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  1. RAMJB

    What the PR PR fiasco cost wargaming?

    Well they DO have kind of "competition". Coming from another russian company , Crapjin....sorry, Gaijin...in another massive money grab of a game called Crap Thunder. Sorry, again, War Thunder. But yeah, even while that game always had exceeding potential never realized because of the incompetence of their developers and it's a clownfiesta (to put it mindly), they do have tanks, and ships. And planes, on top. Oh and ever helicopters (they obviously don't know where to stop, at this rate they're going to bring in some kind of spacefaring cruisers XDDDDDDD)... the game is also mostly deathmatch between teams with vehicles they modelled after historical counterparts (that fight nothing like them). It sounds completely like a "World of..." game. And in fact it wasn't intended to be this way initially: Gaijin turned into this model pretty much on purpose. Hasn't worked very well for them, but hey, it is what it is. So yeah, they do have competition. War thunder may be crap (not that WOWS is exactly a piece of gaming art either, now we're at it), but it's competition. Problem is that Gaijin is almost on the same scale of moneygrabbing thievery Wargaming is involved into... before this PR scandal I'd said they were worse, but after this they only "come close". So it's not a case of "there's no competence". the case is that "the competence" is doing exactly the same and are guilty of exactly the same things WG is. So it's not as if it's any real alternative for the problem at hand XD.
  2. RAMJB

    Are you going to grind the Puerto Rico?

    Your call, mate. If you want to sink a huge investment of time and resources (all those flags and camos you'll burn) into an objectivelly impossible to meet goal, it's your decision. I'm just trying to save you the dissapointment you mention in that last phrase. No, you won't get it and yes, it'll be removed from the yard before you have a chance to finish it.
  3. RAMJB

    Are you going to grind the Puerto Rico?

    If he even starts with this in full possession of his mental faculties, I consider it a proof that he has no life anyway.... ....or no brain XDDD
  4. RAMJB

    Are you going to grind the Puerto Rico?

    please some helpful soul help this guy come to his senses and understand the scale of what he's getting into, so he doesn't waste one month of his life away in a pointless attempt damned to fail... I would do it myself, but I'm far removed from being able to given how hard I'm choking in laughter... XDDDDD
  5. RAMJB

    Please don't buy the Puerto Rico

    No. The idea would be OK if it was given as some sort of very long career reward. Hard to get for free, requiring effort is OK. IMPOSSIBLE to get and DEMANDING you to play 24/7 for one whole month (and even then probably not being enough) is NOT ok. And MUCH LESS when advertised as "hey, it's christmas, we're giving you a free ship". No, they're not "giving" it ,and no, it's not "free". Let's be real here, I'm not playing this game since more than one year ago, I'm just here reading the epic result of such a massive d*ck move from WG. It's entertaining to see how companies that have everything to be both incredibly sucessful while loved by their audiences shoot their own foot with a grenade launcher, just because of greed. But even I (who was never to even try getting this ship and who doesn't care about it because he doesn't play the game) am completely astonished and disgusted by the level of arseholery that WG has reached on this one. The dockyard looks cool from what i've seen in the CC videos. The idea of displaying how a warship was built is splendid, and probably can be a very nice thing to watch for people who don't know much about ships of the period. But everything else related to that ship is a sh*tshow of epic caliber, and a giant middle finger to WG's playerbase. One thing is a shameless moneygrab. Another thing is trying to do a shameless moneygrab while trying to sell the idea that the ship is "for free" for those who want it. It's qualifiable as fraudulent advertisement, FFS. So how in earth can you "like this idea"?.
  6. RAMJB

    Even CCs complain about Puerto Rico grind

    With all due respect, that's BS. And not like a little turd off the rear end of the cow. I'm talking about that being a huge, stinking, massive, pile of steaming manure. They can be the messengers of bad news. If they were that, well, ok, yes, not their fault. They're just delivering us the bad news. But they step beyond a very critical line when they openly and directly LIE to the players about something, or treat them like idiots, as if they were just dumb and not notice they're being openly lied to. Openly stating things that are NOT true acting as if those they address didn't know what the hell is going on.. And this is not restricted to the named individuals. In Reddit a certain Sub_octavian in particular is guilty of lying without shame (check the goritzia thread). Delivering a bad new is not the messenger's fault. LYING about the new, trying to pass it as something that's not and sugarcoating it as if it was all fine and dandy **IS** the messenger's fault, and he's accountable for it. So the hate in MrConway, Tucci and all those guys on WG's payroll that are going around lying with each breath of oxygen they exhale is perfectly warranted.
  7. RAMJB

