA>DD) this means that a DD is only a hard counter to a BB if there is absolutely *no* enemy DD or CA in between the DD and the BB and there is no CV in play. And even if there are no DD or CA in between the DD and its prey, and also no CV planes around, any decent BB player that has an idea that an enemy DD may be approaching (hello free Situational Awareness skill) can simply turn tail and run, greatly mitigating the chances of devastating damage. Often enough we see the side that loses their DD(s) in the initial clash retreat from cap (and rightly so), rendering the "winning" DD's useless as a damage dealer. Regarding DD vs BB balance there are simply too much restrictions for a class that is meant as a direct counter to another class.

I concur that the torps would be way easier to spot if they kept their respective trails (green for own ones, red for enemy ones; can be seen at launch). Is this a bug or intended?

Please tell this to every DD captain that takes his ship to cap, gets spotted, smokes up immediately and dies to the enemy DD's torpedoes while sitting in his smoke... I am currently leveling PADD and it is a pain in the arm not being able to hit other DD with torps (or not even being able to threaten to hit).

However as others have already stated it may affect the style of how BB's are played. BB's hanging back won't care for a random torpedo hit because the spread will be wider the farther away and they usually have no CD on DCP anyway. Frontline BB on the other hand...

As we can see how even simple weekly missions can mess up the queues I am quite astonished that WG isn't providing proper incentives in order to promote less played classes. You want a CV's in nearly every battle? Provide month long massive boni or semi-permament medium boni (XP or credits or both) and see how it works out? You want more CA's in your battles? Provide month long massive boni or semi-permament medium boni (XP or credits or both) and see how it works out? For example CA's could be the go-to workhorses for grinding credits (like +25% inherent boost), so a lot more people would actually play them.

Though I know that Priority Target is usually rated above every other 1 point skill I can't recommend the Incomming Fire Alert skill enough for cruisers. Keeping one eye on the mini-map and the other on the targets you can see yourself, this skill is such a great life-saver I use it on all my cruisers. Though PT gives somewhat similar but ultimatively different meta info I find the information if somebody is actually really shooting at you invaluable in order to maintain DPM as well as being able to take evasive action.

The problem with cruisers is their primary mode of mitigating damage. DD's mitigate damage by being small targets and having good stealth. You can't damage what you can't see / hit. BB's mitigate damage by armour and recovering HP. BB can take enormous punishment, if you can hit them at all (range <> reload <> stealth). CA's try to mitigate damage by evading, which is not working, especially vs attacks comming from multiple directions (both from BB's or other CA's). You neither have the armour, nor the rudder shift nor the range nor the stealth to mitigate damage properly. Thus when it comes to mitigating damage CA's unfortunately are not Jack of all trades but indeed are master of none. Result: CA's are prime targets and usually die early => people switch to BB or DD for better survivability.

The only thing I see in this tread / screenshot is bad DD balancing...

Maybe stop behaving like this? In most cases players can't know if any change is intentional or a bug, they will just experience and report the change(s).

Einen Freund einladen geht übrigends auch mit alten Accounts, welche länger inaktiv waren (>6 Monate glaube ich). Dann bekommt der Eingeladene die Diana und die Texas umsonst, habe ich schon praktiziert mit einem Freund, welcher längere Zeit nicht gespielt hatte. In Zukunft mal dran denken...

Yeah, if you want to do with honors it can be quite anoying if the only BB you got before was Bretagne or even none. And now I am somewhat torn in between actually playing the new line (which was my original plan) or free XP'ing the Richelieu and continuing from there.

The only thing that hampers Shimakaze is the fact that apart from the Russian non-DDs-labelled-DDs she can literally be "outspotted" by every other DD and will easily be outspotted by her predecessors. Just give her 5.4 visibility and let the whining begin...