    CV Rework Discussion

    More than one year after leaving the game I came to check out how stuff is going and... Oh, the bittersweet feeling of seeing every single word I uttered confirmed once again. the "rework" is loathed by everyone who doesn't play CVs (and some CV players too), the list of nerfs and buffs is kilometric by now, and it'll go on and on and on and on for no noticeable result nor real change at all, and the timer for the next "rework" is ticking down. I'm giving it 2-3 years before CVs are drastically changed again. Only to not work again. Because, and I'll insist it one year later, the only "rework" that will "work" for CVs in a game like this is to take them out of PvP modes. The similarities between this and WOT's artillery are so dramatic that's even amusing to watch WG refusing to learn from past mistakes. Arty has already gone through how many different implementations there?...only to not work in either of them. Well, we're only at the start of the road here, same story with CVs - work, rework, rerework, and rererework, WG will pull any crap in order to balance something that can't be, but won't do the ONLY thing that will REALLY balance it. Removing the problem. Deniers can fight all they want against the obvious, but in the end the obvious is...well, obvious, and no matter how many individuals want to claim the emperor's new dress is amazing, he'll still be naked in the end. One year after I predicted what was coming, it did come. See all of ya next year to check out on how well this "balancing" BS goes by then. ;)
  8. RAMJB

    Were the buffs to Hipper and Eugen enough?

    also your authority in that regard is a joke as you are overall barely better than me considering the number of games Overall solo class stats (cruisers) You. 55.01%. WR. 1417 PR, average damage 39628 Me. 54.76% WR. 1768 PR, average damage 52256 You're a good enough player, no question about that. Yet I'd be very reluctant to call someone with 20% superior PR and 25% superior average damage than myself "barely better than me". Just sayin'.
  9. RAMJB

    Were the buffs to Hipper and Eugen enough?

    Me vs you. Thanks for putting up the images. Please check average damage and personal rating. Ships we both have: -edinbrough. Both superior in my case -hipper. Both superior in my case. -chapayev. Both superior in my case (which is specially suprising as you can guess by my WR how good the average team I enjoy with that ship is). -cleveland. Both superior in my case (again surprising given my WR. You can guess some things about the teams I enjoyed when in that ship out of that WR, specifically if you extrapolate my WR in that ship with the rest of the american cruisers I've played. I do know how to play my american radar cruisers. My teams, however...). -Atago. 6 battles 33% WR, guess again that says enough about the teams I had. PR is superior for you (quite much so), average damage still favors me. Still only 6 battles in that one so hardly enough for a proper comparison. So, you posted that image, which without doubt proves that my personal performance on those ships is consistently better than yours (again WR is subjected to extreme variance on anything under 200 battles so is not a real point to compare here), proves exactly what in your favor?. If you don't want to pretend that your stats are special or that mine are underwhelming, then you'd not have drifted off on this track. I'm not pretending that. I'd be an utter fool to do otherwise. There are a good bunch of players who post regularily in this boards with a PR of 2000+ and average damages 33% superior to mine. I used that argument because you were just answering stuff that is completely mindbogging and senseless (such as german hydro being such a "small consolation for bad concealment"), and because after three consecutive argumented answers you had moved not one milimeter off your starting position, even when argued with clear arguments that counterbalanced yours. So, I went the other way around. Let's assume you're COMPLETELY right, and I am (obviously) COMPLETELY WRONG. explain the difference in performances between us both in the respective cruisers we both own when playing solo, please. Because if you were so damn right and I were to be so damn wrong, you should have me beaten in EVERY single category (other than WR which, again, is factual in any ship with a sample smaller than 200 battles). Yet it's me the one who has you beaten down in every.single.one.of.them... Except in one I played only 6 times...and in which I still outdamage you. Again, assuming the points you brought up are correct -which immediately qualify my answers as invalid... care to explain the discrepancy of expectations vs reality?.
  10. RAMJB

    Were the buffs to Hipper and Eugen enough?

    oh yeah if we're going to use screenshots...one of my last battles in Hipper before unlocking Roon. I struggled for the first part of the grind finding the sweetspot on how to use the ship. Once I understood it, it was a rollercoaster. This particular battle I sank two battleships who decided to attack me while I was rear in towards them (not bow in) in the gap between the islands in the middle of the map. Both came for me. Both were firing HE. It seems they decided that as I was down to 33% health I was an easy kill and that they could gang me as they pleased. Turns out, I wasn't, as my torpedoes were nice enough to remind them that hipper laughs in the face of fat bbs without overmatching guns, while their HE did pretty much nothing on me (damage saturation is a thing, you know, and as I said I was down to 33% health). Massacred the Lyon with a starboard launch, and massacred the Bismarck comin in shortly behind...with another starboard launch (when I say those torps have a lightining quick reload I'm not kidding). I only died when the Bismarck passed besides me and unleashed on my side with AP. But he was dead by then, he had repaired my HE fires , he ate four torpedoes, and the floodings did the rest. In that one I also did a full number on a Chapayev and a Mogami, both in mostly 1v1 engagements, something that according to this thread the Hipper isn't supposed to do even with one of them ,much less with both (because it has such a poor DPM, apparently, that is a game changing deciding factor in who wins an engagement...geometry, distance, maneouvers ,accuracy or ammo choice seems not to matter now) I also blew up a destroyer and gutted another two (all of them when smoked, all of them through hydro, but seems 6km hydro is useless so what do I know). To top it off I raked 56k damage through that next to useless AP (now I guess how I massacred those two T8 cruisers finds an explanation) And the lion's share was that 78k plus 44k flooding with my "torpedoes useful only in suicide rushes" ( two battleships did a grand total of 18k damage on me during the process of me torping them into oblivion. hardly a suicide rush...Or, rather, in fact actually a suicide rush. Theirs. as they were the ones who came straight for me while i was going full aft with my poop pointed at them XDDDD. had I been full health I'd have survived in a pretty OK state) I could go on but I'd say one picture is worth 1000 words. Three of them, I'm not sure ;). And, remember, this was BEFORE the reload buff. Which the ship needed without question.
  11. RAMJB

    Were the buffs to Hipper and Eugen enough?

    This is going round in circles because you simply discard the points you are brought as "whatever" just because ,for instance, once you met an absolute moron in a PE who insisted to push on your kiting battleship. Which obviously instantly means that the PE sucks. the whole rest of the debate is going alongside the same lines. So I'll reduce it to another approach. Your performance while playing solo in hipper: 40.9% win rate, 49000 average damage, PR 1345, in a total of 59 battles. hIghest damage 106000. can't say if pre-buff or post-buff. your performance while playing solo in hindenburg. 54% WR with 80.000 Average damage ,PR 1422 in a total of 48 battles. highest damage 198.000. Your tier 8 or higher cruisers with recorded stats (meaning, that you have ever played): Hipper, Prinz Eugen (played 5 times, barely counts), Atago, Martel, Roon, Cleveland, Chapayev, Edinbrough, Roon, Hindenburg. in other words you have no experience at all with baltimore nor new orleans pre-split, and you haven't played mogami yet. only t9 and t10 cruisers you've ever owned are Roon and Hindenburg. My performance while playing solo in hipper: 55% win rate, 47000 average damage, PR 1677, in a total of 94 battles, highest damage 208000 damage. all played pre-buff My solo performance in hindenburg: 50% win rate, 99000 average damage, pr 1583, in a total of 38 battles. highest damage 213000 . and it's a ship I'm cursed with horrible teams (out of my first 15 battles with it, I won only one...and no it wasn't because of me) my personal cruiser lineup includes des moines, zao, and hindenburg, obviously meaning I played all the previous ships in the lines. Neptune on the british line. Cleveland on the american CL line. Chapayev on the soviet line (another ship I'm cursed with horrible teams each time I play it). the only cruiser line I can't be bothered with grinding is the french one. I reached Algerie, couldn't be bothered with keeping it up. Completely unidimensional long range hespam gameplay, and I had far more than enough of that while going up the japanese line even while the japanese cruisers are all much stealthier. Meanwhile, exception made of Yorck, which I obviously grinded through before the AP buff, I found the german line as an exceptionally fun blend of styles, not excelling at any in particular, but being adaptable to almost any situation. And that sensation got accentuated tenfold the second I got myself into the hipper, and was reinforced both by Roon and Hindenburg. This is no stat shaming, you're a pretty decent player. I'm not trying to portray that you have no clue or no idea, or that you somehow are a bad player who just doesn't get it. Not the case. Partly because I consider myself pretty good but light years away from very good, and my stats are not those of someone with particular bragging rights, so this is not about that either. My stats are pretty much OK, but nothing special. What this is, however, is a particular view of how hard is to explain that, if you're so right, you still fail to perform on the same level as I do, who apparently am so wrong about everything I wrote about. If you were right you'd outperform me by a solid margin on both ships - yet it's me the one who outperforms you in all of them (exception made of WR, a variable that with under 200-ish battles is just too unreliable because of team variances on the short term) If you got things right you should consistently outperform me in both ships (and also in Roon, another ship I have noticeably better personal statistics than you, and plays exactly the same as hindenburg and hipper), and in any T8 or avobe cruisers in general. Turns out you don't have other T9 or T10 cruiser than Roon and Hinden, and turns out that in every other T8 cruiser, I still have better results. well, other than in Atago (I got the Atago B in a crate, and have played it only 6 times. During a weekend. You guess the rest). My particular view on this is that your views are based on too limited experience with high tier cruisers, in which in only one line you have gone past tier 8, and which probably is giving you a limited perspective on the actual strenghts of the Hipper as compared with it's (obvious) weaknesses. I repeat that I am by no means the best player ever, I'm not even close to being a very good player, yet I consistently outperform you in every cruiser we both have (with the named Atago exception). How do you explain it, if you're so right and I'm so wrong?. (PD: yes, the kronshtadt doesn't have 50mm armor. Completely botched the mental image I had of that warship from ship armor schemes I saw a long time ago in a post that had images of both stalingrad, moskva and kronstad's armor schemes. I don't own the ship myself so I lack first hand experience on it's armor layout. Big deal).
  12. RAMJB

    Were the buffs to Hipper and Eugen enough?

    "It stopped that PE" It's all situational. I'm assuming if someone is rushing you, you're at the very least either stopped, or he's coming from your bow. in that scenario you simply won't have the rate of fire to fend off a PE coming for you at full speed before he's on top of you. If you're broadside on moving at speed, or worse, moving away, obviously you can farm him. But then the problem is not the hipper (or PE) but an idiot at the wheel. "I love that turtleback argument" So do I because it's a valid one. You're giving screenshots of firing to a completely broadside on hipper from different ranges, and getting cits (notably in ones or twos, when most cruisers would eat them in twos or threes, but that's besides the point). If you're giving full broadside to a BB turtleback or not you're going to get roflstomped and deservedly so. at 35-40º angle is not so clearcut however. It's as not so clearcut as to be highly unlikely. And that's the angle you want to use when moving into a BB with guns that overmatch your 27mm bows. Bow cits can still happen but are FAR rarer than in a straight up autobounce angle approach, but side cits won't happen - period. And they WILL happen in any other T8 cruiser shot at that angle. "50mm pen isn't that useful" Oh but it is, my dear boy, because without IFHE 203mm guns only pen 33mm of armor, and out of the british and french BBs, everything else has thicker deck armors than that, that an Atago won't get through but you will in your hipper. bismarck- check. Fdg- check. GK- check. Yamato- check. mushashi-check...montana- check. should I go on?. All those are ships which midships deck will bounce atago's 203mms but won't bounce hipper's, AT ALL. If you think that's a negligible difference, up to you, but no, it's not negligible, not at all, specially not when firing from 17km out (as you should in the initial stages of a game) where all you can reliably hit are battleships. "Hydro is - again - not that special" It is that special. whenever a german high tier hydro is present, it's a threat big enough to make high stealth DDs turn tails and keep their range. THAT alone is significant, and THAT is something you don't get with 5km hydro, period. Even GK's hydro works wonders in that sense (though of course is A LOT more situational in a brick that size), on Hipper, at T8? you must be kidding me. Detecting torpedoes aiming at you one km further out than with the standard hydro is also another massive advantage. Not only because it gives you much more time to react to those that come for you, but because you'll be detecting A LOT more torpedoes around you which aren't going for you but for allies, giving them, in turn, the time to react. If torpedoes weren't aimed at you you have a far larger chance to detect them with german hydro than with standard one. I won't stop repeating it - it's a massive difference, and one that's key. "cleveland can't hold a position well, neither can hipper" Erm...no?. being behind hard cover with a ship with 6 torpedoes per side means that you can hold it FAR better than with a ship with no torpedoes at all. A cleveland that doesn't perfectly time his retreat from a cover position under threat of being overrun by an enemy BB is DEAD. Period. A Hipper in that position is not only dead, but is likely to blast the BB into the moon. Specially if said BB hasn't got 16inch or bigger guns. you can flank wide?. Sure?. Always?. No, not always. But let's assume you can. Next step is assuming the relative risk either ship is at in that scenario. 1-one is impervious when angled to 380mm or less AP shells, and has turtleback 2-the other is not. and has not. Judge yourself which of either is in a worse spot. It ain't the hipper. Now I don't say a hipper in that position isn't under serious threat - but I -DO- say that a hipper in that position has the best chance to extricate itself from that position than any other T8 cruiser. "chapayev is not an obstacle camper" Neither is hipper, And hipper can not only actively avoid shells (chapayev at best can wiggle a bit even at top range because that stupidly big turning circle), but has 400 extra m range (and that matters, quite a bit in fact, specially during early game), and isn't made of tissue paper, but on top of that has guns that ,again, can pen 50mm of armor (and I already adressed that before, that matters against a FAR bigger target range than just moskvas), and has a much smaller citadel to boot. "Atago is in this conversation because it does long range shooting better" And indeed it does. Just not THAT much better. Better enough, for sure, but again, one ship is a specialist, the other a generalist. and no, I don't buy that "atago is good for other stuff too", because it's not. Yes, it has a brutal alpha, and can delivery some incredibly powerful surprise volleys. But after firing he's spotted, for 20 seconds, and won't fire in the next sixteen seconds. And unless he's really far away (like, really, far away) that rudder shift won't help much, nor will that 41mm deck armor, because one will be countered by just predicting the inevitable turn, and the second won't matter because the shells won't be hitting the deck at all. And out of that 41mm "miracle deck" (which ain't miracle at all under 14km at best ) atago's armor isn't hipper's. So again- Atago is still a long range specialist. hipper is not. Obviously Atago does long range stuff better, but hipper is no slouch in that role either, and isn't going to eat the kind of punishment an Atago will if caught under 13km of any minimally self-aware BB. "other cruisers can support cap better with firepower or radar" true for the initial cap rush. completely bonkers for later in the battle. 6km hydro is FAR more useful than radar in sweeping a cap that's defended by a DD with little support than Radar is (radar at best lasts 45 secons with the upgrade, guess how long hydro is on with upgrade), and those situations are plenty common at midgame (not to speak, lategame). most ships in that situation utterly die if they try to cap, let alone detect the DD. Hipper won't just cap, he can actively sweep the cap and force the DD to either retreat or die - there's no option left for him. What I'm going at, anyway, is that ,Yes, hipper on the earlygame is relatively limited in impact compared with other cruisers, but that such limitation is more than compensated by the fact that the more the game advances, the more and more impactful it becomes (quite more than any other T8 cruiser). Hipper isn't a good teamwork ship in the sense that it doesn't do much for the team early on (other than hydro area torpedo location), but it's self-reliant in a way no other T8 cruiser is, as it has a tool for any situation it can find itself in the lategame. Something that other T8s lack. And hydro is one of the tools that make for that self-reliant pack, and one that is a huge part of it. "hindenburg can tank a montana" in as much as can an Atago. No, no it can not. At extreme range some shells will fall on your deck. Not all.Some will hit the sides. Some will hit the bow or rear. Those that don't fall straight on top of the mid deck will hurt and will hurt badly. You don't choose RNG, where the shell falls is up for the roll of the dice, not up for your skill to "tank" it. And the closer you get the less relevant it gets anyway. At any rate, hindenburg is a T10 cruiser and somehow the idea that it's an overgrown hipper seems for you to be unnaceptable, when it's exactly the case. yes, it will bounce 406mm off the center deck. Yes, that helps. No, it doesn't mean you can "Tank" a montana. Holy crap no you cannot. Very no. Much no. Completely no. "hindenburg can win fights vs other cruiser" Jeeze so it can Hipper. What the... "203mm built in IFHE is only valid against"... You're missing ships in that list. like Kronshtadt, just to name one. But besides that, one of the most often critizised facts about T8 ships is that how much they get uptiered (and even after the 0.7.11 patch, they still see far too much uptiering), and out of the uptiered matchmaking sample, the % of ships that don't care about your upgraded HE penetration is FAR lower than the 89% you're presenting here. That on one hand. On the other hand you're including DDs in the mix when honestly, DPM against dds is anything but really meaningful because simply stated any dd is lunch for any proper driven cruiser (ok, the japanese gunboat line is an exception but hipper is no more nor any less in trouble vs them than any other t8 cruiser. Less in fact given that at least has hydro to rush the smoke of those machineguns), even more for a cruiser with 6km hydro. or, in other words, the real part of it is that it matters a lot more than what you're giving credit for. "kutuzov has more range. chapayev is close" It's also a ship you can't purchase since years now. And we all know why kutuzov has that range (meaning, stupid WG policy regarding premium ships). very poor comparison and given kutu's rarity, almost irrelevant. chapayev needs that range and even then is not really safe even from that distance given how damn sluggish that thing is. Another poor comparison, and even then, is almost half a km of distance, and at least for me those 400 extra meters DO make a difference in quite many situations I find myself into (both in chapayev and when I had my hipper). "torpedoes that can only be used in suicide rushing" and in corner camping. And in smoke torpedoing (when your hydro is off), and in predictive shots when moving from island cover to island cover... amd a long, very long list of situations that is a far cry from a "suicide rush". Such as jumping a Bismarck or a Richelieu in a situation where any other torpedo cruiser would be put into geostationary orbit with an AP volley to the nose...but won't against a hipper. And those situations are *very* common. that you bring up british torpedoes is funny because they aren't stealth (they can be fired from smoke, yes, but that's a far cry from being "stealth"), and you get only 3 per side. Hipper gets 6. And that's a HUGE difference (the point I most disliked about Roon, actually, was that loss of torpedo power) "6km hydro that it's a poor consolation" I swear, if the DM had the option between german hydro and radar, I'd be hard pressed to choose between both. Radar is far more useful early game . Hydro is FAR more useful lategame. I really don't know what you're doing with your hydro in your german cruisers (and BBs), but certainly for mine they're a godsend. "AP has the caveat that".... yes. AP is situational in hipper, so is in every other german cruiser. It's either useful against distracted enemies or if you actively work on achieving a good crossfire yourself. Doesn't detract from the fact that it is BRUTAL. Oh, and also, light cruiser AP won't pen anywhere close to what german 203mm guns do. Not that german 8 inch guns have particularily good pen when compared with other 8'' guns (specially american), but a 6'' cruiser is nowhere ANYWHERE close to achieve the kind of spectacular citadels Hipper can (and will) get out of broadside on enemies. Including battleships if close enough. "if the enemy team lets you farm their broadsides all the time..." erm...it's up to you to work the angles and the battle to find flanking positions where the enemy will have to give you the broadside no matter what. If an enemy Iowa is nose in towards an enemy ,say Izumo, and you're off his side, do you think he's going to angle against you?. Because if you do so, think again. Again, AP is a no go early game. moving from midgame onwards when the battle evolves and gaps form, there's almost always a chance to win flanking shots that the enemy can't avoid taking. It's up to you to work those crossfires and position yourself to exploit them, because once you do so, the damage you rake is ungodly. yes, I know other cruisers aren't as reliant on crossfires to get AP to pen. But those other cruisers do almost a whooping 20% less damage per hit (if not more) than a Hipper will. Quid pro quo. "Hindenburg is more competitive at t10 than hipper is at t8". maybe, but is not a massive difference. Hindenburg is an excellent T10 cruiser. But Hipper is still a very good T8 cruiser. Maybe not as competitive in T8 as Hinden as T10, but certainly is no slouch. And is nowhere near needing a buff.
  13. RAMJB

    Were the buffs to Hipper and Eugen enough?

    "load HE obliterate cruiser" I don't know what world you live in but in mine HE won't stop a cruiser coming for your skin with 12 torps total if you can't overmatch it. Unless it's SERIOUSLY hurting, if you're in, say, an Alsace, and you have a reasonably healthy hipper at 9km coming at full speed for you your only real choice is to turn tails and run before he's in torpedo range. Because once he's within 6km, you're dead. And you must turn away with ALL the implications (including giving broadside to him and others that might see you turning). And that's against an Alsace. Go figure out what happens against a Bismarck or a Monarch. "overmatching guns will citpen through the bow" that's where you must know when and against what to angle in nose in, and against what you must show your belt hoping for a bounce (at best) or just normal AP pens (at worse). Obviously against BBs with overmatching guns a Hipper is in VERY serious trouble - but it still is far lesser trouble than any other T8 cruiser in the same situation, because with the turtleback in play and how low the citadel is no cits will happen, while other ships will be in danger of getting blown to pieces. That should count. And that **Does** count. I "Hipper has pen and range and that's it, HE does little damage" Having almost 18km of range is no joke for a T8 cruiser. At all. You can lob HE from ranges other same tier cruisers are useless. On top of that your HE won't do much damage per shell but they pen up to 51mm of armor instead of 33, which means a far larger % of penetrating HE instead of bounced off 0 damages, even enabling Hipper to reliably hurt Moskvas... which more than compensates for the low per shell damage when compared with other T8 cruisers. "Hydro is nice but not special" Absolute nuts. Hydro pretty much means nothing can be within 6km range of your ship without being detected. It pretty much emasculates "enterprising" stealthy DDs (kageros, lightnings and the such) and forces them to stay at longer ranges than usual because otherwise they're toast. "regular" hydro doesn't even come anywhere close to that. At all. "cleveland hasn't got the armor but has dpm and stealth" cleveland has no defense whatsoever against rushers, it's completely naked and powerless against BBs the second it moves away from hard cover, has laughable range and might aswell be covered in tissue paper. Remember what I said about hipper not being a specialist but a generalist?. cleveland is a specialist. In it's niche is fantastic. out of it it's dead. Hipper doesn't have that problem. Yes, DDs hate cleveland, but precisely because of that, and because it being pretty much an hp pinhata when caught in the open means a neon sign above it saying "shoot me", clevelands are stuck to very precise positions of the map from which they can't move. They're main primaries (as any other radar ship). Hipper is not such a primary target, and it still is a massive threat to DDs, an ideal cap "sweeper", and a perfect counter to smoke campers or enterprising flankers. You get the anti-DD goodies without being called a main target 24/7. I call that more than a fair trade. Also what's that about "they can't overmatch you"?. 16mm of bow armor stops very few things. chapayev shares the same problem of cleveland but on steroids. Is as much a primary or more, has even less armor, and has the turning cirle of a drunk whale. And it doesn't work well behind cover because those railguns are both a blessing and a curse - sure they have fast as heck speeds but they don't have the arc to fire from behind most cover and even then the second you're spotted chances are whatever you're firing at can fire back at you. Atago has horrible reload. If DPM is your main concern about hipper I don't even know why it even is in this conversation. Also, that HE is bounced by anything with more than 33mm armor, so whenever you're hitting at most stuff (like, another atago), you'll get a much larger proportion of 0 damage hits than Hipper, thus more than compensating for the higher per shell damage. What Atago (and 203mm mogami) has is better fire chances. They're FAR better firestarters. And they are faster and more sneaky. But that's about it. THeir role is what it is- long range HEspammer. Caught close in an atago is dead. Hipper can do that role AND can do other stuff competently. Again, specialist vs generalist. BTW, Japanese 41mm deck plays a part at very long ranges only - once they're at medium/close enough range it's worthless. And at long range you have tasty 25mm ship ends, which are pretty large compared with the main 41mm deck itself and vulnerable to any BB shell that hits, short of a scharnhorst's volley. Or, in other words, Mogami and Atago both are restricted to one role: long range HEspammer - Hipper is not...while I'd debate seriously anyone who tries to convince me that a cruiser with 17.7km of range and built-in IFHE 203mm guns is a "worse" long range HE spamer than one with 15.7km range and no IFHE, 41mm deck or not. And that IFHE part is capital...remember, Hipper's guns can put HE straight through that deck (50+mm of armor penetration, remember?). Hell, HIpper can put HE straight through almost any ship's deck. Atago certainly cannot. So even in what should be the Atago's "niche", the Hipper offers certain hard to overlook pros to the table. That's quite something, being as it is that an atago isn't anywhere as survivable as a Hipper when caught at closer ranges. and I insist, "normal" hydro is nothing like german one. Detecting torpedoes at such a range as to make the ship pretty much invulnerable to them while active (unless seriously shoddy driving happens) and giving their presence away for allies is a godsend. Effectively capping ALL destroyer's concealment up to 6km ,is another godsend. The extra range is insanely helpful when dealing with smoked up enemies. Hydro ,because of the much longer duration, is FAR better than radar for doing"cap sweeps", and contesting caps when there still are enemy DDs in play. And a long etcetera. Again, in that regard, hipper's hydro is by far and large the best of the GAME. You don't get it better at T10. And you can use at T8. It's a staggering trait for the ship wether you want to aknowledge it or not. "any good T8 cruisers demand that" True, but out of them all Hipper is the one that can commit to the offensive the soonest, because the benefits of it's armor at close ranges aren't matched by any other T8 cruiser. In short, you can go straight into the fight much sooner than any other cruiser of the same tier because any other cruiser at close range is dead meat while a hipper is at it's best. "hindenburg has 30mm midsection" And 4 more guns, 4 more torpedoes, a lot more hitpoints and a heal. That's why Hindenburg is a T10 ship, and Hipper is T8. Doesn't prevent the fact that Hindenburg *IS* nothing short of an overscaled hipper in how it plays. Which should give a hint of how powerful Hipper can be two tiers lower. Also you repeat "DPM this DPM that" a lot. I insist, on paper HE DPM is one thing. ACTUAL, REAL, HE DPM is a whole different matter. When your HE goes through 50mm of armor it rakes a MUCH higher effective DPM than when your HE goes through 33mm of armor, no matter you have one less gun than your heavy cruiser opposition, or 4 less than your light cruiser counterparts, and no matter your HE damage is anemic. Anemic damage that pens is damage. Strong damage that bounces is nothing. That those HE shells can hit stuff at 17.7km instead of 15km-ish, is just another nail in the head of the idea of "DPM". If you're out of range, your DPM is 0. And Hipper rarely finds itself out of range of anything he wants to shoot. The same can't be said about the whole lot of other T8s. "it's a ship with one questionable trick but otherwise no clear strenghts" Ok, let's sum it up again; hipper and PE's "other tricks" are: 50mms of penetration with HE (only cruiser, alongside it's bigger german brothers, that can clearcut hurt even bow in Moskvas with HE without IFHE, regardless where they hit, in the whole "normal" cruiser class in the whole game. Just to name one instance of why that's of capital importance). 17.7km range (longest in the tier, and apart of Martel, longest by a quite remarkable stretch too) Turtleback armor on a mostly underwater citadel which means that at anything but long range it's extremely hard to citadel (not impossible, but extremely hard). 6 torpedoes per side (second best of any T8 cruiser, behind the japanese ones) which on top of that have lightning quick reload and synergize extremely well with the great close-in armor layout for rushes. 6km hydro at T8 (being as it is by far the best and most useful hydro in the whole game, only present in the german t8-t10 cruisers and the t9-t10 BBs). highest healthpool in the tier (only lagging behind PE and Atago because of their heal) highest AP damage per shell of any non-german "normal" cruiser. Including T10 ones except Henri. (obviously the "battlecruisers" are a whole different matter and should be another class, but that's besides the point). .... it sure seems like a bunchload of "clear strenghts" to me, to add to the "questionable trick" of being impervious to anything short of 406mm AP when properly angled... But that's just to me. You might be inclined to think otherwise. In that case, I insist, leave the line alone, because Roon and Hindenburg will MASSIVELY dissapoint you because their playstile, strenghts and weaknesses are exactly the same.
  14. RAMJB

    Good DD players - Asashio - yes or no?

    And that sums it up. You're still too new to the game to have a proper appreciation of what makes a high tier destroyer relevant, and what is a huge noobie-trap that seems great, but actually is of little importance for the class. no offense intended, but until you have some better first hand experience (and results) on at least a couple of DD lines in the high tiers, your opinion doesn't mean much...
  15. RAMJB

    Good DD players - Asashio - yes or no?

    don't forget the british ap wonders, those won't even need to fire HE, so that plating is of no real use... and when it angles it will use HE as every british DD has IFHE and 116mm guns with IFHE do pen 25mm of armor...